Most of us here have little interest in going back to live in the U.S., but others who are considering giving up U.S. citizenship may be worried about whether they’ll be able to get back into the country in case their career takes them there in the future, or to care for aging relatives, or for any number of other reasons, either temporarily or permanently.
Though there are some cases which may show evidence of the USCIS trying to retaliate against renunciants when it comes to visas and treatment at the border, there are also many examples of ex-citizens both low-profile and high-profile who have managed to return to live in U.S., among them naturalised Japanese citizen Arudou Debito (the former David Aldwinckle, now an affiliate scholar at the East-West Center in Honolulu), Taiwan constitutional court judge Chen Be-yue (who renounced in 1996 and then got a green card in 2008 through her U.S.-born daughter, though she wisely cancelled it again the following year), and Fred Alger (who came back on an H-1B visa to rebuild Alger Asset Management after all its employees were killed in the WTC attacks).
A recent article in the Korea Times, a Korean diaspora newspaper published in North America, gives us many more examples of Korean Americans who gave up their U.S. citizenship to try their hand at politics in South Korea, then returned to the U.S. when things didn’t work out. I’ve translated it below.
시민권 포기 후… 취업비자로 신분 유지 |
Maintaining [residence] status in U.S. with employment visa after giving up citizenship |
| http://www.koreatimes.com/article/781940 | |
| 김종훈 사태 계기로 본 한인인사 사례 | Korean American examples, starting with Kim Jeong-hoon |
| 남문기·이용태 전 회장… 투자비자 이용도, 미 국적 다시 취득하기는 사실상 불가능 | [Korean-American Federation of Los Angeles] Ex-Presidents Nam Moon-key, Lee Young-tae used investor visas, but getting U.S. citizenship again seems impossible |
| 입력일자: 2013-03-07 (목) | Publication date: 7 March 2013 (Thu.) |
| 새로 출범한 박근혜 정부의 미래창조과학부 장관으로 내정됐다가 자진 사퇴한 미주 한인 1.5세 출신 김종훈 전 벨연구소 사장의 이중국적 문제 논란 등을 계기로 과거 한국 공직에 진출하기 위해 시민권을 포기했던 한인사회 주요 인사들의 미국 내 체류 신분에 대한 궁금증이 증폭되고 있다. | Kim Jeong-hoon, the 1.5-generation Korean American former Bell Labs president who was nominated to be the Minister for Innovation and Science in the newly-formed government of Park Geun-hye, voluntarily withdrew [from the nomination process]. With the controversy over his dual citizenship, people are increasingly wondering about past examples of leading figures in the Korean American community who gave up U.S. citizenship to try to advance to public positions in South Korea, but now have residence status in the United States. |
For those of you who haven’t been keeping up to date with South Korean politics, Kim Jeong-hoon is a naturalised U.S. citizen who was nominated to a position in the South Korean government in mid-February, and stated that he would relinquish his U.S. citizenship. However, there was a surprising groundswell of objections to his nomination from the opposition coalition, and then the South Korean news media, which is normally a reasonably sober source of information about giving up U.S. citizenship, started spreading all sorts of FUD. Two of the more prominent examples were YTN News, which got up in arms about the fact that, two whole days after he got his Korean citizenship back, “Nominee Kim Jeong-hoon had his nationality restored but still hasn’t given up U.S. citizenship”, and Dong-A Ilbo, which hysterically claimed that “the CIA may deny him permission to give up citizenship”.
Eventually, Kim decided that he would not be able to give up his U.S. citizenship, and then withdrew from the nomination process. The exact reason for that is another post in itself; I’m still busy translating the relevant articles. Let’s just say for now that the U.S. Homeland papers aren’t giving you the whole story.
The U.S., unlike dozens of other countries ranging from Australia to the United Kingdom to the Philippines, offers no special procedure for people who gave up citizenship to resume it, or even to easily obtain visas afterwards. This reflects the larger U.S. view that the diaspora is not a potentially valuable source of brain circulation, but simply a bunch of backpacking kids, oddballs, and disaffected losers who should be derided and ignored.
| 김종훈 전 내정자의 경우 한국 국적 회복 절차는 밟았지만 미국 시민권은 포기하지 않은 채 다시 미국으로 돌아왔지만, 이민법 전문가들에 따르면 미국 시민권을 포기할 경우 미국 내 체류신분이 곧바로 상실되고, 한 번 포기한 시민권은 다시 취득하기가 극히 어렵기 때문에 문제가 되고 있다. | In former nominee Kim Jeong-hoon’s case, he went through with the procedures for getting his South Korean nationality restored but did not yet give up his U.S. citizenship and so was able to come back to the United States. However, according to immigration law experts, you lose your residence status in the U.S. after giving up citizenship, and afterwards it is very difficult to regain citizenship, which can be a problem. |
| 시민권 포기 후 미국에 재입국하기 위해서는 합법체류 비자를 새로 취득해야 한다는 것이다. | In order to re-enter the United States after giving up citizenship, it is necessary to obtain a legal residence visa. |
Again, in black-and-white: it is clearly possible for an ex-U.S. citizen to get a visa to return to live in the United States. The misconception that it is impossible seems to stem from misunderstandings and internet rumours about the never-enforced Reed Amendment, but even those who have a professional duty to be better-informed about the law clearly are not. One of my favourite examples is the racist San Buenaventura/Santa Barbara, California immigration lawyer who goes around on Yahoo! Answers scaring everyone who even mentions giving up U.S. citizenship with nonsense about how you will “never ever set foot on US soil again” after you “p*ss the world’s most desirable citizenship — the US one — down the toilet” and “told [Uncle Sam] to shove his citizenship where the sun don’t shine” and how you must be “mentally ill” to give up “a passport that oil sheikhs would pay $10 million for”.
Anyway, the journalist goes on to bring up the case of Chris Nam, whom we briefly discussed last September. Nam, who gave up U.S. citizenship to become the head of South Korea’s equivalent of Republicans Abroad, stepped down from his position after less than a month due to controversy over his having been a dual citizen (which was not legal under South Korean law until recently), and is now back in Los Angeles. Of course, the fact that in the first place he was willing to move halfway around the world and turn in his U.S. passport (and pay the ex-citizen/green card-holder tax) to take up a position like that should tell you that the diaspora actually enjoys some political power in South Korea, unlike in the United States.
| 지난 2011년 새누리당의 전신인 한나라당 재외국민위원장에 임명된 뒤 시민권을 포기했던 남문기 전 미주총연 회장의 경우 현재 자신이 운영하는 회사인 뉴스타부동산을 통해 취업비자(H-1)를 받아 체류신분을 유지하고 있다. | Another case was [Chris] Nam Moon-key, the former President of the Federation of Korean American Associations who in 2011 was nominated to be the Head of the Commission on Overseas Nationals of the Grand National (Hannara) Party, the predecessor of the New Frontier (Saenuri) Party. He gave up his U.S. citizenship, but received an H-1 employment visa to work at his company New Star Realty, and is now staying in the U.S. again. |
| 당시 한나라당 재외국민위원장에 임명된 뒤 복수국적 논란으로 한 달 만에 사퇴한 적이 있는 남 전 회장은 “국적문제에 있어 내가 제일 큰 피해자”라며 “시민권이 없으니 이만저만 불편하게 아니다”고 말했다. | Nam was nominated to be president of the then-Grand National Party’s Commission on Overseas Nationals, but his earlier dual nationality caused a controversy, and he withdrew after just one month. He stated that “I was the biggest victim of the nationality problem” but that “not having [U.S.] citizenship is actually not all that inconvenient”. |
Notice that Nam wisely did not acquire a green card, even though he could presumably afford the price tag for an EB-5 — New Star is said to be the largest Korean-run real estate company in the U.S., and Nam even mentioned in interviews that he met the $2 million asset threshold for the Form 8854 tax. Presumably he’s decided that while he might enjoy living in the U.S., he plans to retire in his native country, and having paid a high price to get rid of U.S. Person status once, he doesn’t want to pay it again when it comes time for him to leave.
In the 1990s, in contrast, successful 1st-generation Korean Americans trying to parachute back into South Korea and break the domestic elite’s monopoly on politics were not so well-informed; like some wealthy mainland Chinese people today (and the media which cluelessly apes their attitudes), they saw the U.S. passport or green card as a “status symbol” and didn’t really understand the costs of keeping it, a phenomenon which in China is only now starting to change; see for example this October 2012 South China Morning Post article, or this comment by Fred from a few days ago.
| 지난 1996년 총선 당시 신한국당 후보로 전남 순천 국회의원 선거에 나간 장성길 전 LA 한인회장은 국회의원 출마를 위해 시민권을 포기했지만 낙선했다. 장 전 회장은 이후 한동안 한국에서 생활하다 시민권을 유지하고 있던 부인을 통해 영주권을 회복했다고 한다. | In the general election in 1996, former Korean-American Federation of Los Angeles president Chang Sunggill ran as the New Korea (Shinhanguk) Party candidate to represent Suncheon, Jeollanam-do in the National Assembly. He gave up his citizenship to run in the election, but was defeated. After some time living in South Korea, Chang was able to get U.S. permanent residency again through his wife, who had retained her [U.S.] citizenship. |
Of course, under the version of the ex-citizen tax that had just come into effect in 1996, a person like Chang living in his own or his parents’ country of birth could obtain a ruling from the IRS exempting him from payment of the tax. (Under the new system since 2004, this has been restricted to people who were born dual nationals.) And once he got his green card, he’d get a step-up in basis on any of his U.S. assets for purpose of any future capital gains tax. Chang is now a real estate agent in Beverly Hills. And as a relinquisher rather than a renunciant, he’s presumably even still eligible to buy guns without any problems from the FBI’s NICS background check system.
One other interesting thing is that Mr. Chang, like virtually every public figure who gave up citizenship prior to 2006, appeared in the Federal Register name-and-shame list, in his case for Q1 1997 — but a 2008 relinquisher mentioned in the article does not appear. This fits the pattern we observed earlier: starting in the Bush/Paulson era, the lists of ex-Americans — which purportedly showed a huge drop in people giving up citizenship — are actually quite incomplete.
| 이용태 전 LA 한인회장은 지난 2008년 한국에서 제18대 총선 출마를 위해 시민권을 포기했던 경우이다. | There’s also the case of Korean-American Federation of Los Angeles president Lee Young-tae, who gave up U.S. citizenship to run in the 18th general election in 2008. |
| 이 전 회장은 한나라당 비례대표 신청에서 낙선한 뒤 자신이 설립한 양로보건센터를 통해 다시 투자비자(E-2)를 취득했으며 현재는 영주권을 회복한 상태다. 이 전 회장은 “영주권은 받았지만 시민권을 다시 취득하기는 쉽지 않다”고 말했다. | After Lee lost out in his bid for a seat on the Grand National Party list, he obtained an E-2 investor visa through the nursing home which he had founded, and has now got his permanent residence back. Lee stated, “I received permanent residence, but getting citizenship back again is not so easy.” |
If Lee indeed got a green card, then the clock is ticking for him. If he’s still holding it in 2015, then he becomes a “long-term permanent resident” for purposes of Section 877A, and if he gives up his green card — or even if he’s administratively deemed to have “abandoned” it by spending too long outside of the U.S. or taking the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion — then he’ll owe the Form 8854 tax again. Should have stayed with the E-2. In fact, there is quite a bit of evidence that investors these days prefer E-2s over EB-5s for precisely that reason, like this British family.
But of course, Homelanders can’t understand this concept at all, as seen by the tone of the linked article — the entire visa system is premised around the idea that everyone in the world wants to “immigrate” and spend all the rest of their days in the U.S. and the system must carefully screen to make sure people on “non-immigrant visas” do not have “immigrant intent”, when in reality people at all levels, ranging from unauthorised guest workers all the way up to company bosses, often just want to come in for a fixed purpose of earning some money, and move on to the next destination when they’re finished. In simpler terms: to Homelanders, every foreigner who comes to the U.S. is an “immigrant”, but every American who lives abroad is an “expat”.
| 또 김영태 전 LA 한인회장은 지난 2000년 4월 16대 총선에서 자민련 소속으로 자신의 고향인 강원도 철원에 출마했었으나, 이를 위해 1999년 12월 한국 국적을 회복해 복수국적을 유지한 상태에서 이듬해 4월 총선을 치렀지만 낙선하자 시민권 포기를 신청하지 않은 경우다. | Also, there’s the case of former Korean-American Federation of Los Angeles president Kim Young-tae, who joined the race in his own hometown of Chilwon, Gangwon-do for the 16 April 2000 elections under the banner of the United Liberal Democratic Front (Jaminryeon). In order to do that, he had his South Korean nationality restored in December 1999, and held dual nationality for four months right through the election without applying to give up his [U.S.] citizenship. |
| 그는 “국적 회복에는 보통 4~6개월이 소요되며 국적을 회복한 뒤 1년 내에 시민권을 포기, 이를 한국 정부에 제출해야 절차가 마무리 된다”며 “이 기간에 선거를 치르게 돼 시민권을 포기하지 않아도 됐다”고 말했다. | He stated that “restoration of [South Korean] nationality normally takes four to six months, and then within one year of your nationality being restored you have to give up [U.S.] citizenship as the final part of the procedure set by the South Korean government” and that “during that period I lost the election, so it’s a good thing I didn’t give up my citizenship”. |
As mentioned earlier, the Korea Times is a Korean diaspora newspaper, distributed in various major metropolitan areas in North America. That means, for the most part, that their readers consist of people who voluntarily uprooted themselves from South Korea and want to go on living in the United States, and have never experienced life outside of the U.S. as a U.S. citizen or green card holder, with all its attendant information reporting consequences. More recently, those who dared leave any money in South Korea rather than patriotically bringing all their capital with them to the Land of Milk and Honey are starting to understand some of those consequences. But except for the increasing number of unfortunates caught up in that problem, they think of U.S. citizenship as a valuable prize to be jealously guarded and protected.
| 미주 한인으로 첫 현지 출신 LA 총영사를 역임한 김재수 변호사의 경우 영주권자 신분이어서 총영사 재직 때부터 현재까지 한국 국적을 유지하고 있는 것으로 알려졌다. | In the case of lawyer Kim Jae-su, who was the first Los Angeles Consul-General to be selected from among Korean emigrants, he held permanent resident status, and from the time he took up the post of Consul-General up until today has maintained his South Korean nationality. |
| 이승우 변호사는 “시민권을 포기하면 영주권자가 되는 것이 아니라 아예 체류신분이 없어진다”며 “다시 시민권을 취득하기 위해서는 처음부터 이민 절차를 다시 밟아야 하지만 과거 시민권 포기 사실이 불리하게 작용한다”고 말했다. | Lawyer Lee Seung-woo stated that “If you give up citizenship, you don’t become a permanent resident but instead you lose your residence status entirely” and that “in order to get citizenship again, you have to start the process all the way over from the beginning, but the fact that you were formerly a citizen can be a disadvantage”. |
It’s another “exceptional” quirk of the U.S. system that dual citizens living in the U.S. are unable to renounce citizenship so that they can claim the consular protection of their other country of citizenship or take up a diplomatic appointment on its behalf. Hong Kong, for example, processes such applications within 24 hours, and afterwards you retain the right of abode or the right to land in Hong Kong, as the case may be. And of course, when was the last time you heard of an American living abroad being appointed into a consular position in the country where he lives? Silly rabbit, consular appointments are for career civil servants and big political donors.
What family or country??? Steve. Most of the expatriates here have chosen a life and a family that does not include the United States. Most spouses are foreign citizens and the expats have chosen to side with their family that they have built up a life with. So where do you get the idea that people have chosen money over family and country? There’s no accounting for American exceptionalism with you, is there, Steve? As far as I’m concerned, your country is in debt up to the hilt due to spending more money that you have to push your war machine. Your president would flunk Economics 101 and your populace is nothing more than brain-washed “exceptionalists” who think your country doesn’t stink! Your president has just given the order to remove border jumpers (illegals) from south of the US Mexico border from incarceration and is offering to give them clemency and a road to citizenship, while he tries to stick his hands in the pockets of hardworking expats and claim that they are criminals because they didn’t file a paper form that everyone ignored before the spending policies of your current president put the economy of your country into a deathspiral into the toilet. Tell me why the F*** should I have to pay for your ILLEGALS? Canada gave my wife everything so why the hell should my wife owe the US a single damned CENT!!!?
@WhoaIt’sSteve
I for one cannot wait to close the door on my US citizenship. The ideals that used to make America great have left the building piece by piece since 9/11/2001. The loss of freedoms and liberties being one of the major reasons for me to leave. I will also add the state of irrational and systemic fear and paranoia that has gripped the countryside as another major reason why I left. Yet another reason why I left is because a lot of people there are to be quite frank, just too arrogant and incredibly stupid to be worth my time. The issue of taxes is amongst the least of my concerns. However, I will ask you this: Just because I had a joint account with my ‘foreign’ spouse, what the fuck is it the business of the Government of the United States of America to snoop into her banking information? Here’s another question: Why the fuck do I have to get my spouse an ITIN and declare all her income, as though she’s a citizen there, when in fact she has no status there, and she doesn’t want to live there, or else I lose all of my tax deductions to file separate? And why the fuck should I even have to file in the first goddamn place? I don’t live there anymore, don’t want to live there anymore, and I don’t benefit from anything that a homelander benefits from, so why the hell should I fund it? So we can bail out the bankers again when they screw up next time? Bullshit! How about for the ‘protection’ of the US government? What does that look like, anyway? A ‘Fuck you, not my problem!’ for a response, or a drone strike up my ass? I can’t even save up for my own retirement without your government thieving it all, or else threatening me with draconian penalties in case I make an error on paperwork that you homelander douchebags don’t even have to fill out!
But I’m supposed to be loyal to America after being subjected to this tyranny? What are you kidding me?
I want to be FREE! GET IT?!?
Just because you idiots made the choice to trade away your freedom for security, it doesn’t mean I’m coming along for the ride! That goes for me, and that goes for anyone else that has had it with with the police state paranoia of the post 9/11 United States to get the hell out of there for good!
If I am a traitor for leaving the US to seek the very freedom that the US delusionally brags about to the rest of the world, then so be it! I am that traitor that you despise so much, because I know I have the one cherished thing that you no longer do, but are too hopelessly enslaved to see it.
Here’s a little enlightenment re: Whoa’s “American Dream”. The term is a trick, they always use it.
http://undergrounddocumentaries.com/the-collapse-of-the-american-dream/
@The_Animal
Amen on that too, and I agree 100%
I’ve immigrated to Canada, and I’ve done it LEGALLY! Why should I give the USA a goddamn thing to support their illegals?!?
See I said you all would flip out. You get all upset when you hear something that doesn’t conform with your hate America circle jerk, you resort to all the worst tendencies. You perceive the US as an abusive boyfriend when the US is only interested finding tax cheats. You get mad at US foreign policy with disillusion when every nation’s foreign policy is crafted the exact same way, we’re just more in the spotlight and under scrutiny. Nothing I said was personal or an attack but anything that isn’t an absolute hate fest for the US you all perceive to be character assault.
Steve, people are choosing family over money. And I think you are misunderstanding where money comes in. It’s our foreign spouses money that is essentially being targeted by the US govt, which has no legal right to do so. And it is money being legally saved for retirement that is being disingenuous targeted by the USG as a way to cover US debt.
Most of the ppl here have long ago become citizens of other countries. Some are technically not even USC’s anymore due to the law at the time the repatriated. Others are duals from birth or childhood who have nothing to do with the US aside from maybe vacationing there or visiting extended family now and again. Some duals have never been the US and never will go there.
I don’t know how it props up the idea that America is awesome and exceptional for it to act like the former Soviet Union and ban for life all those who decide to build lives in other countries. It’s hardly good for the American image to deny aging Americans the care and comfort of their grown children in their last months or weeks and keeping people from attending funerals or other extended family events as a punishment for emigrating is more in keeping with dictatorships than democracies.
While there are probably people here and there who are only interested in saving money, most ppl who give up citizenship simply come to the realization that the US is no longer home and that they can’t adequately serve two masters (and make no mistake, the USA believes that anyone who possesses citizenship owes their allegiance first and foremost to the USA, they only pay lip service to the idea of dual citizenship because they don’t recognize any other citizenship as being primary but their own.)
But, to those who are talking about “paying for illegals”, there is so little illegal immigration going on down there since 2008 that this is not something to cite as a reason for giving up citizenship. And really, any money being spent on those who are still there is more likely being generated at a state level.
@WhoaIt’sSteve…
Circle jerk? Your seeming inability to understand any other perspective than your own is self masturbation. I just will take it that you are young, inexperienced of the world, and your brain has not yet developed empathy, to see the world from another’s eyes, or even see what is actually happening in America.
If America were only interested in finding Tax Cheats, as you say, then focus on Homeland Tax Cheats, and not try to extract a 5% penalty on highest aggregate account balance (while calling it an entitlement) of the most innocent of the innocent as provided for in the current IRS OVDP program FAQ number 52.2
Here is the exact example quote from that FAQ
Those who qualify for a reduced 5 percent offshore penalty.
Now tell me with a straight face, how that is “only interested in finding Tax cheats? You can’t, and so I rest my case! If you were only looking for tax cheats, you wouldn’t be trying to extract penalty revenue out of people who didn’t even know they were Americans, and when they found out, they didn’t immediately go to IRS.gov, to see what their tribute is supposed to be back to a homeland they NEVER lived in!!!
Bottomline, You don’t have an answer, as it goes against your exceptionalism view of what you want to believe about how the IRS operates. Sorry, but my poor young friend, you’re “tax cheat” narrative is absolutely wrong.
@All My advice is: ‘Don’t feed the troll’.
@JustMe
You are being too kind in your assessment of Steve when you assume he must be young.
@a
I have no desire at all to fund, or otherwise support the dysfunctionality of the US government. Period. That includes any and all forms of it therein.
To me, it already is an alien government that I need to protect my wife from, and by that extension, to protect myself from as well. What did I do to deserve this other than to be with my family, to seek liberty, and to pursue my own happiness? Is my life really even mine if I can’t do any of these things?
In case anyone is wondering where the Archive is now it’s in a pull down menu. You have to click on the button on the right side of the wide grey bar below “The Isaac Brock Society” at the top of the home page.
@Just Me
What of the roughly 50% of the homelanders there that don’t pay shit in tax and yet still bitch about taxes? I’m aleady paying more than them to Canada as it is, but yet I’m a tax cheater? Far as I’m concerned, they’re all a bunch of freeloaders!
@JustMe Thanks for the reference to the current IRS OVDP program FAQ number 52.2. Unfortunately, I fit the description of the poor US person in the example, almost to a ‘t’. I just read the text to my husband, who for the most part, thinks I am exaggerating the extent and intent of FATCA and the series of OVDPs. Rarely do I ever mention US or FATCA to him for fear of starting an argument, but I couldn’t resist after I read that FAQ.
I think hubby’s starting to get it! Who cares if WhoaIt’sSteve The “Homelander” ever does?
@Em
Thanks. That is good to know.
I would also add that this website looks quite nice both on a computer, and on an Android smartphone as well.
@ mjh
Well things can change quickly here or someone is messing with my mind because now that grey bar is just as it was before …. ?????
@Em
Good question. I’ve noticed that grey bar for some time now, but I’ve never really played with it too much.
Okay, feeling very stupid now. 🙁 The grey bar with the Archive changes according to how wide you make the window.
@Em
Interesting, isn’t it? On my phone, it’s a simple grey bar with a button on its right side. But on my desktop, all the options are laid out on the grey bar.
I don’t know. At least I thought it was interesting. I know I’m certainly not a web page designer. ;^)
@WhoaIt’sSteve
The sad irony of it all is that I didn’t even attack you. I only asked if you were kidding me. That and if you want to look at me as some sort of traitor, that you can basically look at me however you want. I really could care less.
However, I will tell it to you straight out that once people start being persecuted for wanting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, by a government and society that claims to be all about life liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, then it is already self evident to me that it is not I that has betrayed these values in the least bit. Instead, I should be blaming the homelanders. But for me to apply blame, I must first have to care enough about the country to try and fix it. I no longer do, and I haven’t really cared for the past few years now. I know the system there is hopelessly corrupt and unsalvageable, and I know that no one over there cares one iota to fix it. It is what it is, I’ve since accepted it, and I’ve moved on.
And frankly sir, you don’t have a clue as to how other countries formulate their own foreign policies. I will give you a hint, though. Most of them don’t have any desire to stick their noses in other nation’s businesses, and then act as though it’s their God given right.
Mhj, just saying. The states take most of the financial heat for illegals so that tax burden is on residents. And everyone down there pays taxes whether it is municipal or state or federally via payroll taxes. I am not sure how the meme about the 47% got started but like any other country, the US manages to wring dollars out of everyone, one way or another.
What they do with the money is beside the point. The point is that there is no justification for taxing non residents or their foreign spouses. And that dual citizenship is basically unworkable when both lay equal claim on loyalty and insisting on financial contributions via incompatible tax rules.
@WhiteKat
I gathered he was fairly young from previous engagements. I don’t think he is an internet troll, in the traditional sense, just not very experienced of the world and different views outside those hallowed shores where they are now stopping and doing citizenship checks. So much for liberty and democracy, eh?
http://thefranco-americanflophouse.blogspot.co.nz/2013/03/checkpoints-usa.html
@Just Me — and Victoria,
Thanks for the link to Victoria’s latest. The video was very interesting and brought back to me those feelings I had (in my naive intimidateable days) when told at the border that the next time I entered the US, it was to be with a US passport.
Great post by Victoria. Thanks for the link.
Worth reading this and other posts on the ACLU blog http://www.aclu.org/blog/tag/checkpoint-society
http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty/creeping-private-sector-checkpoint-society-and-small-step-protect-your
Wondering whether the new Target stores in Canada will try similar tactics in data-mining? http://www.aclu.org/blog/technology-and-liberty/creeping-private-sector-checkpoint-society-and-small-step-protect-your (In some provinces, the sale of alcohol would not be allowed in private outlets, but, the blog post makes clear that the scanning and collection of ID from customers extended to purchases other than alcohol). This goes far beyond the privacy abuses perpetuated by at least one branch of a large video rental chain in Ontario (now bankrupt?) who started routinely photographing customers and keeping the photos on file along with ID info they’d collected for every account opened – ostensibly to prevent unauthorized rentals. I was shocked when the teenage clerk demanded that I allow him to take my picture for their files – which they said was a new policy for all accounts – even existing ones. I told him that I was certain that this was against the law, and that the Privacy Commissioner http://www.ipc.on.ca/english/Home-Page/ would be very interested in this. I refused to have my photo taken and stored. But, what happened to the information collected from all those others who agreed? Where are the id and photo files now that the chain has gone bust?
Canadians should not be smug and complacent. Canada and other countries often import ideas from the US. The Harper government is implementing shared border security controls with the US. http://pm.gc.ca/eng/media.asp?id=5199
Will Canada decide to implement similar perimeter zone id checks as part of the ‘greater integration’ with the US?
http://canadians.org/blog/?p=19579#more-19579
http://www.nacla.org/blog/2013/2/13/living-constitution-free-zone “…….the CBP’s Office of Air and Marine—essentially Homeland Security’s air force and navy—has established eight U.S. bases along the border from Plattsburgh, New York, to Bellingham, Washington. While such bases are commonplace on the southern border, they are new on the Canadian frontier. In addition, new state-of-the art Border Patrol stations are popping up in places like Pembina, North Dakota (at the cost of $13 million), International Falls, Minnesota ($6.8 million), and other places. This advance of the homeland security state in the north, funded and supported by Congress, seems both uncontroversial and unstoppable.
Don’t think that the eternal bolstering of “border security” is just a matter of fortifying the boundary line, either. Last November, the CBP ordered an additional 14 unmanned aerial vehicles. (They are, however, still waiting for Congress to appropriate the funding for this five-year plan.) With this doubling of its fleet, there will undoubtedly be more surveillance drones flying over major U.S. urban areas like Detroit, Buffalo, Syracuse, Bangor, and Seattle, places the ACLU has classified as in a “Constitution-free zone.”
That zone — up to 100 miles from any external U.S. border — is the area that the Supreme Court has deemed a “reasonable distance” in which to engage in border security operations, including warrantless searches. As in the Southwest, expect more interior checkpoints where federal agents will ask people about their citizenship, as they did toVermont Senator Patrick Leahy in 2008. In the zone, you have the developing blueprint for a country not only in perpetual lockdown, but also under increasing surveillance. According to the ACLU, if you were to include the southern border, the northern border, and coastal areas in this zone, it would contain 200 million people, a potential “border” jurisdiction encompassing two-thirds of the U.S. population.”
Apparently this shared border initiative is also a big business opportunity:
See: http://www.beyond-border.com/index.php
“Why Exhibit?
Companies offering solutions for border enforcement, surveillance and identification, biometrics and credentialing, communications, data sharing, radiation detection, and more, have the opportunity to become part of the solution. US/Canada Border Conference brings together high-level decision-makers from both countries, discussing the most pressing topics with the companies offering the latest most innovative solutions.
US/Canada Border Conference is the only major Conference and Expo fully addressing the “Beyond the Border” Declaration between the US and Canada aimed at improving economic competitiveness while advancing border security between the two countries. Tap into billions of dollars being invested by the US and Canadian governments for equipment, products and services over the next several years!”
Canadians need to ‘stand on guard for thee’ – there is a danger that Canadian citizens and permanent residents will wake up to find that the US has annexed our country – with the willing collusion of our federal government. Expatriation is not freedom from unwanted US control if Canada gives over civil liberties on several fronts, from FATCA, to drones to internal travel controls.
@a
You know what? I am not really sure, either. It was probably based in some sort of bullshit political spin doctoring just like everything else that comes from the US government in one form or another. Even now it’s still hard to sort out what is real from what is fake.
But we certainly know that the US doesn’t need justification for citizenship based taxation and the taxing of foreign spouses, because it’s tough shit on us if we don’t like it as far as they’re concerned. The states and local residents will have to play along because what else are they going to do? Threaten to secede?
But of course, it is their issue if they want to be stupid with their money. I just fail to see why it should be my problem, or anyone else residing outside the USA’s problem.
@Just Me
Unnerving to see my former state of residence to be within the ‘constitution free zone’, but I cannot be all that shocked, really. Isn’t the constitution just a goddamn piece of paper over there, anyway? What else am I to conclude after all the two bit despots and the petty dictators over there have since taken their turns at wiping their asses with it? It might be amusing if the Tea Party knuckleheads (or any other knucklehead over there) that constantly bleet about the Second Amendment being a check against tyranny actually put their money where their mouth is, and put that myth to the test. I personally think they’re full of hot air just like all the other blowhards.
“What of the roughly 50% of the homelanders there that don’t pay shit in tax and yet still bitch about taxes?”
I have run across this type of statement before but perhaps looking at the wealth distribution in the USA will shed some light as to why this is so (see video). The great “untaxed” as a whole may look like a viable source of tax revenue but frankly some of the 50% haven’t got enough wealth to keep themselves viable, let alone pay taxes. Now there are also many wealthy among that 50% who can avoid taxes on technicalities and manage to get favourable tax legislation passed. I’ve got no sympathy for them. Somehow it’s always the middle class that takes the biggest hit — kind of like someone out there doesn’t want there to be a middle class anymore.