Yesterday, Fauzia Kasuri, a senior member of the Pakistani political party Movement for Justice (Tahrik-e Insaf), went to the U.S. Consulate General in Lahore to take the Oath of Renunciation of United States Citizenship. Unlike we ordinary renunciants — who depending on the consulate might get sent away without any proof at all that our renunciation is in progress — Kasuri got a signed letter from Consul Marc A. Snider (pictured at right) confirming her renunciation and even committing publicly to a timeline for issuing a Certificate of Loss of Nationality to her:
The oath of renunciation taken on the above date is the final act that Ms. Kasuri must take in the relinquishment process. The U.S. Consulate General has retained Ms. Kasuri’s passport and will forward the information from the renunciation to the Department of State in Washington, D.C. for final processing, which normally takes two to four weeks. Once complete, the Department of State will forward a copy of the final certificate to Ms. Kasuri for her records.
Anyone reading this managed to get a CLN in two weeks? It took Petros more than a year to get his, and while we’ve had reports that it’s taking somewhat less time these days, two to four weeks is certainly not the “normal” timeline — this is a flat-out lie by State to try to keep themselves from looking ridiculously slow. Clearly, the boys & girls in Mordor Washington are rushing Kasuri’s paperwork through the system; in a country which was allegedly founded on the premise that “all men are created equal”, politicians get special treatment while the rest of us have to wait … and wait … and wait …
For those of you who haven’t been following South Asian politics recently, last year Pakistan started along the same road that Jamaica went down in 2008: with the breaking of the old truce under which parties on all sides turned a blind eye to illegally-held dual citizenships, election petitions are being filed left and right to invalidate the results of races in which one candidate held a non-Pakistani passport, and elected officials are scrambling for proof that they have rid themselves of all outside allegiances.
On the whole, Pakistani legislators have shown themselves to be far brighter than their Jamaican counterparts in their choice of foreign citizenship: most of the disgraced politicians turned out to have British or Canadian passports buried in their sock drawers. Only two or three people in the 342-member National Assembly of Pakistan seem to have been hiding U.S. passports, in contrast to more than half a dozen in the 63-seat Jamaican House of Representatives. They had to hide their U.S. passports from not only the public but from the “Internal” Revenue Service — one of only two tax agencies on earth which invades other countries to collect information & income from non-resident citizens.
The other Pakistani politician who was foolish enough to keep a U.S. passport was Nuzhat Sadiq of the Pakistan Muslim League (N). Sadiq resigned from the National Assembly in March 2012, and then her name showed up just four months later in the U.S. Federal Register Q2 2012 list of persons losing U.S. citizenship. Incidentally, Sadiq is well above the $2 million wealth threshold required to be a covered expatriate for purposes of the U.S. exit tax — in her 2008 electoral asset declaration, she declared her net worth to be Rs. 912.81 million, or about US$9 million. Some people think this may have even been an understatement, given that her 2011 asset declaration did not list any cars, while her 2012 asset declaration was challenged as false and incomplete.
@Joe Zinga, there’s no need to give a reason. She’s telling the US embassy that she committed an expatriating act by becoming a Canadian citizen 36 years ago. Whether you relinquish as she is, or renounce, there is absolutely no need to give a reason for doing so. You can make a statement of your reasons if you want to, but it’s in no way obligatory for you to do so. I renounced at Bern’s embassy here in Switzerland at the beginning of this month and didn’t make any kind of statement, just provided the necessary paperwork and then did the ceremony with the consular official. That is all that you have to do.
@Rose, that is an amazing timeline! I doubt even the rich people will be getting their renunciations completed so quickly. Well done, Perth.
@ Joe,
I agree with Medea, no need to give a reason. It’s highly unlikely they’ll ask.
About a year ago, one or two long-ago relinquishers reported someone at Toronto asking why they were applying for a CLN now, after all these years, and they answered because they’d only just heard about it. No one was giving them a hard time or anything, they just asked.
At any rate, with 36 years since it occurred, the 4079 itself shows the “reason” you want a CLN (basically to officially document the reality of your life).
If by any chance (extremely unlikely and I don’t think any relinquisher’s ever reported being asked this) she’s asked why she chose to relinquish 36 years ago, I’d just say because Canada is where I would live the rest of my life and I was no longer connected to the US. (actually I put something like that in my 4079, the question about it being an intentional act.)
The whole process goes pretty fast (in general, most of the time is waiting). The clerk will take your documents upon arrival and the consul will read them before you meet with him or her. So, they generally don’t ask you anything because they’ve read everything they need to know. My experience, pretty typical, was about 10 minutes with the clerk, 45 minutes in the waiting area, and about 10 minutes with the consul. All interaction was conversational, not confrontational.
From the reports I’ve read, Calgary sounds like an efficient and pleasant place to deal with .
@ Medea and Pacifica 777. Thank you all. Very helpful and encouraging.
@Rose,
Very cool, your statement — “I decided on arrival in Perth to put my energy into integrating into the local community. I feel I am very Australian now after living here for more than 40 years.” You’re not biased — you say these things because you chose to live there. Those are my views of Calgary in Alberta, Canada where we chose to live in 1969.
That is how so many of us longer-time (and of course newer-time) expats feel about the countries we chose to live in if we choose to live where we are for other reasons than just employment and the plan to return to the US (which is fine; it just isn’t us) / raise our families in / be contributing members and taxpayers of that society. It appears we were (at least I was) lulled into complacency, thinking we had a right to choose where we lived — not realizing the leash on us with US citizenship-based taxation laws and now FATCA.
Perth sounds wonderful — I hope to be able to visit Australia (and New Zealand) one day. Once again, congratulations on your renunciation and our thanks for giving us a glimpse of where you chose to live. Cheers!
Question 13 (e) on DS4079 asks if you have ever paid US taxes. My spouse has never paid US taxes. By answering no does this open up any risks with the IRS?
Depends on WHY she is filling the form out.
@calgary411
If you ever get as far as Perth in your travels, it would be lovely to meet up with you.
@kalc. To relinquish
Like notamused, when I relinquished at the Frankfurt consulate in 2011, I was also given a similar letter, also without an estimated date for the CLN. However when I asked how long it would take, I was told “about 4 weeks”. And that’s how long it took.
Since they took my passport away and in Germany you are required to carry an ID, I nervously carried a copy of that letter around with me in lieu of an ID, together with the paperwork from German authorities saying they’d naturalize me as soon as I got the CLN.
Joe Zinga Doesn’t change the risk either way. She is saying- ‘i relinquished, i am not American, of course I didn’t pay US taxes”
The Embassy in London believes that CLNs are currently taking around three months to arrive after making the oath. From what I’ve read our database, one person’s CLN arrived within two months while the other’s took about five months.
Well here is some proof at least. It took 2 weeks to the day from our email request to get an appointment for relinquishment. Two more weeks to get our CLNs back. Three family members were processed one after the other in 45 minutes time at the Tel Aviv Embassy. It could not have been more relaxed or pleasant.
We were told by the very kind Embassy Officer on May 6th 2013 it would take two weeks to get our CLNs back from Washington. Today May 20th, 2012 I was emailed the following:
— From the Embassy today 5/20/2013 ——
The requests for relinquish your citizenship was approved. (S…, D…. and K…..)
Could I send the certificates via courier services. Courier services will call you and ask your credit card number to pay NIS40. They will schedule An appointment to bring it to your house.
Please advise the address where to send and tel. numbers.
Thank you.
Sincerely
M…. S….. /American citizen services unit
@Yitsi, when I renounced at the London embassy earlier this year, they told me it would probably take around three months to receive my CLN; in fact, it only took seventeen days to be approved and exactly one month to actually arrive!!! All I can think is that the numbers are surging and they’re thus streamlining the expatriation process.
@monalisa That was really fast too! Seems that DOS s really trying to get ahead of the curve on processing the paperwork. For those who want a more complete report of my experience, See
Success to Everyone!
Yitzi — again, congratulations to you all. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/comment-page-8/#comment-346552
I renounced my us citizenship on May 20, at the us embassy in London England, and received my CLN today, June 14. Less than a month later. So in my case “two to four weeks” to receive the CLN is accurate.
The embassy staff was very polite and efficient. There were no lines, only myself and one other woman who was more-or-less unaware that she had been a us citizen by birth.
@Robert: congratulations on your CLN.
So perhaps the State Department has actually resolved their earlier systemic delay issues, and remaining delays are incidental rather than widespread. I’d be more convinced if they set benchmarks for themselves and released metrics in their budget documents on whether they’re meeting them, like these the Hong Kong Immigration Department does (showing that they process about 95% of all applications for renunciation — which despite the name is more analogous to a US relinquishment — within two months from the date of application, and 100% of all requests for “declaration of change of nationality” — roughly like a US renunciation — on the same day). Of course, transparency is the last thing we can expect from the US government on this issue …
But anyway, at least the anecdotal reports are more encouraging than they were before.
@Eric..It seems kind of arbitrary. I renounced on May 6 in Jerusalem and still haven’t received my CLN.
Sorry…May 7. For some reason I keep thinking it was a day earlier..
I almost missed the new national speed record for CLN issuance: René González visited the US Interests Section at the Swiss Embassy in Havana on 6 May:
http://news.yahoo.com/photos/rene-gonzalez-accompanied-wife-olga-salanueva-leaves-u-photo-221758036.html
And four days later he gave a press conference to show off his CLN:
http://www.boston.com/news/world/caribbean/2013/05/10/cuban-spy-officially-stripped-citizenship/2vYcdr8lqPjJD04V7fVe8O/story.html
My friedn renounced early January 2014 and, three months (not weeks!!) later, has not received anything yet!!
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Renounced in Edinburgh October 5 2015… Still awaiting a CLN.
If anyone who happens to read this knows what the waiting time is now
please let me know. This entire nightmare of persecution to potential ruin by big government
for daring to be born American , moving abroad with a parent as a child
and now, US Federal Government forbid, trying to earn a living as a small business, just seems to never end. I cannot move in any direction until I have been given proof by The Authorities that
I am no longer that greatest of modern Pariahs, an expat American.
Effectively dead in the water until the CLN. Like many millions am finding this torture for being alive destroying my health and my loved one’s lives as they witness such injustice.
@Madamarcarti
Welcome to Isaac Brock.
I am afraid there is no rhyme or reason for the various wait times for a CLN.
The wait ranges from a few weeks to over a year. Europe seems to be a little faster than elsewhere.
Did your Embassy give you a receipt for the renunciation fee? Some banks will accept this until the CLN arrives.
Have you emailed the Embassy and told them of your predicament? Some Embassies are helpful and may contact the state Dept. Failing that you can contact the State Dept yourself , but 3 months seems par for the course I am afraid.
@Madam, as Heidi stated the payment receipt. You could also get a copy of the Oath of Renunciation which is seperate from the CLN. If they give you a copy, that may do the trick with payment receipt.
How long was the wait to get an appt in Edinborough?