Update 3:
Those in or near London, England might be interested that a similar event to take place there on Sunday, July 28, 2013, is in the works. I will post the details as the become available.
UDPATE 2:
Saturday, June 15
Don Mills United Church – 126 O’Connor Dr., Toronto, Ontario M4K 2K7
Click here for directions (at the corner of Pape and O’Connor, see google maps). There is some street parking.
Doors will open at 9:45 a.m.
UPDATE 1:
- There is to be no taping/recording/videoing of ANY part of the day.
- The day will be extended to encourage more people to attend.
- Attendance is free.
The morning session will focus primarily on the emotional issues and the afternoon session on practical issues.
Session I: The Financial and Emotional Costs of U.S. Citizenship Abroad
- When: Saturday June 15, 2013 – 10:00 a.m. – 12:00 noon
- Where: Downtown Toronto – Near U of T – Final location posted on June 13
- Who: a Senior Licensed Psychologist
Description: Since 2011, the Obama administration has subjected millions of people Living outside the United States to a vicious attack. This includes Reaching into Canada. The IRS has literally threatened millions of innocent persons living outside the United States with fines exceeding their personal wealth–up to 380% of their financial assets. For many, this experience has taken a toll on their mental and physical health, and that has been even greater than the financial damage. A psychologist will address the emotional issues associated with the threats and demands that IRS is making. He will describe his own emotional experience and encourage others to share their own emotional reactions to these circumstances. Strategies will be discussed on how to cope with the stress caused by the IRS and the difficulties of living as a U.S. person abroad.
Session II: US Citizenship Abroad and Compliance Issues – Where we have come from. Where we are. Where we may be going
- When: 1:00 p.m. – 3:00 p.m.
- Who: An experienced Toronto lawyer
- What: Focus on more practical issues
Description: Beginning in the summer of 2011 the IRS aided by the media and cross-border professionals began a relentless attack on U.S. citizens in Canada. The spectre of FATCA has worsened the situation. The purpose of this session will be to review:
- Summer of 2011 – where we have come from
- 2011 to now – where we are now
- 2014 and onwards – where we may be going
What might this mean for U.S. citizenship in Canada? What are some possible responses? How can/should you respond to a difficult situation?
Please note that although this event will take place on June 15, it is NOT a session on how to file a U.S. tax return. The discussion will however include relevant U.S. tax issues and reporting/information returns.
You may feel you need help because:
- You are or have been threatened by the imposition of life-altering fines for failing to file information returns you had no reason to know existed;
- You feel victimized by the Canadian and other non-U.S. media, who have constantly referred to you as a “tax cheat” and advised you to “come clean”;
- You feel “taken advantage of” by the so-called “cross-border professionals”.
You just want to be compliant with the law, but you receive conflicting advice, and nobody seems to be able to tell you how to do it, yet they are asking for “huge” fees; - You feel completely misunderstood by the non-U.S. citizens in your life. They can’t understand the feelings of fear, betrayal and injustice that you feel. In some cases, this experience has put your marriage at risk;
- Your health has been dramatically affected by all of this. You can’t sleep. You worry. You have gained or lost weight. You are no longer the happy person you were. You feel that your life has been stolen from you.
First published May 27, 2013
Another remembrance of the Toronto meeting coming to mind:
The Speaker strongly advised that if you suspect that you likely owe taxes, are considering possibility of becoming “compliant”, but first want to find out how much would be owed and seek advice from a tax professional who is not an attorney, you must make that discussion “hypothetical” as there is no attorney-client privilege.
This is discussed in IBS forum in: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/01/23/attorney-cpa-ea-or-registered-tax-preparer-your-choice-of-dance-partner-tax-compliance/
Nobledreamer, thanks for the break down into such concise information reproduced here. I had brought my spouse to be able to allow him to perhaps gather up the scope of this for discussion at home. I wasn’t explaining it as fully as I wanted to and who could? It’s so complicated. The upshot of this was for me that there isn’t one clear path set forth by FATCA, IRS or anyone else. Lawyers, accountants and other professionals abroad often do not know or do not have the correct information to be able to give to their clients and in cases where the do they cannot by law give such information. FBAR fines “may” not be accessed but, that there was a lot of distrust among us about that issue. I include myself in that based on what they have done so far with this law.
It seems renouncing is the most practical path for many but, even that has pitfalls if you are not very careful. Even then if you need to travel back to the U.S. for family you may need to pay attention to the Orin/Schumers. Nevertheless, taking unemotional, rational steps forward is your best way to deal with this situation. This is something I will have to work on. I am deeply sad to be giving up my birthright, but, angry as hell that I’ve been put in this situation but, like other situations in life you must be practical and adult and just get it done. That is not to say you should completely compartmentalize as to do so is not possible if you are mentally healthy. Talking to those of you already through this process is invaluable as your journey, and sense of freedom is very telling!
The bottom line though was that much of the sabre rattling and fear mongering may be to shove people into programs not meant for them and that they should not consider.
There is much value you being able to meet up with those going through this because it is abuse. Just like with any abuse, group therapy sessions are always more helpful than trying to navigate your way alone.
While my spouse is still confused *who isn’t!* there’s more of an urgency now about taking action to protect ourselves rather than waiting to “see” or “sit tight” as we were once told by a talking out of his hat official.
The Issac Brockers are pioneers it seems with far more valuable information than any of the professionals I’ve consulted with so far about any of this.
Sounds like some great information and support. Thanks everyone for attending and sharing.
“There was clear information about what to do in one’s specific situation …” Was anything mentioned about tax/8854 requirements (or not) for pre-1994 relinquishments?
@Hijacked2012, I don’t remember specific advice on this (@Nobledreamer?), but suspect that someone in this forum knows the answer if you ask.
[Sorry, yet another recollection from the meeting: The Speaker emphasized at the beginning that we are in a special situation in which, no matter what we do, there will be a bad consequence. Do nothing: bad; do something/anything: bad. There are just different degrees of badness.]
@Hijacked @ IRSCompliantForever
I don’t remember anything specific about pre-1994 issues with spouse & 8854 but do remember IRS generally accepts law of area of filer. So in ONT community law it’s 50%. I was asked to hold off on the notes until the speaker reviewed them I hope to type them up early this evening and they will likely be on by tomorrow.
I just filed 8854 and there is some good info on Phil’ s site. I can send later.
@Noble Dreamer and IRSCompliantForever,
All of the consulates in Canada were told they could and should switch to one visit as of November 2012, if they hadn’t already.
Vancouver, however, is still requiring two.
Halifax, Ottawa, Toronto, Calgary do it in one visit
Montréal was doing it in 1 visit. Someone reported a few months ago that Montréal told them they had switched back to 2 visits, which is weird — doubly weird as they had a staff shortage at the same time. That’s the last news I’ve heard of Montréal, so I’ll contact them this week and provide an update.
@Petros, @all,
I just want to thank Petros and the two speakers for yesterday’s meeting. It was really, really
helpful. It was sure interesting to hear the various participant’s stories, as we have all (and
in some cases still are) grappling with the emotions this situation has caused, even if our
individual details are different. As the part 2 speaker said, he thought of about 16 different
variations of cases of US persons abroad that have been affected. I thought he was right when he said that there really is NO solution that will make you feel completely happy or good about
the result, but you need to consider your situation and decide what is essentially the lesser
of evils for you. It boiled down to choosing between being either angry or being anxious – angry
especially if you tried to come into compliance and had to spend big bucks in the process or
anxious about any other choice. Each one needs to choose which they can live better with.
From part 1, we learned about the range of emotions that the speaker and the participants have
experienced (disbelief, anger, fear, frustration, anxiety and/or depression, feeling of helplessness,
isolation, guilt about causing difficulties for our spouses or other family members who may not be
USCs, identity issues) because of this whole U S tax mess. I know I certainly have experienced most of these emotions since my OMG moment. I think the speaker is correct that we do need
to find a way to get over the anxiety and move on with our lives, but I personally am not there yet.
Part 2 was excellent and I agree with all those who have commented already and look forward
to Nobledreamer providing her notes, as I have to admit that there were a few things that I’m not
sure I fully understood or took good notes on. What I found most useful from part 2 were:
(1) You need to look at your options and consider them with some objective help and make a
logical decision NOT BASED on emotions
(2) We should not fear FBAR penalty collection in Canada
(3) Plan for renounciation and have a renounciation buddy you can contact any time you
should feel the urge to send anything to the IRS. You can always decide to cancel
or delay the renunciation process if need be
(4) Look at your total assets now and see if/how you can reduce them before renouncing
especially if you either would be over the 2 million mark or a covered expat due to
not having 5 years of tax compliance
(5) Do NOT go into any IRS voluntary disclosure programs and stay away from any tax
lawyer or tax preparer that tells you this is the only solution
(6) The speaker did believe that RBT is a real possibility in the near future and he did seem
to have confidence that the Canadian government would do the right thing. Sure hope
he’s right on both counts!
My last comment is that both speakers managed to inject some humour into their presentations
which was welcome when dealing with the meeting topics. It was great to be able to laugh
about some of this and to be with other people who really understand the toll this whole U S
tax mess takes on you!
I got to speak individually to a few of the participants. Wish I would have had more time to
speak to all of you, especially you Nobledreamer, but I had to leave to catch my flight. Can I
email you later Nobledreamer to ask some questions about 8854 details?
Any participant who was a Canadian green card holder living in the US?
I sincerely wish I could have come. Different perspective, but same emotions.
@Chris, sorry, but Speaker #2 asked us whether there was any green card holder in the group. As there was none, this was not discussed.
[Another recollection: The Speaker felt that the the angry commotion over FATCA may be key in moving us closer to RBT. I agree and hope that it will be the FATCA backlash in Canada that will make the difference.]
I was at the meeting and found it very informative and will be doing some calling. I will go the relinquish route. I was filing US taxes up to the last year when I became a Canadian citizen, which was 20 years ago.
It was great to meet all who were at the meeting. I will keep you abreast of what happens and will be in Toronto in a few weeks to go to the US Consul Anyone have any idea how long it takes to get an appt?
Thanks for doing this meeting. I hope this is not a duplicate post as I tried earlier.
I will be going the relinquishment route. it was good to meet with you all.
I wish to thank Nobledreamer and all who were at the meeting, speaker and new friends, for the peaceful sleep I had Saturday night.
It is still confusing but I believe I will be going the relinquishment route, hoping this can end my worries.
It took me 24 years to become a Canadian citizen after becoming landed and then 20 years to decide to not be an American anymore. I don’t think I was rushed or coerced. Once I am just a Canadian citizen I will have peace of mind.
Love and peace to you all.
Any information on the possible/future event in London? If someone gets any I would like to pass it along to some people in Europe.
@Northern Star,
Toronto has/had been booking relinquish/renounce through “notarial and other services” and has 20 appointments the third week of July. Not sure why the last week of July had no bookings available or why there were so few appts available in July to begin with. Toronto has been providing around 144 to 192 per month most months.
http://toronto.usconsulate.gov/service/notarials-and-authentications.html\
UPDATE: 19 June. I think I read the calendar wrong. Toronto *is* booking the last week of July. As of today, they have 16 appts available that week. In total, they have 42 slots remaining available in July.
However, I also see on their their website:
“Renunciation: Please send an e-mail to Torontopassport@state.gov for information and procedures on how to renounce or relinquish citizenship.”
So they may have changed the booking procedure.
http://toronto.usconsulate.gov/service/passports-and-citizenship.html
Please let us know how you booked. BTW, everyone who’s reported on Toronto found it to be a really pleasant and efficient consulate. You can read more about Toronto consulate meetings in the Consulate Report Directory.
It’s really good to hear you slept peacefully after going to the seminar. I know (we all do) how upsetting/disrupting life becomes when you find out you are or may be a “US person” in 2011-13.
@Pacifica,
Thanks for updating us on consulates having one, or two meetings. Weird about Montreal.
@albatross,
Of course you can. I’m not expert at 8854 though, just a warning! It was quite a challenge, even with my meagre means. nobledreamer 16 at gmail dot com.
@IRSCompliantForever,
Good call! I’d forgotten about the green card question totally. Hope I didn’t miss it in the notes. 🙂
@northernstar,
You’re welcome. Just keep telling yourself that your situation does not involve taxes. When you relinquish, the only thing to communicate is that you intended to lose your US citizenship when you accepted Canadian citizenship. It is a completely different situation from renouncing though neither is about taxes and the Toronto people, in my experience and hearing of others, are not interested in that. They merely need to be sure that you are doing this voluntarily. They CANNOT deny you as this is the only criteria they have to determine. Don’t worry about that question on the 4079. Put “No” and add that you didn’t file because you did not consider yourself a US Person. You have the option later on the form, to indicate if you want to give your reasons for giving up USC. Some people say something along the lines of living in Canada for so long, it’s a matter of feeling more Canadian. And nothing more. I really look forward to your day of freedom!
@All,
It sounds like you all remember a great deal about the meeting. I think the reason for checking the notes is that the last section took into account some specific situations and in addition to having concerns about people not thinking their own situation through and making a decision based on how they interpret those situations, it is extra important that my notes are correct. I didn’t ask why, but I think this may be part of the reason for checking them before posting.
It was a pleasure for me to address the psychological concerns at our group last Saturday in Toronto. I appreciated having the chance to tell my story and to hear those of others in attendance. As a clinician I can say that actions by the United States has clearly resulted in an enormous and deleterious amount of stress. This is no doubt an unhealthy situation. As a person, I was struck by the willingness of people to share their experience and help their comrades. Other than just listening, I do not know if I was able to offer any real help. But I’d like to keep trying and would look forward to participating in any further such gatherings.
@Dr. Don,
I am sure all who were there felt you were a huge help. Your insistence upon the fact that they can’t really do anything to us, was something all of us really needed to hear. It was effective because you didn’t tell us, you got us to realize it by asking us, over and over, “What is it you think that they can do to you?” I don’t think I understood as clearly before, that the fear was the real issue most of the time, not a balanced consideration of the facts. Thank you!
It would be great if we could find a way to continue. I normally would have done some online listings for notifying, but was too wrought up with trying to figure out all the final filings (I Am Done!) and forgot all about it. But definitely something for future.
I will be booking my leave so as to be able to attend the 28th July session in London. am so looking foward to it.
@hijacked, who wrote: “Was anything mentioned about tax/8854 requirements (or not) for pre-1994 relinquishments?”
Please note the two posts:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/16/did-you-relinquish-before-february-6-1995-then-you-did-not-have-to-inform-the-state-department/
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
The second speaker has dealt with this is in this way: Do not assume you are a citizen, particularly if you never created an affadavit saying you were a becoming a citizen of another country with the intention of keeping US citizenship. Indeed, the argument is strong that you are not a citizen. What should a person do about their taxes in such a situation, having relinquished years ago? Clearly nothing. (Me not the speaker). If you get a back dated CLN, do not file 8854 or any tax returns. Nothing said in the meeting contradicted the two above posts that have been a long standing resource here at Isaac Brock, reaching back in time to determine what the tax expatriation should be for a person who relinquished at various historical dates.
I just made my relinquishment appointment for July 15, 2013 in the Toronto Consulate. I am so excited.
If there are any tips for me to know. As far as I know I will fill out the forms 4083, 4081 and 1405-0178 .
I will take my Canadian Passport., immigration documents. birth certificate. Should I bring my marriage certificate since my last name is different than my birth last name? Also should I bring my husband’s death certificate?.
The meeting really, really motivated me. Thanks so much everyone. I would love to get together for another meeting with you all. I will keep you posted.
@ Northern Star,
Yes, they’ll want to see your marriage certificate for your change of name. I’m sorry that your husband has passed away. You should not need his death certificate. They will not ask about your family members.
When I went to Toronto, they asked me for birth certificate, Canadian citizenship document with date of citizenship acquisition (I think they looked at the plastic card too), and Canadian passport (or driver’s licence if you don’t have a passport – the vice consul told me it’s because they need current photo id).
Of course, if you have any doubt, you can always bring extra documents with you. Since I travelled from out of town, I took a couple of documents I didn’t think they’d need, just in case (turned out they didn’t). You can’t bring much into a US consulate, so I put all my papers in an 8-1/2×11 folder, the type with a few pockets in it.
You had me puzzled about the 1405-1078 – but I see that’s another name for the 4079.
Did you book on line or did you e-mail the consulate? I was wondering because I saw that line about e-mail on their website last night.
That’s great that you’ve set up your appointment. In a month, it’ll be all over — back to reality!
I booked online. There were a few dates available online, I typed in Canadian for citizenship and country of birth USA… and gave my Cdn passport number. I never had an American passport. Thank goodness.
I contacted another fellow expat who lives near me. He came up in 1970 and became citizen in 83. He went in April to Ottawa. He was not aware of the relinquishment process until a day before his Ottawa appointment. He and his wife already filed 6 years of FBURS and 3 years of taxes, on advice of the US Ottawa consulate. They did the relinquishment and saved $450 each. They did their tax papers themselves. They have not received their CLN yet.
I am so grateful for you and this website.
@NorthernStar,
You then have just made the unemotional, logical, business decision that was the concluding bottom line recommendation at the Toronto meeting.
I wish you the best and peaceful days and nights.
Spoke with Joe from Dems abroad and he was very helpful. They ARE fighting this, fully understand how wrong the consequences of FATCA are. Very interesting conversation. They haven’t been able to change what the politicians in D.C. seem to want to do and don’t seem to think they care about us much. However, Democrats abroad are still trying.
Also, wanted to input something that an IRS agent said to me on the phone when I explained I’m going to have to renounce to protect my family here, that I’m not alone and that I would owe them zero taxes. After going into detail with her and telling her I feel this is wrong to be doing this to people, I asked her if she felt this was wrong. She paused and then said to me “This IS wrong.” So the agents seem to get it in some cases though they are powerless to change the law. This was last month. Dems Abroad seemed to indicate that they too felt the agents in some cases were aware and may not agree with this situation at all. Will there be an Eric Snowden agent to come forward with our stories someday? Pipe dream.
So as to this meeting since so many having to deal with this from agents, to organizations to individuals, I think going forward do what is best for you. PERIOD. What I got from this meeting is don’t worry about what “they” will do, worry about what YOU will do and nothing else. I still have fear that they will disallow us back and that will make it very hard if not impossible to see my family there but, I’m not going to base my decision on that alone. The U.S. has launched a vicious attack on my innocent Canadian family. That’s the bottom line and all I need to address. The meeting just clarified this for me in a very laser like, attention directing way. I’m just going to do what any reasonable Canadian citizen would do in this situation. Get my family out of it.
@atticusincanada
Dems abroad are voting in elections so they do want to keep their citizenship and will have to comply. Most probably do file their us taxes.
@all
I am spending the day watching on Youtube the December 23,2013 FATCA Forum. Peter was at it. and others. I am in the middle of the CCLA presentation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ij2I9dHWuUE
I am quite astounded that FATCA applies to snowbirds…My boyfriend’s brother will be so surprised.
I have watched over 4 hours so far and am not done. I wish I had watched the forum before our meeting, but then I would have come to the meeting so much more angry…. I have written my MP (NDP) and asked him what he is doing about this, as there are many Americans who came up my way and stayed and became citizens or permanent residents. I wrote him I am watching what political party will respond for Our benefit. I will let you all know IF I get an answer.