Update 3:
Those in or near London, England might be interested that a similar event to take place there on Sunday, July 28, 2013, is in the works. I will post the details as the become available.
UDPATE 2:
Saturday, June 15
Don Mills United Church – 126 O’Connor Dr., Toronto, Ontario M4K 2K7
Click here for directions (at the corner of Pape and O’Connor, see google maps). There is some street parking.
Doors will open at 9:45 a.m.
UPDATE 1:
- There is to be no taping/recording/videoing of ANY part of the day.
- The day will be extended to encourage more people to attend.
- Attendance is free.
The morning session will focus primarily on the emotional issues and the afternoon session on practical issues.
Session I: The Financial and Emotional Costs of U.S. Citizenship Abroad
- When: Saturday June 15, 2013 – 10:00 a.m. – 12:00 noon
- Where: Downtown Toronto – Near U of T – Final location posted on June 13
- Who: a Senior Licensed Psychologist
Description: Since 2011, the Obama administration has subjected millions of people Living outside the United States to a vicious attack. This includes Reaching into Canada. The IRS has literally threatened millions of innocent persons living outside the United States with fines exceeding their personal wealth–up to 380% of their financial assets. For many, this experience has taken a toll on their mental and physical health, and that has been even greater than the financial damage. A psychologist will address the emotional issues associated with the threats and demands that IRS is making. He will describe his own emotional experience and encourage others to share their own emotional reactions to these circumstances. Strategies will be discussed on how to cope with the stress caused by the IRS and the difficulties of living as a U.S. person abroad.
Session II: US Citizenship Abroad and Compliance Issues – Where we have come from. Where we are. Where we may be going
- When: 1:00 p.m. – 3:00 p.m.
- Who: An experienced Toronto lawyer
- What: Focus on more practical issues
Description: Beginning in the summer of 2011 the IRS aided by the media and cross-border professionals began a relentless attack on U.S. citizens in Canada. The spectre of FATCA has worsened the situation. The purpose of this session will be to review:
- Summer of 2011 – where we have come from
- 2011 to now – where we are now
- 2014 and onwards – where we may be going
What might this mean for U.S. citizenship in Canada? What are some possible responses? How can/should you respond to a difficult situation?
Please note that although this event will take place on June 15, it is NOT a session on how to file a U.S. tax return. The discussion will however include relevant U.S. tax issues and reporting/information returns.
You may feel you need help because:
- You are or have been threatened by the imposition of life-altering fines for failing to file information returns you had no reason to know existed;
- You feel victimized by the Canadian and other non-U.S. media, who have constantly referred to you as a “tax cheat” and advised you to “come clean”;
- You feel “taken advantage of” by the so-called “cross-border professionals”.
You just want to be compliant with the law, but you receive conflicting advice, and nobody seems to be able to tell you how to do it, yet they are asking for “huge” fees; - You feel completely misunderstood by the non-U.S. citizens in your life. They can’t understand the feelings of fear, betrayal and injustice that you feel. In some cases, this experience has put your marriage at risk;
- Your health has been dramatically affected by all of this. You can’t sleep. You worry. You have gained or lost weight. You are no longer the happy person you were. You feel that your life has been stolen from you.
First published May 27, 2013
@Badger
Sorry to hear you can’t attend – was looking forward to a report from you for others who can’t attend either.
@badger
I second USCitizenAbroad’s comments…especially since I didn’t know you were there Dec 15.
@Petros & USCitizenAbroad
So we can provide info after the fact here? Wasn’t too sure about that since no recording etc
See you Saturday (for once I am glad I live in TO)
@Nobledreamer
Actually looks like you are right – presumably no taping recording means no public discussion of specifics.
@USCitizenAbroad & Petros
Let me know if I can help in any way on Sat. And thank you both so much for arranging this.
USCitizenAbroad Maybe part 1 is too private but wouldn’t part 2 be good to share? Like an overall strategy for future planning, etc?
@Calgary411, Congratulations to you, your husband and daughter!! You and your family must be so happy to get all this behind you! Glad you are staying on, you always give wonderful advice and have been so helpful! Thanks for all you do!!
@USCitizenAbroad and @nobledreamer,
I had thought that perhaps I could arrange for someone to go on my behalf – as last time, but not likely. Very sorry not possible for me.
Hello all. I too regret that I will not be able to attend this event as I will be preparing to leave for a two-week trip to Paris and London, mainly to visit with good friends in both cities and to catch-up on the 29 years since I lived and worked for a summer in the UK as a newly-minted Ryerson grad. 1984, to be precise, though the actual year was certainly more enjoyable than the literary version, which time is only now catching up to, as USCitizenAbroad has been masterfully demonstrating.
As evidence of how much the world has changed for me in the last two years, I was originally planning to book a round-trip flight from New York to Paris until I realized I wouldn’t yet have a CLN, without which I might risk not being allowed to board the return flight from Paris to New York (the old US birthplace on a Canadian passport issue). New York’s loss and Montreal’s gain – Americans are shooting themselves in the feet at every turn and aren’t even aware of it.
@badger,
Could you please email me at nobledreamer16 at gmail dot com? Thanks.
Here’s the link If you would like to print up some Isaac Brock Society business cards to hand out at the seminar. They look like this, but standard business card size:
Any further info about the similar meeting you mention in London please? Gutted about the proposed date of 28 July as I would not be able to attend, but would send a deputy!
Hi,
Used to participate at the old expat forum. My husband and I are driving to the meeting in Toronto. I thought I’d go by myself but, logistics of doing so weren’t that easy so we’ll both come and drive down. I do not drive and we will need to rent a car to come but, it will be worth it. Looking forward to attending this because we are just overwhelmed. You know it’s not like this is ALL folks have to deal with in life. It’s just so much of a pile ON it’s hard to even get close to dealing with it.
@Atticus
Will be great to meet u. Have been thinking about wearing some sort of name tag to encourage people to feel comfortable to talk. Probably a picture of Brock or something…with at least nobledreamer on it if not my real name which I believe you know! 🙂
Yes, I know! We rented a car to come to T.O. D.S. GEEZ, this just gets curiouser as it goes along. I had to get away from this as I was just about to have a nervous break down and D.S. went WAY down hill for quite a while….. so this meeting will be perfect for me….LOL! Looking forward to tomorrow. 🙂 Kind of an oasis. I left a phone message for dems abroad, they said they’d email me…nothing and no phone call returned. Drive safe those who are driving!
@Petros et al.,
Thank you so much for making the lively Toronto meeting happen.
One of the take home messages was that our plans should not be guided by emotion–just make the logical business decision.
This is good advice, but my lasting reaction to the thoughtful detailing by the speaker of the Alice-in Wonderland, mean-spirited and bumbling history of the IRS assault will remain one of anger.
My other reaction was that none of my non-US person friends and colleagues would ever believe (or accept?) what was presented.
Thank you everyone for coming out today and especially Petros who gave us all the opportunity to do this. I really found it helpful. Meeting all of you of like mind and heart was wonderful!!
I was most impressed by both speakers and especially loved the comments and references during the first session to some words I’m familiar with from Mr. Chomsky. I also felt that it was a great idea to do a session dealing with the emotions surrounding this rather out of body and mind experience. That was followed by a VERY practical advice session which gave me quite a lot to think about.
Stupendous day all around!
I’m so glad that you attended this, AtticusinCanada. Also glad to have such a strong advocate back. Take care.
Thanks for the feedback, AtticusinCanada and IRSCompliantForever. Thanks to Petros and the presenters who generously offered this opportunity to those in Toronto. Cheers!
Today was really a wonderful opportunity and I wish we could somehow do this more often on an ongoing basis. I looked forward to this so much because the only people who understand where we are are the others going through it.
What I take from it was that I definitely did decide on an emotional basis – one of fear which has grown into a huge, festering anger. I guess I am lucky that in spite of that, the best logical option for me was to renounce. After the “ceremony” I was basically numb, it didn’t feel real. But once I started the last round of filing, the forms, the ridiculousness of calculating such small amounts of interest, gain etc, under the never-ending threat of life-altering penalties, I was even more angry. If the US ever does move to residence-based taxation, I will not regret what I have done. You couldn’t hand me my USCitizenship back on a silver platter.
I was impressed by the practicality of both of the presentations. Emphasis on: FBAR fear is, at least at this point, exaggerated and two, what can they really do to anyone? This is our hidden weapon, the one they would least likely expect us to realize we have. To challenge their threats by not overestimating their power.Thus, those like Schumer, out of desparation and rage, promise they will punish us further by not allowing us back in. That is not the same as real power.
There was clear information about the various possibilities of one’s situation-what do do if owed tax (or not), filed tax (or not) and filed FBAR (or not). Notwithstanding each situation is unique, the options are a lot more obvious, 2 years into this. l am eternally grateful for the efforts of all those who have spent countless hours trying to decipher IRS-speak, Department of State forms, etc and all of it for it provided me a way out. I still say, the one thing they (IRS et al) forget, is that we are Americans and we fight back. And I have a renewed appreciation for the CDN gov, in spite of fear they will cave to an IGA etc. There is more here than it may seem. When push comes to shove, perhaps Canada will start taking a look at how to use facts such as the US gets 40% of their oil from us, etc, they don’t look kindly at CDN money flowing down to that debt-riddled cesspool of exceptionalism to the south.
Thank you Petros and USCitizenAbroad, for an eye-opening experience! And to all who participated, sharing situations, strategies, fears, et al. An extremely valuable day.
Its so good to hear how much everyone benefited from today’s session. I wish I lived closer to TO, because I definitely would have attended.
Shadow Raider aösp mentioned some things about FBAR not being as fearful. It would be nice for all to hear a summary of the presentation.
@all, You’re certainly welcome, but I admit having little to do with the event except showing up with my wise cracks. My main contribution was to give it air at this website. The thanks go to the two speakers, for taking the initiative and making it happen.
@All
There will be a detailed summary of part 2; I want to send to the speaker first to make sure I haven’t misunderstood anything major. Some things were a bit technical that I had little to no understanding of.
Not sure about much from part 1. The idea there, was to allow for protected, personal sharing. There were some moments where I would feel abusive of that were I to write anything that was said.
@Nobledreamer, here are a few of my morning “remembrances” and impressions of yesterday’s part 2 discussion in Toronto—my recollections might not have correctly reflected speaker’s comments. Could you please revise if I am not correct on any of the points?:
-Speaker often used the term “confiscation” rather than “taxation.”
-Do not fear IRS 8854 “exit tax” as most will be ok. Just figure out how to get under threshold (e.g., gifting).
-You all know this, but do not ever, ever trust any specific “voluntary disclosure program” of IRS (Streamlined, whatever). What I did was to become compliant (forever) by simply sending in past income tax and FBAR returns with a letter of explanation. Some of my friends are also doing this now. Where does it say that I MUST participate in any of the formal risky disclosure programs that will likely be changed on a daily basis to our detriment?
-Speaker asked a nice trick question: What is the consequence of filing or beginning to file IRS income tax and FBAR forms? Answer: You are now in the system—Gotcha!
-Are you really a US citizen? Really? If you were “forced” to obtain a US passport because some border guard would not let you in to the country for a visit, does this, alone, necessarily make you a US citizen? Speaker argues not necessarily.
-Voting (as I still do) is, on the other hand, rather good evidence that a person does not have, at that point in time, intent to give up US citizenship. Also as I became a Canadian citizen in the 1980’s and was worried that this act might be expatriating, I filed an affidavit with DOS confirming that I do not intend to give up my treasured US citizenship and later received a decision-reply that all is ok. Seemed like the right thing to do at the time.
-You had to have been there, but we were really enthralled by a lengthy history discussion of the IRS assault on the poor little Canadian (Swiss etc.) mutual fund. I ask you: what other group of persons worldwide would find such a discussion exciting? It seems that Canadian mutual funds, taxed in a very special confiscatorial (?) way for political reasons, might or might not be toxic as “finalized regulations” still have not yet been made. Nevertheless, there is high risk that they are dangerous. What to do if you have them? Risky whatever you do. I unloaded the few that I had from my RRSP with my reasonable understanding that I was protected by the US-Canada tax treaty on this point. I did not receive any comments at the meeting that this was not a reasonable approach.
-As the future may be more bleak because of acceleration in new creative IRS ideas, “planning” for renouncement with a first meeting at a consulate was mentioned as one reasonable-logical option (but do not do this for emotional-only reasons). You can always postpone this or later meeting at consulate and change your mind.
-Nevertheless, the speaker, even with his awareness and experience, was optimistic that RBT will actually happen—my repeated questioning on this could not sway him from this opinion. He still retains optimism.
@IRSCompliantForever
What you are saying sounds correct to me.
My only comment, which I did not get in yesterday, is that consulates began doing renunciations in one visit a while ago. Whether there has been any change there or whether there is consistency across the board, I don’t know. My son is coming to Toronto to renounce on June 25 so we’ll know what TO is doing.
@Nobeldreamer, thanks, I (and I suspect the speaker) did not know that renunciations could ever be done in one visit. I wonder then if the process of formally “accepting” the renunciation will now be faster.
@IRSCompliantForever
As I recall, the number of renunciations in several places (esp Toronto, London and some places in Switzerland), were dramatically rising and reducing the visits from 2 to 1 was a direct result. I expect Pacifica would have more info on that or one could look at the Consulate visit post for various details.