Does anyone know of cases where “US persons” at risk from the IRS have run into trouble entering the US? Have any of you had a bad experience?
The last time I entered the US was nearly three years ago and I was seriously hassled at the border crossing (we were driving) because I did not have a US passport. I have not dared try to enter the US since then. I do know a few people who seem to have come and gone without any questions asked.
Thank you.
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@Northernshrike, I’d be very interested in reading about what you experienced exactly at the border that last time. We know that US border guards have often told (not systematically though) Canadians who have a US birthplace that they must enter the US with a US passport. This they have done without knowledge or regard for the law, in violation of the expatriation rights which are part of the universal declaration of human rights and in US law itself.
As yet, however, I’ve not heard any stories of out and out detention of US citizens. I heard one third-hand anecdote from a person I know from Isaac Brock, who missed a flight from Canada to the US because the border guard insisted on seeing six years of tax returns before allowing him to pass. That is the worst scenario I’ve heard. Of course, if a US person was arrested and sent to Guantanamo, would anyone bother telling me?
@Petros
When crossing the border by car, we were asked for our citizenship. I identified myself as dual (as advised by DFAIT) and produced my Canadian passport. (I have not had a US passport since becoming a Canadian citizen more than 30 years ago.) The guard became quite angry and said I should have a US passport. She then tore the car apart.
As long as I am in Canada I can count on the Canadian government to protect me — or at least I hope I can. Once in the US, who knows? I fear being taken aside, required to complete forms for applying for a US passport, being quizzed on tax filings, being required to sign away my rights, etc. I wonder whether anyone has had that kind of experience.
@northshrike, I haven’t had any trouble crossing but, after taking Canadian citizenship and attempting to cross on my Canadian passport I was told I HAD to cross on U.S. passport. I did have one with me so produced it though I’d have rather not as I intended to relinquish. Now i will have to state truthfully that I used U.S. passport after being told that I was required to use it.
Other than that nothing bad. We crossed at Detroit last time which we almost never do. They are a little more rigid there than where we usually cross. Not just thorough which I expect them to be but, rather rude beyond what is necessary really. Still we crossed without issues in the end. I don’t really anticipate any big issues after relinquishing. Maybe occasionally an over zealous border guard but, you know what? That can happen even if you haven’t relinquished or renounced so I really wouldn’t worry too much about it.
I started a thread on this topic more than a year ago over at the Sandbox site, here
http://maplesandbox.ca/2012/crossing-the-us-border-on-a-canadian-passport-showing-a-us-birthplace/
In the interests of simplicity and keeping all the information in one place, may I suggest posting this story over at Sandbox and continuing the thread there?
Northernshrike, when you post over there please (if you’re comfortable doing this) mention how long ago this was, and which border crossing. Yours is the first such story we’ve encountered to date; all other reports have been “no problem” reports. I’ve made a point of posting the experiences of my wife and me (both air and land crossings) every time for the past year; they’ve been uneventful (but we both have CLNs, however our Canadian passports both show US birthplaces). Not only have we not had problems since my wife got her CLN (relinquishment) a year ago, she never had any difficulty in the more than 40 years she’s been crossing the border (20 with me, 20 before we met). I’ve never had any problems in 35 years of crossing the border (I wasn’t able to before the Carter amnesty in 1977), but then I’ve had a CLN though never with me until the past two years, however we do know (from what the vice-consul told my wife during her CLN interview) that the border computers have access to the State Department database that lists all CLN cases pending as well as approved. (Anyone who’s sworn either a renunciation or a relinquishment can’t possibly have a US passport and there’s no point in the border people even asking, and so far they haven’t, nor has there been any mention of our CLNs which we carry but haven’t shown and won’t unless we get into a discussion with them.)
That being said, I don’t personally know of anyone who has crossing while declaring themselves to be a dual citizen. I know people who don’t have CLNs, do have US birthplaces on their Canadian passports, don’t claim dual citizenship if asked, and have never been hassled. I also know a couple of people who have been hassled, shrugged it off, got through, continued to cross with no problems. So far these incidents seem to be one-offs by specific border guards who are being unprofessional and are having a bad day. That can always change, of course. But that’s my current interpretation.
Just saw Atticus’ comment after posting mine. I concur with her assessment about individual border guards. Some can be brusque, even rude. On our last border crossing, by car, the border station was almost empty, no one in a queue behind us, two of the guards were leaning against our guard’s booth shooting the breeze as we pulled up. I thought “oh oh, three bored border guards, boy are we in for a ride” but nothing of the sort. The two idling guards went about their business elsewhere, the guy in the booth (older, nearing retirement probably) certainly checked out our passports thoroughly on his computer, but kept a running chatter with us, very friendly and polite, waved us through with a “have a nice day.”
Some days you get a good one, some days you get a right bastard. Just keep your cool and don’t sign anything without getting legal advice, but I haven’t heard of anyone being asked to sign anything.
Final comment re what happens in Canada. When you go through pre-clearance in Toronto or anywhere else, you ARE on Canadian soil. If the US border people have reason to believe you’re a threat of some sort, they can detain you only as long as it takes a city cop or Mountie to take you away for questioning by them. DFAIT says clearly on their website that US pre-clearance stations at Canadian airports are Canadian soil, Canadian jurisdiction and under Canadian law. I think the link to that page is on the Sandbox thread; I probably put it there. If not. go to the DFAIT advice page for people entering the US and scroll quite a way down, it should still be there (unless it’s changed in the past few months, but I doubt that). It said that if at any time during the interview by the US you feel uncomfortable and decide you don’t want to board the plane after all, you have the right to turn around and leave the clearance hall. Just do it quietly and politely.
Border stations on US soil are, of course, US jurisdiction and another story. I asked someone at CBSA (our guys) by phone what happens if you try to cross by car into the US and change your mind during the interview. He said he didn’t know but laughed and said he wouldn’t recommend it; he did also say that if someone trying to enter Canada by car had a change of mind, our folks would invite him/her to turn the car around and drive back, wishing them a nice day. Slight difference in attitude, eh? (The CBSA guy implied as much.)
When I was serving in the US military, the last month I spent on vacation in Europe. When I returned to the US, I noticed that my US passport had expired. So, I showed the immigration officer my US military id card and my valid Swiss passport. He asked me how long I was going to stay in the US and I probably said: “Oh, I don’t know, I never thought about that”. I think that I then explained to him that the US passport had expired and showed it to him. He then said that he wanted to talk to me in private later. So, after about 15 minutes or so, he came to and he told me that it is illegal to be a Swiss citizen and that I needed to destroy the Swiss passport and renounce Swiss citizenship. I said something like: “Ok, thanks for the advice”, and then went on my way.
Several years later when I went to Switzerland using the US passport, the swiss immigration officers asked me how long I was going to stay and then expressed, if I remember correctly, that I needed to show them the Swiss passport instead of the US passport.
I really haven’t had any negative crossing experience. I live in the SW corner of Canada adjacent to three land crossings and cross frequently. My experiences can be divided up into three phases:
-Pre-CLN: always had a Canadian passport, was frequently questioned about my birthplace, and was never hassled about a US passport.
-Mid-CLN: border guard knew it was in process, commented he had to let me in because he saw me as a US citizen, noted that he did not have to let in my wife (Canadian) if she had a criminal record. There were no problems and the guard was humerous about it all.
-Post-CLN: I’ve never produced the CLN document, I still have to identify the state I was born in since the Can. passport only shows the city, and its a wierd name. I’m not sure if they’re curious or if its just another interogation method.
They’re always polite, sometimes a little stiff and cranky, but never rude. It is the Pacific coast and both sides of the border are pretty laid back. I’ve had it worse coming back.
I used to Always get the question “what was the purpose of your trip”, when there was a permanent visa for living in my country of Residence. “I live there”, followed by “oh”, as they leaf through the stamps and visa pages. Now that I have citizenship, I am waiting for the day when they leaf through the US passport and do not see a permanent visa. I can’t remember where I read that it should be a confusing experience if 2 passports are shown, as might need be, when they don’t see any explanation with the visa which shows that you live there.
Yes, I have, but only because that was back then when I was uninformed and could be intimidated. I tell my story often to warn others not to be as stupid as I was. My mistake in taking heed of what I was told by a US border guard and getting the dreaded US passport has cost me and my husband over $40,000, plus the renunciation fee for me (my husband did have to renounce). Mine could have easily instead been claiming my 1975 relinquishment by becoming a Canadian citizen in 1975.
As well, I have, from time to time, sleepless nights visualizing my adult son (with a developmental disability) being questioned should I ever need (or want) to cross the border with him for whatever reason to visit family in the US. He could likely cross with anyone other than his mother (me, with my Canadian passport showing I was born in the US) with his Canadian passport that shows he was born in Canada.
Yes, Calgary. I have wondered what will occur when I cross with son who has Canadian passport and me with Canadian but, showing U.S. birthplace. My son is not renouncing as he does not consider himself American. Thing is though that he struggles at times to deal with things and I don’t think the whole renouncing getting compliant situation would work out well for him. So, he won’t be able to cross with me without perhaps being told he is American even though I did NOT register him as such and he certainly doesn’t consider himself anything but, Canadian.
Aren’t you all tired of who stupidly intricate this all can get? The absurdity of having to even think about a Canadian child crossing with a Canadian mother who happened to have been born in the U.S. My god, I think even crossing in from Cuba would be less silly.
ug! “HOW” not “who”
@atticus, if you have received a CDN passport you should have relinquished already. The act of relinquishment is taking CDN citizenship or making a pledge to foreign sovereign with the intention of relinquishing your US Citizenship, not the act of going into a consulate and relinquishing. You have to understand that relinquishing does not require the aid of the consulate at all and that is why they cannot charge you $450 for that act.
Well I hope that what you had to go to the states for was worth $450. Because if the consulate doesn’t accept your explanation as to why you used your passport, under duress, as it were, they may require $450 to renounce. I think in your case that would be considerably cheaper than hiring a lawyer to fight the State Department (in the case of others, it is well worth the lawyer, in my view).
My travelling experience is not to the USA (where I haven’t been to for 22 years.)
But as I also have Israeli citizenship + a German/Euro passport:
When I leave and return to Israel where I have resided for 51 years:Israel wants my Israeli passport at the borders.
When I enter European countries I can use both but I prefer the German/Euro passport.
Swiss friends with dual citizenship(Swiss +Israeli)must enter Israel with their Israeli passport and Switzerland with their Swiss passport.
I’ve never returned home to Israel without my Israeli passport or,as happened this past year when all my passports where stolen from my purse in the Paris metro:I had to go to the Israeli embassy to get a temporary travel document to enable me to leave Europe,board my flight and return to Israel.I don’t know what would have happened without the official travel document.
@Swisspinoy, why would it have been illegal to be a Swiss citizen? Was it because you were in the military? Not sure that matters. The commander in chief of the US is a Kenyan and an Indonesian. He has claimed to be a world citizen. Why would it matter for the rank and file if it doesn’t apply to the commander in chief?
@Northernshrike, thanks for the clarification about what happened to you. The border guard, of course, was completely wrong about you. If you relinquished your citizenship all those years ago, then you are a CDN and it was only right that you should cross with a CDN passport. She should have said to make the transition smoother you should go and obtain a CLN. But the border guards are neanderthals who probably don’t know how to read and thus are ignorant of the laws that they are supposed to enforce. It really disgusts me.
This is one more area where the United States is far from exceptional. Illiteracy.
@petros, I had to go down in December due to an issue with my fathers health so did go. I considered myself relinquished and had already made a public statement to the citizenship judge and asked if he would sign a statement for me should I need it. He said yes, also asked Ted Hsu the same, he also said “yes” so hopefully as others have been allowed to relinquish when they have been told the HAD to use U.S. passport, I will be allowed to relinquish as I made clear was my intention. If not, then okay I will renounce. If it is 450 then that’s how much it is. It’s much better as you say than paying a lawyer.
As far as going physically there before now. Wasn’t exactly possible. However, I did send them a letter stating I took Canadian citizenship with intent to relinquish.
@Petros I’m going to have to side with the CBP on this one–maybe not when it came to her attitude but certainly when it came to the officer’s interpretation of the facts–which I think the officer got correct.
northernshrike identified themselves as a dual citizen–which, on US soil, is perfectly reasonably interpreted to mean primarily a US citizen–to a CBP citizen. It was a perfectly reasonable response for the CBP to expect to see proof of US citizenship from someone claiming to be a US citizen.
Now it does sound like the CBP officer’s attitude stunk to high heaven. I won’t argue that. But the officer’s basic interpretation of the facts was correct. If you’ve relinquished US citizenship, identify yourself SOLELY as Canadian. If asked, say you relinquished citizenship when you became a Canadian.
I was hassled coming into the US as a US citizen with a US passport.
I’ve been living overseas for decades. Arrived at JFK en route to Seattle, did not expect any problems (hey I’m a citizen, right?), was hassled and intimidated by a border official because I didn’t know the exact address of where I would be staying.
I was naive and unprepared for this and truly frightened that I wouldn’t be allowed into the country, not knowing that this was totally out of line for them to be asking me. Later was told by US border officials at Vancouver that the NY staff had no right to ask that, as a citizen I could go wherever I pleased
So personally I’m not too worried about entering the country after getting a CLN, they couldn’t treat me much worse than they did already.
I have traveled numerous time by car over the border either at Detroit or the Peace Bridge to Buffalo and have never had any border guard comment on the US birthplace on my Canadian passport. The latest time I crossed was in July of this year and the guard was very friendly. I guess I have been lucky. I became Canadian in 2002 and never formally relinquished as I do not want the hassle of a trip to Toronto and possible complications. As far as I am concerned I gave up my US citizenship when I became Canadian. However I am still concerned about what will happen with FACTA since I don,t have a CLN.
I cross from Canada to the US often, about 4-6 times a year, and always travel on my Canadian passport mainly because it’s the only passport I’ve ever had. I have crossed at many New Brunswick/Maine border crossings as well as Buffalo, Niagara Falls, Detroit, Port Huron and many airports.
Since 2011, I have been asked once about my place of birth in New York and that was at Houlton, ME. I simply replied that I have lived most of my life in Canada. That was it. Absolutely no problems otherwise.
@Somerfugl “I became Canadian in 2002 and never formally relinquished” At least as I understand it (primarily from postings on this site), one doesn’t really formally relinquish. Rather one takes an action–for example, in your case becoming Canadian–with the intention of relinquishing US citizenship. That is the point at which US citizenship is lost. A subsequent trip to the consulate in Toronto or elsewhere might be needed to get a CLN as PROOF of relinquishing–but one actually relinquishes as soon as one performs an action with the intention of relinquishing citizenship. The formal procedure simply documents a relinquishment one has already undertaken.
OTOH it is good to identify oneself solely as Canadian from that point forward. Calling oneself ‘dual’ to US officials will not produce good results as the OP found out.
@shunrata In this case the CBP was definitely wrong–no need for a US address if one is a US citizen.
Even if you have a US birthplace, there is no way the US would be able to see it in a Swiss passport since a Swiss passport doesn’t show this piece of information (it is irrelevant as far as Swiss Nationality Law is concerned).
Swiss passports show an individual’s Heimatort / Lieu d’origine (Place of Origin, which is always within Switzerland), which is the community in which his citizenship is registered in and this is the community in which he/she naturalized, his/her father’s community (mother’s if father doesn’t have one), or the community of his spouse in case citizenship is acquired through marriage.
@Petros, I suspect that the guy was an ultra-nationalist and thus strongly opposed to dual citizenships. Internally, I was laughing at him since it was written inside of the US passport that dual citizenship was allowed. There are actually many Americans who strongly oppose dual citizenship and I’ve finally allowed them to win their battle. It is actually fun commenting: “Indeed, the US passport is a ‘good riddance'”!
I have been hassled crossing into the US from Canada since childhood, predating the requirement for Canadians to cross using passports. It was so bad, and so frequent, that I stopped crossing from about 98 to 2008. In 2008 my whole family applied for Canadian passports, as the deadline to cross with them was looming. I crossed a few times (Ontario border town), without hassle, until WHAM!, one border agent and I had knockdown, drag out argument that I needed to enter the US only on a US passport, in 2010 or 2011. And that brought me here.
I’ve crossed once, since (spring 2011), without incident. I’m now interested to see what will happen now that I have a CLN, but I have zero desire to cross.