Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

Posted on by Posted in Issues regarding US persons abroad 9 Comments

The following is a cross-post from Maple Sandbox, a post by Blaze. WE STRONGLY ENCOURAGE ALL TORONTO-AREA BROCKERS AND SANDBOXERS TO ATTEND THIS DEBATE IF THEY CAN.

An organization called Toronto Centre Debates has announced there will be an all-candidates debate specifically on FATCA, to which all eleven candidates are being invited, for November 18 from 7:00 to 9:00 p.m. Update: The location will be the Don Mills United Church at 126 O’Connor Drive M4K 2K7.  Doors open at 6:45 pm.  In their update, the organizers note that all candidates are invited, and that while the debate will focus on FATCA, there will be time for discussion of other questions and issues.  PLEASE SUPPORT THIS DEBATE BY ATTENDING IF YOU CAN!
http://torontocentredebates.wordpress.com/2013/11/10/torontocentre-debates-all-torcen-candidates-to-fatca-centric-all-candidates-november-1813/

What follows is the cut-and-paste from Blaze’s post which may also be found here
http://maplesandbox.ca/2013/fatca-centric-debate-toronto-centre-november-18/
The organizers say:

FATCA – The most important issue Canadians are not aware of and Candidates won’t talk about!

Their information provides links to the recent MacLean’s article (What Is FATCA: IRS Peeking Into Canadians’ Accounts article by Erica Alini) and the OpEd News article (FATCA Faces Tell the Real Story) by Lynne Swanson. It incorporates much of the latter article into the blog.

In addition:

If all of this isn’t bad enough, the Canadian Bankers are working overtime, by encouraging the Harper Government to enter into an agreement with the U.S. to facilitate transferring this money and information to the IRS. According to the Canadian Bankers association the Government of Stephen Harper is poised to just that – agree to turn the confidential information of Canadian citizens over to the IRS. How can this be done? Doesn’t the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms protect Canadians from this intrusion into their privacy? Constitutional scholar and former dean of the Osgoode Hall Law School Peter Hogg thinks so. Incredibly the U.S. FATCA law REQUIRES the Canadian banks to comply even if to comply means they must violate Canadian law INCLUDING THE CONSTITUTION OF CANADA

I have no idea why this group has taken on FATCA as a major challenge, but I’m delighted they have. Based on their website and their tweets, FATCA is one of many issues they are dealing with in the Toronto Centre byelection. I can personally assure you that Lynne Swanson had no involvement in organizing this debate.

Will the candidates accept the invitation? I predict the major parties won’t. I certainly hope I’m wrong about that. In fact, I would be thrilled to admit I misjudged them if the candidates for the Conservatives, NDP and Liberals do finally agree to a public, open debate on FATCA.

I was born and educated in the US. After completing my post-graduate education, I entered Canada on a temporary work permit, moving to Canada because of the Vietnam war. Shortly after unpacking, I applied for landed immigrant status. A few months later I received in the mail an induction notice from the US Army; I drew a peace symbol on it in felt marker pen and mailed it back. As a result, I was indicted and a warrant was issued for my arrest (both were quashed in 1977 by the Carter amnesty). I became a Canadian citizen in 1975. In 1976, for the US Bicentennial I wrote a political letter to Henry Kissinger, then Secretary of State. In it I mentioned that I had "renounced" (I didn't then know of "relinquish") my US citizenship on becoming a Canadian, explaining in several pages my reasons for leaving the US. I also mentioned the fact that on my mother's side I am a descendant of a soldier who fought in Washington's army during the US rebellion, but now I was declaring my personal independence from the US and rejoining the British Commonwealth. Within six months, I received by mail a CLN recognizing my having expatriated myself from the US in 1975. I filed away my CLN and forgot I had it, until I found it after searching for it upon learning of FATCA and OVDI in August 2011. Since then, I proudly keep a photocopy of it with my passport (which is Canadian; I have never had a US passport in my life, nor will I ever). As a Canadian who long since ceased being an American and who has a CLN, I am not directly affected by FATCA or other US taxation outrages. However, my wife and several of her friends are affected, until their relinquishment CLNs (dating from 30-40 years ago) are issued. Also I have several close friends who were born in Canada of US parents and are considered by the US to be US citizens, though they have never lived in the US, worked there, earned income there, held property there, held US passports, or in any other way excercised USC and are horrified they might be considered US. I am active on this website and in writing my elected Canadian politicians about these issues, on their behalf. I am a retired former employee of the Government of Canada who faithfully and proudly served his adopted and adoptive country for many years. Updated September 2, 2012: earlier this week, my wife finally received her relinquishment CLN, State Department formal recognition that (in their exact words on the CLN) she "ceased to be a US citizen on" the date she became a Canadian more than 35 years ago. Mission Accomplished, to borrow words from my least-favourite contemporary/contemptible American. I will continue to monitor this website from time to time to see if I contribute useful information or opinions, but my wife and I are determined to regain our lives after the past twelve months of angst. Best wishes to all of you on this website in your odyssey toward freedom from the US.

9 thoughts on “All-Candidates Debate on FATCA Toronto Centre November 18”

  1. This is definitely something to support and I look forward to the post-debate reports. “FATCA centric” debate is music to my ears.

  2. Living in Ottawa I won’t be going to the debate, but I would very much appreciate it if anyone who does go, would report back to this thread which candidates participated and which did not. Otherwise I hope I can find that information from the organizers.

    This is not IMO as important for the independent candidates, but for the “main” party candidates. The Con, Green, Lib, NDP and Progressive Canadian parties will be running candidates in all (or at least some, in the case of PC) ridings in 2015. Their Toronto Centre candidates aren’t just running for themselves; they’re running for their national parties as well. (This isn’t the case with the independents in Toronto Centre, at least not most of them.) If any of those five parties or their candidates don’t think FATCA is worth an all-candidates debate and don’t show up, I want to know, and I want to publicize (“name and shame”) those parties. Here, at Sandbox, and wherever else, in 2015, no matter what does or doesn’t happen with an IGA.

    We will remember, and we will punish those who deserve it, in the 2015 election and in any intervening by-elections.

  3. Both U.S. political Parties have their collective heads up their butts. Those who know anything about sales and business want taxation that is not citizenship based but residency based. This law was passed in the 1960’s, amended in the 1970’s and amended again in 2010. There was no shortage of stupidity. They never observed or connected the trade deficits that started in 1976 and escalated in 2010. Our exports dried up when our sales people could no longer live abroad. One of my good friends was a 40 year employee of the telephone industry and a small business man, who had to return home to the U.S when he found 88% of his income going to either Brazilian or U.S. Taxes. When he left the French and Germans moved in and took over the markets he’d serviced. Our politicians have never connected the cause and effect of their actions and won’t listen to anyone who does.

  4. If you’re tracking this thread, please re-read the update to the main post, which gives the location of the debate (announced earlier today on the Toronto Centre Debates website).

    Please, everyone in Toronto turn out to support this debate. A major issue in this campaign, according to the Toronto Centre Debate website, is the refusal or unwillingness of some of the candidates to participate in debates before the voters. As the website so rightly points out, this is a slap in the face to the voters and an affront to democracy. Why have an election at all, if candidates aren’t prepared to debate and discuss issues before meetings of voters?

    If I were a Toronto Centre voter, I would show up and take careful note of which candidates bother to attend. I would then cast my vote for one of those candidates, whichever came closest to my views. No candidate who fails to show up, except for an illness or a family emergency, would get my consideration. If someone I had been supporting failed to show up and I had a lawn sign, I would contact the campaign and give them a few hours to remove their sign, or I would remove it myself from my property.

    And if none of the candidates can bother to show up, I would show up on election day and spoil my ballot. I’ve never heard of spoiled ballots being reported, but they ought to be.

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  6. US politicians certainly have their heads up their butts.

    If you go to the selectusa.commerce.gov website and search under ‘fatca,’ the result is ‘Your search yielded no results.’

    Obviously they don’t want to publicise the fact that if you invest in America, with FATCA you have a substantial risk of having your profits hit by a 30% withholding tax and have to go through all the hassle reclaiming it via the IRS.

    It’s a great selling point.

    It would make more sense to invest in the non-FATCA world.

  7. I will do my best to get there in time to support this. I am an Aboriginal Canadian married to a “US Person”. If this government gives ANY of my personal information to the US in any way, this government is committing TREASON. I want to see the US and Canadian government sue a 5 year old child as this is the age my wife came here never to return to the US. She could care less about the US or even being a US person. After hearing about this, she hates the US and can’t wait to renounce her US citizenship. The mere idea of the US now calling these people criminals is totally absurd! My blood boils over this and I’ll fight this with every option available to me in my country. I’ll try to beat the traffic tomorrow to attend. My heartfelt thank you to Peter Dunn and EVERYONE working so hard to make this known and getting active to do something about. I challenge all Canadians to finally get up and do something before the US takes us all! Thank you all so much!

  8. I attended and was disappointed in the turnout. I can see we need numbers and need any and all the help we can get to make this known. We need people in the thousands to be involved in order to convince this government we will not stand for this loss of Canadian’s assets and futures. I will work very hard for this. Thanks to the others who attended and for those who set it up and support us!

  9. @ Mike
    Well, thanks for being there and I agree our dozens need to become thousands. I just don’t know how we are going to accomplish that. I wrote this over at the Toronto Centre Debates website:
    … FATCA seems to be a problem, perhaps because of its complexity, that is too easily swept under the carpet. When people do get a whiff of it they just shrug and think it doesn’t concern them. Canadians think it only affects Americans in their midst and Americans think it only affects those “other” Americans, the strange ones who live “overseas”. FATCA can’t be reduced to a sound bite and it is so hard these days to attract attention to anything that requires a deeper level of understanding, unless it is a nice juicy scandal. That’s why it’s so important to have venues which give this topic the expanded time that I believe it deserves. I thank the organizers who made this debate happen.

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