48 thoughts on “Kim Moody says Canada MUST Comply with FATCA”

1. @Tim
   Thanks for this new post.
   Seems that these guys will benfit financially with FATCA.
   Also in the article it seems there is a law proposed to get rid of some “poor” tax preparers. I wonder if that also means doing our own through Tubo Tax.

   I feel my chest being supressed like a boot on it.

2. Pingback: Kim Moody and Roy Berg say Canada MUST Comply w...

3. We all know FATCA is a great addition to the Moody LLP business plan and there’s nothing wrong with that. Like the article stated FATCA is coming in some form. What we need is to have more Canadians holding US Citizenship renounce. That way the IRS and US Government have nothing to aquire from Canada. Also, I think as Canadian’s, we need to start limiting US citizens access to employment in Canada…no wait…FATCA does that for us and all over the world. Let FATCA come because I’m sure that the US with its short minded fixes for just about everything will see the damage their own ignorance has brought them.

4. To be fair, the above post is “realist” language speaking, and I understand the POV. Having given Treasury 4 years to build FATCA/GATCA momentum without hardly a peep out of political opposition, and NONE in the MSM in the US, Canada is in a tough space.

   Even the Republican call for Repeal, may now be too little too late. They WERE NOT successful with repealing ObamaCare, and EVERYONE knew about it’s coming and cockup arrival. FATCA, on the other hand, still operates by Stealth.

   The odds are against Canadian opposition to FATCA. Moody’s tax prognostication is what they think will happen, and clear eyed consideration must be given that they might be right. Of course, no one can predict the future, but is there the political will to really stand up against the American bully? You tell me. Is their a “Polly’ in leadership up there, north of the border, that in the end, will stand on principle?

   There certainly is NONE in New Zealand anymore, with John Key just a golfing buddy of Obama now. (or is he really just a caddy?)

   Frankly, we are faced with a world wide Compliance Complex mentality. The global bureaucrat elite’s opinion is all rushing towards banking transparency and auto exchanges without regard to global economic consequences. As we have learned, America is quite happy to inflict damage on itself (or a global economy) in pursuit of an ideologues objectives, cost be damned. Look at what the elimination of Glass Steagall did to a global economy in spite of the Warning on bank derivative trading. Look at cost of our War on Drugs, to say NOTHING about our War on Terror.

   FATCA maybe another example of a long list of bad policies and Wars the U.S.has embarked on and EVERYONE, not just U.S. Persons will bear the cost. Don’t like it, but I don’t underestimate the difficulty of trying to dam a rushing stream with our small pebbles of resistance. These FATCAnatics don’t care, and as we have seen folks like JEG are quite happy to support the effort, damage be damned! And don’t forget the War Profiteers, the FCC. This movie could just as well be called FATCA Compliance for Sale. There is money to be made in compliance, and they are licking their chops. “Sign up for our help now!”

5. We need to bring back the colonial custom of tar and feathers.

6. Well, there you have it, folks. According to Kim Moody, we’re all just wasting our time here. Let’s just pack it in now, buy a few cases of lube and just let the US have its way with us and with every country in the world. After all, it’s FAR more important for sovereign nations to allow the imposition of extraterritorial American law than to let a handful of rich homeland Americans squirrel-away their millions in world-renowned tax havens like Canada.

   I managed to avoid being sick all through the Christmas holidays but I’m feeling rather nauseous right now.

   Kim Moody might think he’s just “telling it like it is” and being all Mr. RealPolitik and simply looking out for the best interests of his clients; but I have another term for people like him: spineless traitors. Expect to see many more of his kind come out of the woodwork in the coming weeks and months.

7. I’m logged on to the article, but can’t comment for some reason. Any clues?

8. well gosh darn there you have it. Mr. Moody considers fatca a done deal and will be inevitable.

   guess what mr moody

   until i am draged kicking and screaming and under extreem duress will my bank get any information out of me except for me presenting them with my canadian citzenship certificate and card. period. no more.

   i aquired it in 1980 and have a copy of it in my desk at work with the orginal in my saftey deposit box and it says i am a citizen of canada and until the canadian gov’t changes the law that i have to tell the bank that i am an american as well there is no way i am going to comply with telling the bank that i am an american citizen!!!

   i am canadian first and reluctlantly an american because i can not afford to renounce!

9. @Just Me

   I do appreciate the “realist” point of view you are portraying, despite my previous post. That’s why I believe anti-FATCA efforts, if they are going to be at all successful, are going to have to be taken up several notches from here on in. While none of us wants to really face it, I believe we are at a crossroads – we will soon have to consider some very loud and public civil disobedience in order to generate sufficient publicity and conversation about FATCA. Think Occupy Wall Street, Idle No More or Pussy Riot. The real question is, how many of us are actually prepared to go that extra distance, risking potential arrest and incarceration to drive home the message to our fellow citizens in our home countries and around the world?

   Let me be crystal clear, especially for our friends at the alphabet agencies who no doubt monitor our humble little blog; I am not advocating anything beyond classic passive-resistance civil actions such as sit-ins, or unauthorized demonstrations, or NOT staying on the outer 18 inches of a goddam public sidewalk. We certainly will not attract any sympathy if we are at all thought of as some kind of anarchists, but I don’t think our demographic is likely to create that impression anyway. However, the visuals of a few “sit-tight” grannies and their supporters being arrested and led-away by police may be just the thing to finally focus some badly-needed attention on this issue.

   Or, we can just continue to preach to the converted and quietly wait for the Orcs to finally break-down our front doors. If so, this blog, and others like it, will simply become a quaint historical record of an epic failure to fight against tyranny and we will have no-one but ourselves to blame for not trying hard enough.

10. I’ve got my sign ready to take over to the US consulate in Vancouver. Any company?

11. @All
    I once saw picture of a painting of a cowboy boot with the lette W carved on it. The boot was crushing the staute of Liberty while she is pinned to the ground with W’s boot on her neck. This article made me think of the statue of liberty standing on our Canadian maple leaf and crushing it.

    It is time to rise up but even friends and family don’t seem to care. Perhaps taking out all our money at once togethre might get noticed.

    I am waiting for the CLN paper backdated to 1993.. I don’t trust the USA to even allow me it. I complied with taxes to and including that date, never owing money to the USA.
    I can think what it just have been to feel like living in Germany in the 30s and 40s. The world let it happen.

12. @ Calgary Brockers
    I’m digging out the long -johns. Is anyone interested in walking the beat with me at Calgary’s
    American Consulate?

13. Mr. Moody can say all he wants that Canada must comply with FATCA.

    Likewise, Peter Hogg says Canada must not comply with FATCA. Mr. Hogg literally wrote the book on constitutional law in Canada. He is the author of Canadian Constitutional law, which is used in law schools across the country.

    Plus,”Peter W. Hogg’s Constitutional Law of Canada remains the classic text in its field, and the one to which practitioners turn for authoritative guidance on the complex issues and concepts which comprise Canadian constitutional law.”

    http://www.carswelldeskcopy.com/bookdescription.aspx?DocId=11274

    Mr. Hogg made a submission to Finance Canada. He was clear. Complying with FATCA violates Canada’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms. He recommended an IGA that would report to IRS only on assets held by US residents.

    That approach would resolve Mr. Moody’s great fear of the “bad actors” who want to “flock” to that absurd Canadian tax haven, but would respect the rights of Canadian citizens and residents.

    Here is Mr Hogg’s letter: http://bit.ly/XvX28E

    We need to keep the pressure on the government to ensure they respect those rights.

14. Yes. Are you in Calgary, Disgusted? Make that a couple layers of long-johns. Let’s pick a more Chinook-like day? Any other takers? I wish the Calgary US Consulate were at a part of 7th Avenue SW that would gather more notice of people who might wake up to this — like just a few blocks west of the seedy US Consulate.

15. I have no doubt that Canada will eventually sign some sort of IGA with the US. The fact that we are now into 2014 and it has not yet happened indicates to me that there is serious disagreement as to what the terms of that agreement will be. Because of the close relationship between the two countries Canada should have been one of the first to sign on to FATCA, not one of the last. The bad faith actions of the IRS over the last few years would make any government contemplating an agreement very wary. I don’t think our government is terribly concerned about some bogus deadline imposed by the US government. They want to get it right. The fact that Harper and Obama detest each other is working in our favor. Keystone is Harper’s pet project and Obama has back-burnered it. Anyone think Harper’s in a mood to cave on FATCA?

    The truth of the matter is that Canada and the US have a long-standing treaty that has served both countries very well. I don’t think the Canadian government is in any hurry to sign anything which will override or change the terms of that treaty to Canada’s disadvantage. In particular, I don’t believe our government is going to allow the US to turn the CRA into a collection arm of the IRS. So the fear-mongering tone of this article is just one more compliance industry self-promotion. In the end it’s only a prediction for 2014. Here’s mine:

    The existing treaty specifically states that Canada will not collect a tax liability if that liability occurred while a Canadian citizen. Our finance minister has repeated that several times over the last few years, and I don’t think that is going to change. (In other words, if you think one of our citizens owes you money, good luck trying collect it but you aren’t getting any help from us.) I also don’t think Canada is going to willingly agree to a wholesale hand over of information to the US government. How hard is the CRA going to work for zero benefit to Canada? What’s the US going to offer in exchange? Any promises by the US of reciprocity are meaningless; Canada doesn’t tax it’s citizens who live in the US. Besides, the relative tax rates between the two countries usually result in little to no US tax owing. If the gathering of all that data resulted in the IRS assessing a tax liability on a Canadian, the CRA wouldn’t collect it anyway. The IRS knows this and hasn’t the resources to chase after a million so called “US persons” in Canada. I think the only risk will be for people resident in one country who fail to declare income sourced in the other country. That’s not a bad thing.

    CBT may be US law but it’s not Canadian law. Canada feels no obligation to enforce US law in Canada. Information exchange is already covered by the existing treaty. The US knows full well that Canada is not a tax haven. The only reason our government will sign an IGA is to make it unnecessary for our banks to deal directly with the IRS. Canada’s leverage in all this is that FATCA will fall flat on it’s face if the US can’t even get Canada to sign up. So yeah, Canada will sign, but there will be some serious carve-outs that will preserve the terms of the existing treaty. I also suspect Canada is holding out for additional carve-outs for all the other Canadian tax-advantaged investments besides RRSPs that the IRS doesn’t recognize. As awareness of all these issues has grown over the last few years the shabby treatment by the IRS of our registered plans has become well known. (“Seeing as how you’ve raised the issue of tax reporting we have a few things we want you to fix”.) I mean, really, if Canada can’t even run it’s own programs within it’s own borders without interference by a foreign government, we might as well just hand over the keys to the US. I think our government has come to realize that any money the US can extract out of Canada is to our detriment. The Canadian government feels no obligation to aid and abet the US in it’s CBT jihad.

    In the end all the US government threats about 30% withholding won’t happen. Does anyone think the US will risk destroying the financial markets to make good on that threat? As soon as they start stealing people’s money there will be an international run on US banks that will bring them to their knees as soon as the news spreads.

16. I do agree with Just Me that the Moody’s blog entry is their “prediction” and not necessarily all they believe in their hearts. They perhaps have more knowledge of what the Canadian Government might do (or perhaps not). I also agree with Deckard and believe we have to step it up if only to know within ourselves that we are doing / did all we possibly could have to somehow protect our families and ourselves — and those who won’t EVER have any way of getting into extra-territorial US tax return, including for some FBAR compliance, either with their own knowledge to do all required themselves or, even less likely, able to afford professional help.

17. @all after reading mr hogg’s letter the following thought struck me

    as much as i am disgusted by this whole fatca situation it is a fasinating plunge into various parts of canadian law that i knew nothing about. for better or worse i am more enlightened with each passing day just how messed up things really are south of the border.

    i certainly hope that in 30 years time i will be able to look back at this issue much like i look back at the saint boniface manitoba man (i was growing up in wpg at the time) did when he took his parking ticket to court because it was not written in 2 languages in that our situation is we are standing up to a foreign county and saying “we are mad as he## and we are not going to take it anymore.”

18. @maz57
    Maz57 wrote: “If the gathering of all that data resulted in the IRS assessing a tax liability on a Canadian, the CRA wouldn’t collect it anyway. The IRS knows this and hasn’t the resources to chase after a million so called “US persons” in Canada.”

    Is is not just a matter of lacking resources; it seems very unlikely that there is any existing legal mechanism for the US to collect a tax claim from a Canadian citizen residing in Canada.

    The is no point in any foreign government chasing any kind of tax collection from Canadians resident in Canada. Only the Government of Canada can collect tax in Canada.

    To date, Canadian courts will not enforce foreign tax revenue claims in Canada under the “Revenue Rule”. A common law doctrine, the Revenue Rule allows courts to decline entertaining foreign tax claim suits or enforcing foreign tax judgments or foreign revenue laws.

    Only with assistance in collection from the CRA can the US collect tax revenue from Canadians in Canada. And the treaty clearly prohibits assistance in collecting US tax claims from Canadian citizens – and this fact has been repeated in every communication from the Minister of Finance regarding this issue.

    If the existing Canada – US Tax Treaty prohibits such collection, it seems unlikely that a Canadian court would bypass both the revenue rule and Tax treaty to enforce a US tax claim against a Canadian citizen.

    So how does the US plan to collect inordinate taxes and penalties from hundreds of thousands Canadian citizens residing in Canada, who have no US assets, income or residence? Does anyone know?

    HERE’S A CHALLENGE: can ANY legal professional provide a single, clear and relevant case demonstrating the successful collection of a US revenue claim from a Canadian citizen in Canada where:
    – the Canadian citizen had no US assets, income or presence
    – the Canadian citizen defended the claim in a Canadian court
    – the CRA refused to provide provide assistance in collection due to Canadian citizenship
    – the Canadian court enforced a US personal income tax or reporting claim

19. If the Revenue Rule trumps FATCA by removing any possibility of the IRS collecting off anyone who was a resident Canadian citizen at the time of the tax claim, why doesn’t Canada flat out refuse to pass data to the IRS on dual national as a starting point? Since the US can’t collect, they don’t need FATCA data.

20. @Calgary 411
    I’m ready at the drop of a hat. I’ll watch for your future posts. I can meet anywhere anytime. Looking forward to it.

21. As a teacher of U.S. politics and U.S. citizen abroad, I am encouraging all overseas Americans to vote in the 2014 PRIMARY elections. The unfortunate truth is that Congress focuses predominantly on those who vote, since members of Congress who ignore voters won’t stay in Congress..

    2014 presents the ultimate (both in terms of best and last) opportunity to do this. It may seem like we couldn’t have much influence, but the head of Democrats Abroad UK claimed during the 2012 Presidential election that a few seats could be affected by overseas Americans. The possibilities of getting our concerns listened to would be even better in 2014, especially if we voted in the PRIMARY elections: in the 2010 primary election, the last midterm primary, only eight percent of Democrats and 10 percent of Republicans voted! There are 5.2 million Americans abroad and only around 30 million Americans voted in the 2010 primaries, so we could have an impact if we mobilised, particularly if we don’t dilute ourselves by voting in primaries without an incumbent. Something like residence-based taxation is probably a pipedream, but a better treatment in terms of transparency, treatment of long-term middle class overseas residents, eliminating some of the gotchas might be achievable..

    Here is the strategy to use. Please distribute and encourage other Americans to vote.

    1. Check who your representative is in the House of Representatives, since all representatives come up for election in 2014. Note the PARTY of your representative.

    http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/

    2. Go to http://www.fvap.gov/ to register to vote overseas. If you have to choose a party affiliation for the primary, select that of your incumbent representative for maximum effect. Nowadays, you must re-register every year to be able to vote in that year’s elections. Do it today so that you don’t forget!

    3. Write to your representative, noting that you have registered to vote in their party’s primary, and express your concerns about current U.S. taxation policies regarding overseas citizens. Write them in the next few months to give them plenty of time to respond.

    4. If they don’t respond or seem unsympathetic, vote for their opponent in the primary or write in another name, perhaps a candidate from a race further down the ballot. An unchallenged incumbent will still undoubtedly get in, but a substantial number of write ins would focus their minds on solving our problems.

    Here is a list of 2014 primaries by date:
    http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2014/2014pdates.pdf

    5. Repeat the strategy for the general election if possible (some of the primaries are very close to the general election, so this may not always work. The primaries are definitely our best shot.)..

    My teaching responsibilities start again on Monday, so unfortunately I will not have time to respond.

22. @Wondering, Maz57: Those are excellent points. However, the problem is FATCA really isn’t about taxes. It’s about information. It’s about control.

    The US government knows it, other governments know it and we know it. The plan is to turn our private financial information over to US national security and law enforcement for investigation of money laundering, terrorist financing, corruption, fraud, and other crimes and misconduct.

    FATCA is about control and punishing “US persons” for having the audacity to dare to live outside United States.

    If you have any question about that, read this letter of demands from Sen. Carl Levin to IRS and US Treasury http://bit.ly/14bs0UM

    Levin wrote that letter on behalf of the Committee on Investigations, which he chairs. I find it chilling in its tone and content–especially page 11. As you read it, remember, Senator Levin is the one Obama credits with being the architect of FATCA.

    I have submitted articles about this to several US publications. None of them have accepted the article.

    I also sent a copy of the letter to Jim Flaherty, Kevin Shoom (Finance Canada), CCLA and others as soon as I became aware of it.

    When Putin is envious of your surveillance, you know you’ve gone too far. Unfortunately, the Americans don’t think they’ve gone too far.

    http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131219/17464625641/when-vladimir-putin-is-envious-your-surveillance-state-youve-gone-too-far.shtml

23. Martin also wants you to stop that “wierd screaming … ”
    http://bit.ly/1f3TAdA

24. @Vote in 2014: You’ve missed an important point here. Many of us are NOT US citizens–or we are former citizens whom the US is trying to reclaim. Yet the US is trying to claim us as “US persons.”

25. To me, it reads like perhaps things are not going well with the Canadian IGA. At one point they point out that Canada shouldn’t be give an exemption because all those who are seeking a tax haven would flock to Canada (as opposed to the USA?).

    This is just propaganda. No one knows what is going on or when an IGA might happen, if it does.

    And since when does Canada HAVE TO do anything simply because it makes the USG happy?

    The USG has fantasies of using its power to ferret out all possible Trojan horse USC’s around the planet. FATCA is part of this dream. It’s sad that the world can’t stand up in unison and give Uncle Sam the finger but Canada has in the past done this. Why wouldn’t they do it again? Maybe they are and we just don’t know it yet.

    Moody’s has a vested interest in FATCA going ahead. I wouldn’t credit them telling more truth about what is going on than they have to but if things were going well, there would be on point of an article like this one.