Northernstar emailed Justin Trudeau in July 2013 regarding her concerns about FATCA. Today she received the following email in response:
Dear XXXXXXX,
Thank you for taking the time to write to me with your concerns regarding the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA).
Despite its good intentions, the unfortunate consequence of FATCA is that Americans who hold dual citizenship still fall under its authority, and it requires access to their financial information through their banks. As a result of FATCA, there has been a surge in US citizenship renunciations over the past few years, and this trend continues to grow.
I share your concerns about personal privacy, an issue that is increasingly important to all Canadians. The Conservative government’s efforts to protect the personal privacy of Canadians have been inadequate. The implications of having Canadian banks report directly to a foreign government agency are troublesome. The Liberal Party of Canada will continue to press the government on this issue, and demand a closer examination of FATCA’s effects.
Thank you once again for writing to me and taking the time to share your concerns with me. It is through such exchanges of ideas and opinions that I can best represent not only my constituents, but all Canadians.
Sincerely,
Justin P. J. Trudeau
Member of Parliament for Papineau
Leader of the Liberal Party of Canada
Offline, a friend of Isaac Brock Society says:
It is one thing for the USA to say to individuals across the planet: if you have status under our law you must follow all of our laws no matter where you are. It is another thing entirely for Canada as a nation to voluntarily, with no compensation except the conditional promise of removal of a threat of economic sanctions, assist the United States in globally rounding people up to force them to comply with its patently untenable and unjustifiable position. Such assistance fundamentally conflicts with a universally recognized (and far more just) jurisdictional claim based on actual residence, which Canada practices along with the rest of the world.
I am not certain if Petros meant filling taxes or other forms. But a lot of long term Canadian resident will be effected by the1995 US tax treaty. Which Pierre Trudeau did not oppose to the best of my knowledge.
“If I had relinquished before 1995, I would under no circumstances yield to any of these filing requirements. It may be necessary to obtain a CLN to prove to the bank that one is not a US citizen and to idiot US border guards who insist that you are US citizen because of your place of birth. But I wouldn’t give even one single inch of latitude to the lame brains in the IRS. Why? Because I don’t see how the Form 8854 requirement could stand scrutiny of jurisprudence, since the requirement clearly contradicts itself. But then, the courts are known for making lame decisions.”
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/14/instructions-for-form-8854-are-clearly-contradictory/
My comment at 6:43 are part of overall comment at 6:30 regarding our constitution not having property right and Trudeau not saying anything when his party signed the 1995 US Canada tax treaty. Even though he was vocal on other issues.
Aw come on folks, lighten up a little. JT’s problem is that he’s just a kid. He’s clearly not up to speed on this particular issue. Stupid? Probably not. Asshole? Maybe, but one can’t conclude that because he knows nothing about FATCA or it’s implications; most people don’t. A friend of mine tells me JT is the next PM of Canada whenever JT’s name comes up in conversation. My response is that he’s not yet ready for prime time. Seasoned politicians both domestic and international would eat him alive.
The trouble with JT is that whenever he gets out of range of his babysitters, he opens his mouth and digs himself into yet another hole. (What’s that old Mark Twain saying about if people suspect you of being a fool it’s better to keep your mouth shut, rather than open it and remove all doubt!) There are many issues that he needs to be educated about. At least he gets it re: pot!
So while the Conservatives would benefit from spending some time in opposition, Trudeau isn’t our guy. (And I consider myself to be on the conservative end of things.) He would benefit from listening to what the NDP and Greens have to say on the subject. No harm in stealing a position if it’s a good one. He can’t listen to Harper because Harper is saying nothing. At least he’s learning; a week or two ago he thought FATCA was about people who made money in the US.
Sadly, in terms of taxes and reporting, we do. If any other country were to do something similar, my guess is Canada’s response would be the same. Money matters don’t seem to fall under the same heading as other laws or sovereignty issues.
Budget Day is coming up. We will know for sure then and perhaps the issue will get more media. But I think we are wasting our time with Trudeau. He takes a long time to decide on issues and this appears to be a more recent one on the front burner for all the parties really.
He can’t help us any more than May or Mulcair. The power rests with the Cons and perhaps they’ve made their decision and perhaps not. Maybe we need a petition? Emailing campaign? Chain ourselves to pillars on Parliament Hill?
@ GeorgeIII
Thank you for bringing up that issue about property rights. I was very active in protesting that “omission”, back in the day. Also, the fact that the Canadian constitution was written by the government instead of by a peoples’ assembly. Makes you wonder if our gov’t, like the US gov’t, considers its citizens to be its property while merely allowing them to enjoy their property until it says, “Not yours, mine!” It is precisely that attitude which made it possible for Harper to put legislation in place for a Cyprus-style “bail-in” should our banks ever become “distressed”.
Re: Lying if asked if you are a “US person”. It seems to me that in order to accuse one of lying, it would be necessary to admit to asking an unlawful question for the purpose of discrimination. It has been discussed elsewhere on Brock what an appropriate response might be to such a question. Answering a question at the bank is hardly swearing under oath under penalty of perjury. So what would the charge be? Fibbing?
The bigger point is the liberal approved the 1995 US tax treaty. I never saw anything from Trudeau on that. Opposition Party can always oppose something they may support if in power.
The Cyproit Bank deal the bond & stockholder losses everything, big depositor get hit small depositor not effected. The small depositor not effected. The banks continue because it would be hard to have a country without banks. The Banks had Greek Government debt it sometime make me wonder about safety of Provincial Bonds.
“Laiki, or Cyprus Popular Bank, is to be closed. Its €4.2bn in deposits over €100,000 will be placed in a “bad bank” and could be wiped out entirely. Those with smaller deposits will see their accounts transferred to Bank of Cyprus.
“The Cypriot government reportedly fought hard for Bank of Cyprus to be spared, but the island’s biggest bank will face huge restructuring. No bailout money will be used to recapitalise it; instead shareholders and bondholders will be hit. It is thought depositors with more than €100,000 at the bank will also be involved in the recapitalisation, and are expected to face losses of around 30%.”
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/25/cyprus-bailout-deal-eu-closes-bank
@maz57
You are being way too kind given that Trudeau wants to be (and could very well be!) the next Prime Minister.
maz57
They may send you a w8 form which has the word perjury asking you if you are a US person taxwise which means a 8854. be completed (there may even be a newer form which is 8854 on steriod). Since the w8 is an IRS form will Canadian Court not recognize it due to the revenue rule. Can someone ask a Lawyer?
As a (sadly) non Canadian – I don’t know who this guy is but I can only hope those negotiating with the US Treasury do not take this absurd view. IF they do, my friends in Canada must be prepared for the worst and let the class actions begin.
If someone handed me a W-8 (whatever that is) as soon as I saw IRS at the top I’d take a red marking pen and scrawl N/A over the damn thing. That’s not lying, is it? I think sticking a steel bar into the spokes of the FATCA wheel would be an appropriate response.
Re: Trudeau. If that’s the way the people of Canada vote, then they’ll get what they deserve.
Perhaps someone may want to contact the new Governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney (ex Bank of Canada) and ask him what his position is on FATCA and Canada? Also how he believes FATCA may impact on the UK Banking sector?
maz57
If you do not return the form they can consider you recalcitrant.
The W8 ben goes to the bank.
The question again is what does Canadian Court position on false information on an IRS form. Especially if you do not own US assets and no taxes would be due?
The Banks may instead ask you to self certify you are not a US person. A non US person means a 8854 was done.
from UKFACTA
a)Where account holder information unambiguously indicates a
U.S.
place of birth
, the Reporting United Kingdom Financial Institution
obtains or has previously reviewed and maintains a record of:
(1)a self-certification that the account holder is neither a U.S.
citizen nor a U.S. resident for tax purposes (which may be on an
IRS Form W-8 or other similar agreed form)
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Documents/FATCA-Agreement-UK-9-12-2012.pdf
Mulcair is the one who controls the question period, right? Perhaps I missed the question. Maybe it was buried in between one of the dozens he has peppered Harper with about the Senate, but when did he ask Harper about FATCA and what did Harper say?
So far, all we have are statements. Emails. Lists of form questions submitted to this or that Minister. Who has questioned the govt during question period on FATCA? Who has questioned the govt during the daily dog and pony hour with the press?
Brison is the Liberal Finance Critic. What has he said, out loud? Or May? Or the NDP Finance Critic?
Paper responses are all well and good but who in our House of Commons has uttered a word out loud? Asked a question?
@ GeorgeIII. I think you may be getting a little too paranoid here. Why would a bank even shove an IRS form under my nose? I’m a Canadian citizen in Canada. I don’t have US assets. Besides, “NOT APPLICABLE” would be a true statement. I don’t think the banks are going to try very hard on this whole business. They don’t like it any more than we do, and there is absolutely no upside in it for them. Are they going to interrogate every one of their customers to see if they are a “US person”? Nope, they’ll give it a half-hearted shot if there’s some “indicia” and move on to something that will actually make them some money.
As for 8854, after you renounce or relinquish you are supposed to file one with your final US tax return. If you don’t they (the IRS) deem you a “covered expatriate”. So what? You are still no longer a US citizen.
@YogaGirl,
this is one way to get at some of that, http://openparliament.ca/search/?q=fatca
but only if they used the specific term FATCA. And spelled it right. Sometimes they’re talking about it and CBT and FBAR, but don’t use those terms.
I don’t really know much about searching for the answers that are submitted to questions raised in Parliament, like the ones by MP Mai, Hsu and Brison. Problem is you have to know how the Journals, Hansard and other publications of Parliament are organized, indexed, etc. Searching the Canadian Parliament site by keyword does not search inside all the publications in their entirety. One way to ask for help would be to ask a Reference librarian working in the Reference/NonFiction department of a university or large urban centre library.
http://samuelclemmons.wordpress.com/2014/01/07/poker-losers-poker-winners-fatca-is-willing-to-put-the-us-international-markets-on-the-hook-us-treasury-jesse-eggart/
If you have an hour, this guy talks about how he blew over the sovereignty arguments.
“PUT the US financial markets on the hood” for the 30% economic sanctions.
Justin Trudeau sounds like a Class A under-performing son of wasted privilege to me. In short a veritable kindergartner. It makes me sick that a major political party would allow such a man to be its leader …. presumably merely on the basis of name recognition.
Having dumped my bile. I wonder if Trudeau was merely poorly expressing himself …. when saying that duals fall under the “authority” of FATCA ……. I wonder whether he meant that they are targeted by FATCA under US law …… yet I still read the remainder of the letter to suggest that he is delicately brushing his lips across the topic whilst committing himself to nothing re the protection of ALL Canadians. Is Trudeau himself a dual? I seem to remember seeing in my youth an awful lot of media reports of his mother in New York and elsewhere USA … I wont comment as to her dress code … the appearance seeming almost as if she were living there.
Canada says it will not collect for the IRS. So how many of you with no ties to America are just not going to pay – even if your name and address is known to them?
@polly
It seems the American lawmakers think we all want to return to the USA because of our ties to it, be it family and friends or property.
Not all of feel that way. I have no desire to go back.
@ Polly
as i have said many times before i now have made the commitment to never return to the us of a and i will activly encourage as many of my friends to consider travel either inside our home province, the rest of canada or the world before they cross the border to the states.
as for the banks if they ask me for any information of my nationality all they will be getting is my “certificate of canadian citizenship” and nothing else. if they so much as put a form in front of my with any indication of the united states or irs on it all they will be getting from me is me standing up and walking out of the bank.
if my accountant can somehow figure out the ins and outs of protecting the not for profit entitiy we have set up i will renounce and cease to be an american with the intention of not filing anything with the irs after the consulate appointment. i really don’t care about becoming tax compliant with the americans. (i can not afford the accounting fees let alone any potential penalities) after all i will never be returning to america and am assuming (bad word and thinking i know but….)that the cra will be good to their word and not go after canadians for the irs.
i know this is the ostrich thing to do but i am willing to bet that there are loads of us ostrich’s out there and we are just waiting to morph into wolverines given the right climate or non support from ottowa.
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As much as I’m tempted to jump on Justin over this, he does have a fully valid point.
The point is, there are conveniences in store for those with dual citizenship, and then there are inconveniences. FATCA being a serious inconvenience.
We can argue the issues of ‘dominant nationality’, and we may even be right, but it simply doesn’t matter. As a dual citizen, you are answerable to both nations. If their laws conflict, that is YOUR problem. If you don’t want to comply with the laws of one of the nations that you currently hold an allegiance to, then you MUST renounce your allegiance to that nation. We don’t get to cherry pick which laws to follow, which laws we don’t, and then delude ourselves into thinking there will be no consequences in what we do!!
Most duals at least have a choice to to either keep, or lose, one of their nationalities. I would argue that ALL duals should have that same choice as a matter of fairness, so that situations like what calgary411 has to endure, don’t ever have to happen. Maybe this is jealousy coming out of me, but I wish I had that choice, because from where I’m sitting, I either have to endure US citizenship until I get to have Canadian citizenship, and thus have the choice for myself to make, or, I get to choose statelessness, instead.
My ONLY hope in regards to FATCA is that it never gets to be implemented. Otherwise, if or when it does get implemented, I will have no choice but to comply, because I don’t get to enjoy the protection of another government. I will either comply, or else I will have no choice but to close my account, fold up my tents, tell my wife ‘goodbye’, and head back to that goddamn miserable plantation to be sealed up behind their financial Berlin Wall.
My apologies for pissing people off, but I had to speak my mind on this matter.