Does anyone know of cases where “US persons” at risk from the IRS have run into trouble entering the US? Have any of you had a bad experience?
The last time I entered the US was nearly three years ago and I was seriously hassled at the border crossing (we were driving) because I did not have a US passport. I have not dared try to enter the US since then. I do know a few people who seem to have come and gone without any questions asked.
Thank you.
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I had a family member who took a flight to the US recently, who had let his US passport lapse. I cautioned him, but he opted to travel anyway, entering with his Canadian passport. He passed through Customs and Border Protection without a hassle. Either the officer who dealt with him failed to notice his US birthplace, or did notice but declined to enforce the law.
@Dash1729, yes, I suppose you are correct. Identify oneself as Canadian only and you are LESS LIKELY to run into a neanderthal. Many have done that and received the same treatment. In this Northernshrike’s case, however, an improper self-identification is to blame.
@Atticus, if you have proof that you made your citizenship declaration with the intent to relinquish, then your case to have relinquish should be open and shut, and you used the passport under coercion. Your case remains not just strong but open and shut, and the border guard put you in an awkward situation in violation of your right to expatriate. If you can get the letter from the judge Hsu without a too much problem I would do it to present to the Consulate when indicating your relinquishment. This constitutes proof of your intention at the time of becoming a Canadian citizen. My proof was a iPhone video of myself speaking to the citizenship judge that I was relinquishing my US citizenship. I never had to use it, because I received the CLN without challenge of my claim to have relinquished.
@Petros — You wrote “@atticus, if you have received a CDN passport you should have relinquished already. The act of relinquishment is taking CDN citizenship or making a pledge to foreign sovereign with the intention of relinquishing your US Citizenship, not the act of going into a consulate and relinquishing. You have to understand that relinquishing does not require the aid of the consulate at all and that is why they cannot charge you $450 for that act.”
As far as the US courts are concerned, the State Department has exclusive jurisdiction in determining whether expatriating acts are legally valid, not the individual; so unless you’re about to get an audience with the supreme court, it is highly unlikely the US goverment will recognize and expatriating act affirmatively until a DS-4079 is submitted considering the US Court of Appeals has already rule as such.
See below:
Werner T. HEUER, Plaintiff-Appellant,
v.
UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE, Defendant-Appellee.
https://bulk.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F3/20/20.F3d.424.93-4574.html
Moreover, the presence of administrative proceedings is made evident by virtue of the fact that the Department of State must ultimately and necessarily determine when to approve and issue a CLN. Until a CLN is approved and issued, any act of expatriation, whether or not intentional, is simply an act without significance to nationality or status.We emphasize that until such an approval and issuance by the Department of State occurs, the United States national is recognized as such, regardless of what act of expatriation is involved, even if he wishes to disavow American nationality.
@BenG, thank you for that helpful excerpt and the link. The State Department decides on the basis of a preponderance of evidence whether to issue a CLN, to be sure. And before that the United States considers a person born in the US to be citizen, despite their declarations at the border. This is why I avoid going to the United States, especially during the uncomfortable year between my becoming a Canadian citizen and my receiving the CLN. However, according to immigration law, I was no longer a US citizen from the day that I became a CDN citizen (Feb 28, 2011) and it is marked such on my CLN. However, as you say, the United States will consider no one who has relinquished as no longer US until they receive the CLN. One is scarecrow. Brains but no diploma.
Yet it is not, according to rights of the person, up to the State Department or any other official to determine if a person is a citizen of a country, but it is indeed up to the individual whether to change citizenships. This is a universal human right recognized by the United Nations.
My concern for those who are planning to commit a relinquishing act in the future or who have done so, is that they understand that their act is committed without the aid of the State Department and that once they have committed the act, they are no longer US citizen. This is true even if it takes them 60 years to go into a Consulate, as the State Department recognizes such acts and backdates CLNs to the date of the relinquishing act. They should not say, “I am going to the consulate to relinquish.” But, “I am going into the consulate to inform them of my relinquishing act and that I am no longer a US citizen.” It is important in my view to have the correct perspective.
Good point, Petros. I plan to relinquish upon taking the oath to Canada and Queen and will live my life as a non-citizen from that point. The consulate appointment is to merely get the CLN paperwork rolling b/c the US is suddenly big on “proof” although I am think that perhaps I will do what Atticus did and ask the judge at the ceremony to witness my “relinquishment” and have my husband record it (my daughter’s too).
I am not at all sure why a consulate appointment is even necessary. We should be able to simply submit our proof and handle the whole thing via post or email.
@petros – I agree, but if for any reason the state department decides the relinquishing act was invalid 60 years later, the person is up the creek insofar as their status is concerned.
@all
I have had only one incident with Buffalo US border where I said I was dual. It was in 2009 or 2010. I never had a US passport, just Canadian. The US border agent said there is no dual…I am American!! and to get a US passport. I didn’t. I have crossed about 3 times since , last time in 2011 . There was no problems.. I just hand over my Cdn passport and say nothiing,, just answer the questions asked or my cdn boyfriend would answer.
I came to Canada in 1969, became a Canadian citizen in 1993 and went to the US counsel last July for my CLN. They tried to say I was renouncing but I politely said no, I relinquished in 1993..
I have a question.
How does one follow up on the CLN? I didn’t get any paperwork or number for my forms I signed.
YogaGirl,
There are two parties to the citizenship contract (an unusual contract that we are, in most cases, entered into involuntarily at birth): The person and the government involved. The power difference between the two parties is obviously enormous. That is why, no matter what we as individuals believe about having relinquished our citizenship, the U.S. government has the power to do anything to us that it deems legal under its laws, if it can enforce its laws on us. So we have a stark choice: Either follow its laws or stay out of its enforcement jurisdiction.
BenG,
You’re quite right.
@northernstar,
Like you, I didn’t get any receipt or paperwork when I applied for my CLN last year. When I wanted to ask them six months later why I had not yet received my CLN, I just sent an email to the consulate, and they replied “It’s still in Washington.” So I assume they have them indexed by name and (maybe) email address or postal address. As I recall, it took about 7 months for the CLN to arrive after my visit to the Toronto consulate.
@Northernstar, you encountered a neanderthal. He is unaware apparently that dual citizenship does in fact exist; I suppose that means that he’s never actually read the US passport itself, the document that he insists that Canadians born in the US must carry. Or perhaps illiteracy is requirement for applying for US government positions.
Otherwise, how could he claim you as an American despite your carrying a CDN passport. This is an example of how stupid the border guards are. They were obviously lower on the evolutionary scale and should never be trusted when it comes to advice about whether one is a citizen and of which country one is a citizen.
I thought about doing a post on this topic a while ago, but was much more paranoid back then and thought we’d end up on a watch list for attempts to monitor US border crossings. It’s not like taking pictures of US naval bases, I now realize 🙂
With all the trouble and pain I’ve gone through going into OVDI, I wasn’t about to get hassled at the US border and renewed my US passport after using only a Canadian for about 15 years. Prior to that, I recall that I’d received only one reminder that I should be using a US.
I believe the border guards friendliness may be contingent on how much the border state’s tax revenue depends on Canadians shoppers.
Many of us can remember this story, although her problem was proving she in fact WAS a US citizen in order to reenter the US:
http://now.msn.com/woman-stuck-in-mexico-after-renouncing-us-citizenship
@AnonAnon
Thank you for your answer…It is only 2 months…I will send an email in December to check on it if I don’t have it by then.
AnonAnon, yes, I understand the whole “it’s a contract despite the fact that as a infant, you weren’t actually able to enter in to one” bs that govts in general – but the US in particular – are so fond of. But I am trying to be realistic about how long it might take to get this “divorce” on paper because I haven’t yet been granted citizenship here and the queue to the consulate gets longer and longer. In order for a relinquishment to stick, I have to live as though I am just a Canadian from the oath forward regardless of whether or not the US has climbed down from its high horse long enough to rubber stamp the reality according to their own rules.
Only my husband has been hassled at the border – back when we were dating and the US border folk thought he was a risk for turning illegal alien.
My mother in law and her now ex-husband had no end of harassing encounters coming and going after they wed. She was Canadian so the US terrorized her every crossing and he was an American and the Canadians menaced him. They crossed in BC somewhere b/c she lived in the Okanagan and he in Washington and they went back and forth between their homes. It was a nightmare and contributed a bit to their divorce.
Border guards and encounters with them – for now anyway – probably depend more on the individual personality and maybe a bit on the mindset of whoever is in charge. That could change in the future I suppose but the US has had laws on their books for a long time about Americans using US passports and they still only sort of enforce it and no one that I have heard of has ever been penalized for not following it.
FWIW, I soon as I renounce I intend to put in a NEXUS application. Since this is a joint US-Canada operation, the US must also approve applicants (I believe an interview with US border officials is part of it). The hope is that being in NEXUS will provide for hassle-free entry into the US and “overzealous” US border guards will show some restraint.
See: http://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/prog/nexus/menu-eng.html
Since becoming a Canadian citizen last December (2012), I’ve crossed many times without incident with my brand new Canadian passport. Previous to that I crossed on my US passport. I still have it and it is still valid but I refuse to use it for fear of jeapordizing my relinquishment claim. I don’t even take it with me for “back-up”.
Some years previously I was entering the US (on my US passport, of course) and the border guard starting asking questions about how long I intended to stay, whether I intended to work, and so on! I think he must have gotten mixed up because as a US citizen I could enter whenever I wanted, stay as long as I saw fit, work if desired, get married, buy real estate or run for public office and US Customs would have nothing to say about it! I just smiled, answered politely that it was a short visit and was soon on my way.
I do have personal knowledge of a US Customs issue that the brother and sister-in-law of my Spanish-Canadian friend experienced while returning from a short Mexican holiday. The husband was travelling on his Canadian passport but his wife on her Spanish passport because she was a Canadian Permenent Resident at the time. He was good to go but there was no way they were going to allow her in. “We think you are a Mexican trying to enter illegally”. This in spite of her valid Spanish passport, same last name, Canadian drivers licenses, Canadian address and so on. Of course, they both spoke fluent Spanish but it was Castillian Spanish, not Mexican–a distinction totally lost on the border morons.
Bottom line; a border guard can unilateraly make your life miserable at any time for any reason at his or her whim. As soon as you drive up to the border booth you give up all your civil rights and the expectation of common human decency and can only hope they don’t decide to target you that particular day.
Thank you all for your various comments. I think it fair to draw the conclusion that no one, to our knowledge, has been held at the border when entering the US for tax related issues. “Americans” without US passport may be hassled, but are allowed through. No one has been forced to sign away rights, This is good, though of course it could change at any time.
This observation is not intended to close of discussion. More stories and shared experiences most welcome!
@various above
Just to reinforce a point I’ve made in other threads and posts —
once you have applied for a CLN, renunciation OR relinquishment, the State Department creates a computer file with at least some of the particulars of your application, presumably at minimum name, date and place of birth, and when you had your interview. They do this during your interview, at least they did in my wife’s case. Your file indicates that you’ve sworn the appropriate oath and your CLN is pending review; once the CLN is approved, that fact presumably is then added. The US border people have access to that database on their computers. They should know that you’ve applied for a CLN.
I know this because the vice-consul conducting her CLN interview told this to my wife, who reported the conversation to me as soon as she met me outside the building.
One advantage of this should be that once you’ve applied for a CLN, there should be no question of your having a US passport to enter the US. If you had a US passport, you were required to surrender it during the interview. (If you didn’t surrender it, and it’s still valid, they’ll find out, because one of the things I’m certain they do check for all CLN cases is whether there’s an outstanding and valid US passport in your name and still in circulation; you won’t ever get a CLN if that’s true — unless they really screw up.) Once you’ve sworn the appropriate oath and have surrendered any US passport you might have had, there is no way the State Department would issue you a passport even if you applied for one, unless you informed them probably in writing that you were withdrawing your CLN application.
Bottom line — once you’ve even applied for a CLN, there should be no question of your being able to cross the border on your Canadian passport, unless the border guard is exceeding his/her authority or has some other and legitimate reason for doing so.
I also am 99.99% certain that once you’ve been issued a CLN, the border guards will have that fact on their computers also. Arguably you shouldn’t even need a copy of your CLN with you when you cross, but I always do now anyway. Just in case.
Are US border guards ‘anti-Canadian’?
Prepare to get your hackles up.
http://metronews.ca/news/canada/808686/are-u-s-border-guards-anti-canadian/
bubblebustin,
I wonder their opinion of the Canadian snowbirds that keep Florida and Arizona economies alive?
And, I wonder if that’s the general opinion of Canadians, what is their opinion Canadians who have renounced US citizenship?
And, how is that US border deal coming along? http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2013/08/01/surprise_stephen_harpers_us_border_deal_does_imperil_canadian_sovereignty_walkom.html
On top of it all, Diane Francis and her nonsense http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/09/28/jonathan-kay-diane-francis-plan-to-merge-canada-and-the-united-states-has-many-many-problems/
There are certainly border and border guard issues. May there ALWAYS be a border!
@Calgary411
Or merchants and state tax revenues on the US’s border states?
Little do they realize the effect of Canadian cross-border shopping and snowbird revenue.
“The U.S. treasures its judicial system and is reluctant to let its citizens be subject to the whims of foreigners.” — such as “foreign” tax collectors of the countries in which they reside. It prefers to tax its own citizens wherever they are. 🙂
Seriously, there’s a pattern here: The U.S. government treats its citizens outside the country as extensions of the country. They represent the empire and are subject to its laws and control. In addition to citizenship-based taxation, the U.S. claims the right to exercise citizenship-based law in general. The idea of U.S. citizens who might wish to live permanently outside the U.S., subject to the laws of other countries, and even (horrors!) give up their citizenship apparently seems, to them, to be bordering on treason.
Just participated with
http://hodgen.com/webinar-if-you-are-thinking-of-expatriation-in-2013/
I can HIGHLY recommend this Seminar. Phil knows the answers to all these questions.
Mona Lisa e-mailed me and asked me to post this about her recent entry into the US.
”I flew into Philadelphia International Airport for the first time post-renunciation yesterday afternoon. It was very quiet as it was a Monday and early February is a not busy there. The man at the checkpoint fingerprinted me on both hands and took a photo. His first question was where was I born; when telling him a US city, he looked at my British passport and asked why I wasn’t using a US passport; upon telling him that I’d renounced, he paused and looked taken aback and then asked if I had any documents to prove it; upon showing him my photocopied CLN, he explained that they’d have to briefly question me in another room while they verified everything.
I was quite nervous, but he was polite at least; I had to take my passport to this other room and sit for about a half hour after which I was called up to the desk and the woman asked me quite bluntly why I’d renounced. She seemed incredulous.
Even when I renounced I wasn’t asked this question directly!! I just said that I was trying to reduce the complexities in my life and that I’d been married to a British man and living in the UK for over 25 years. She seemed to accept this and said something along the lines of ‘well, I suppose we also make you pay taxes over there…’. I honestly told her that it wasn’t the tax so much as the huge ongoing accounting fees. She just then let me go but reminded me that I can never live nor work in the US again.
In a way I’m glad this happened to me because I am no longer so frightened of the process but could imagine that had I come over in high summer that I might have been forced to wait several hours if they’d been questioning lots more people. It’s also possible that they might question fewer people if they were processing loads of arrivals though. They also both asked me what I do for a living.”
They do seem to be cracking down on the traveling via US passport thing.”
Really outrageous, the US officials at the airport harassing you about your renouncing. I think your inner strength was a big help in your handling the situation well. Thanks for letting us know about this.