FATCA Fact Finding Forum: JUST SAY NO
Thanks to the Progressive Canadian Party for hosting the event and to Deckard1138 for doing a superb job of recording and uploading the proceedings.
Here are each of the videos and their transcripts (if available):
FATCA Forum – Part 1 of 9 – Opening Remarks by The Honourable Sinclair Stevens (transcript)
FATCA Forum – Part 2 of 9 – John Richardson Introduces the Forum (transcript)
FATCA Forum – Part 3 of 9 – CCLA’s Abby Deshman on FATCA Privacy Rights Issues (transcript)
FATCA Forum – Part 4 of 9 – John Richardson presents FATCA Principles video
FATCA Forum – Part 5 of 9 – Allison Christians on FATCA and International Tax Law (transcript)
FATCA Forum – Part 6 of 9 – Dorian Baxter on Canadian Government Accountability
FATCA Forum – Part 7 of 9 – James Jatras on How FATCA Can Be Defeated (transcript)
FATCA Forum – Part 8 of 9 – Peter Dunn on the Human Consequences of FATCA (transcript)
FATCA Forum – Part 9 of 9 – Final Comments and Closing
I guess my real point is that we base our belief in what the IRS will do on what we know right now. We only guess at the future. Only a few years ago we would never have thought something like FATCA could ever happen. Good points by bubblebustin and NorthernShrike about whistle-blowing and pension plans. This is one enormous Pandora’s box that has been opened and I see venomous snakes slithering out all over the place … and there are more inside waiting to emerge.
@Em:
“At one point in the forum someone asked what happens when a bank closes
your account. Prof. Christians guessed that the bank would give you a
certified cheque. I was hoping they would explore that further because
if one bank closes your account because you are a rascal recalcitrant
then where would you take the cheque?”
On US Thanksgiving Day, UBS sent a letter to its Switzerland-resident US Person customers requesting that they sign a W-9 and a statement renouncing their rights under Swiss bank customer privacy law. The letter states that if this must be done by March 31, 2013. If the customer does not wish to sign, s/he must inform the bank where the funds are to be transferred. Please see the fourth paragraph from bottom on the attached UBS letter (in French) posted on the Genevalunch.com on-line newspaper website:
http://genevalunch.com/files/2012/11/form_letter_ubs_uscitizens_211112-copy1.jpg
Here’s the corresponding article (English):
http://genevalunch.com/blog/2012/11/23/ubs-asks-us-persons-in-switzerland-to-renounce-swiss-data-protection/
I understand KalC’s frustration, although I disagree with some of his (her?) opinions regarding the presenters. As I watched the videos, although I was impressed with most of the presenters and their messages, I had the overwhelming feeling, mostly due to the sparse audience, that hardly anyone cares. Of course the forum was held 10 days before Christmas, so that definitely contributed to lack of attendance.
I think that if and when Canada signs an IGA, and FFI’s start inquiring into the accounts of their clients, that is when an attempt at at a forum on FATCA would attract way more people than would ever fit in the small room where this first forum was held. This is just the start of the backlash. Hardly anyone knows about it. The shit has yet to hit the fan.
Of course, the whole idea is to STOP FATCA before Canada signs an IGA, thus KalC’s frustration is totally understandable. At least its a great start, especially since its on You-tube We should all be sending links to the forum to as many people as possible. Listening to speakers versus reading about FATCA, portrays a much stronger message than printed words ever can.
It’s not over, even if the fat lady sings.
The fusion of the tracking of money and the suppression of dissent means
that a huge area of vulnerability in civil society – people’s income
streams and financial records – is now firmly in the hands of the banks,
which are, in turn, now in the business of tracking your dissent.
Revealed: how the FBI coordinated the crackdown on Occupy
Regarding what to do if you are deemed ‘recalcitrant’ and your bank closes your account, and cuts you a cheque, I think it would be wise if ‘US persons’ make a New Year’s resolution to focus on nurturing and cultivating close relations with our significant other, siblings, children, etc, because we are likely going to need them in ways we never before would have dreamed of. Put the ‘cheque’ in your spouse’s account, or your child’s account, get them to set up a chequing account in their name and give you the debit card, etc. Yeah, it will suck having to give up our financial autonomy, but we may not have a lot of choices. The family that banks together, stays together.
@all
I agree with the suggestion (I’m sorry I can’t recall who exactly said it) that there should be an edited version. I wish I had the skill, I would volunteer.
@WhiteKat
Rather than conspiring with loved ones, the carrot for me is the ability to renounce and never have to worry again (fingers crossed). Of course, either choice comes at a cost. Having no bank account/investments already denies you what US tax compliance does, the ability to benefit from RRSP’s, TSFA’s, etc. What else will you deny yourself in your effort to avoid denying yourself?
@ Innocente
That is a very disturbing article but then so far the Swiss have given up more than any other country and we expected that. I may have this wrong but I think that besides total capitulation to FATCA regulations, the US is basically giving the IGA countries (the coalition of the unwilling) the choice of 2 or 3 plans. So any country stupid enough to agree to an IGA can go through Door 1, Door 2 or Door 3 and all doors lead to hell for US persons plus the US can/will change/escalate the conditions later.
So what do we want? We want Canada to say NO to FATCA and NO to an IGA plus enact strict legislation preventing our banks from doing an end-run on their clients by selling them out to the IRS. Yes, I know they have that 30% sword hanging over their heads but Canada would have to back up its position by threatening to turn off the resource tap to the US or use whatever other ammo it might have to push the sword away. Remember, that 30% threat is a sanction and a sanction is in essence a declaration of war.
Do I think the Harper regime has the inclination or the will to do what is right for a small minority of its residents? No, but I still think we are at the stage where we cannot accept that FATCA is a done deal and proceed with our protest against it and do whatever we can to stop Flaherty from shoving us through an IGA door.
*To respond to KalC. Back in 2010 and 2011 who would have thought that a former premier of British Columbia who left office under highly dubious circumstances 20 years ago to the point of possibly being in jeopardy of going to jail(and in the process destroying the BC Social Credit Party) and who had done little in the meantime other than be associated with various fringe parties like Reform BC and BC First would come back into public life sucessfully leading an effort to reverse the harmonization of the provincial sales tax with the GST(HST) and to essentially drive three term BC Premier Gordon Campbell from office and given the current polls in BC basically wreck the BC Liberal Party.
I say this(albeit as someone who has never lived in BC) who never liked Bill Vander Zalm’s policies in general as premier or currently and who actually as a matter of policy supports the harmonization of the PST and GST that I have enourmous respect for the “grassroots” polical instincts of Vander Zalm and for his ability to fight sucessfully what most would consider an unwinable political fight. In fact if I was doing a FATCA forum out in Vancounver Vander Zalm and the people he was associated with like Chris Delaney and Bill Tieleman are exactly the type of people I would want leading an anti FATCA grassroots rebellion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Vander_Zalm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Tieleman
@Em
Could Switzerland be an example (warning) of what could happen to Canada if we don’t play ball?
@ bubblebustin
Yes, but remember this little song parody? They’d like to teach us to obey … But we want none of that! If Canada wasn’t always burning its bridges to some countries (we attack whatever the USA attacks) and wasn’t presenting itself to others as the smug little financial master that it really is not (see link below), then we might have counted on the backing of much of the world when the big bully next door starts pounding on us. As it is, I don’t think we’d have many allies but it’s high time we fought for ourselves anyway.
http://www.economicreason.com/economiccrisisexplained/canadian-banking-system-exposed/
@bubblebustin,
I am sincerely happy for you that you can renounce(or have, I am not sure of your situation), but for those of us who are not tax compliant, IF FATCA comes to be, we may be forced to rely on the goodwill of family members. Of course it is not an ideal outcome, but it may become a reality for a lot of us, most of whom have not yet even heard of FATCA, nevermind the latest ‘streamlined disclosure program’. Desperation, begets desperate measures. We are not there yet, but most of us who are worrying about this, need some comfort to help us sleep at night in the worst of the worst case scenarios. I am suggesting that, in worst case, look to family for support, because the Canadian goverment cannot be relied upon. That does not mean we should give up, just that we should have back up plans.
@WhiteKat
My story is on the Brock home page, I would be honoured if you were interested in reading it. My husband and I are in OVDI, made a submission over a year ago and have not heard anything back other than from Treasury informing us that our PLR request has been denied and our RRSP’s would be dealt with in OVDI. So no, I’m not compliant and the future is uncertain. However, in the meantime we’ve been busy talking to TAS (tax advocate w IRS) and are cautiously optimistic that we will not be assessed penalties on our capital gains and FBAR under the Internal Revenue Manual. I’m sorry, have you talked to a tax professional? Perhaps your situation is not as desperate as you imagine.
@ WhiteKat
According to the FATCA regulations those “safe” family accounts you are talking about would have to have no connection whatsoever to you. Your family would almost have to take out cash and hand it to you. You could be involving them in something with consequences and frankly I’m not even sure what those might be. I do know that the USA can/will enlarge their dragnet to include not just “US person” minnows but perhaps anyone those minnows swim too close to.
*@Everyone,
Yes, I agree, it sucks to be us, but Canada has not yet signed an IGA, and if and when it does, we will deal with it then. I am the most paranoid person on the planet (ask my spouse), but not enough to come into compliance. One million people and their families will not just bend over, that is for sure. Relax people…did I just say that?…significant other would be proud.
*Well said WhiteKat. I’m proud of you.
We need people to say ‘ why should I cooperate?’
@bubblebuststin,
Thank you for your reply. I am sympathetic to your situation, and hope you soon hear positive news.
As for my situation, I have spoken with those who claim they are tax professionals, and legal professionals, and all have claimed they can help me get compliant and suggest I should then renounce. I call ‘bullshit’, although I came close to the siren song of ‘ we can help you, just get rid of your mutual funds, then renounce, etc’. This is nothing but a windfall for ‘tax professionals’ and ‘law professionals’ and we all know it, which is why I am saying, ‘take care of your family and friends because this is what is real, and this is our real, true hope’.
I am not saying give up the fight for human rights and justice, but we still have to live, and a fair resolution to this mess could take a long time. I don’t know about you, but my family is starting to get it, and I think will risk it for me. In the meantime, I will try to figure out how I can contribute to the cause, which ultimately is about human rights.
@WhiteKat
Power to you! Each of us will choose which hill we wish to die on, but hopefully through a cumulative effort we will cause a change that will benefit future generations. Maybe not, but I’m still compelled to try.
How do you feel about two classes of USP’s who are Canadian, those who fly under the radar able to function as regular Canadians purchasing RRSP’s, TSFA’s with impunity and those who are ‘out’ like me who cannot? One has to wonder where the Canadian government would stand on this issue.
@All. Be sure you read the new post by Tim here.
*@bubblebustin
My legal last name is ‘Power’, though I have none, and no desire to die on a hill all alone.
As for how I feel about ‘two classes of USP’s’, I think that sucks. I hope you do not get bitter against those who are not yet ‘out’, because someday we (they) will be. This whole mess is so frustrating Bubblebustin, and every individual situation is similar though different, but all are caught in the same mess, and fighting the same fight.
@WhiteKat
Well said. I too am not compliant and have spoken with so called tax professionals and have been quoted in excess of $20,000 to “get compliant”. I’ve no idea if I would owe anything as my affairs are complex and there are entities involved. They wouldn’t tell me what, if anything, I would owe before doing the majority of the work.
All my assets are post tax paid in a high tax OECD country. I am outraged at the possibility of spending this sort of sum and STILL would not have any guarantee that I would not be hit with massive penalties.
What a mess, and at this point I’ve no idea what course of action I will take. I recently discovered this site and would like to thank everyone involved here for fighting this tyranny.
Read “This is your family, this is FATCA… this is your family on FATCA” :
|With respect to the the attendance in the recent FATCA fact finding forum. I was actually not surprised at the lack of attendance.
I have come to realize that there are a number of individuals out there that do not want to deal with this, or refuse to believe it…hoping the Canadian Government will formulate a solution before the deadline of possible implementation.
I know of many persons with US indica that are not compliant with the US tax situation, are aware of FATCA and the IRS extraterritorial tax pressure, but have elected to not educate themselves on the details, or even attempt to pull there head out of the sand to protect themselves. (I find this t an interesting insight on human behaviour).
My sister is a good example of one that will not communicate with me on this matter, or take the time to at least review the 9 part video presentation as outlined on this thread.
The interest will of course be overwhelming when these people feel the fingers of a foreign government reach into there back pockets and bank statements….in fact I believe there will be a new reality show in the future called American IRS Pickers where two compliance officers drive up to Canada in a panel van to go through your accounts and levy penalty and fines for non-compliance!!
And….for the record…I found this FATCA presentation very informative and was very impressed with all the speakers.
Of the 30 or so US persons I have spoken to, zero are “compliant” and zero are taking action such as letters to Congresspersons or such. A couple might have filed an FBAR for the current year.
@mach73
Then there are those who believe they are being proactive by conspiring with other family members to hide assets in another family members name.
One of the biggest obstacles to compliance is the actual cost of the initial filing and legal advice, which by many estimates is $20K. Then there are the ongoing yearly filing fees. Many won’t go into debt to open a Pandora’s Box, and I don’t blame them. The US will never ever have respectable compliance rates as long as most ‘deemed taxpayers’ see is a stick. Minister Flaherty’s apparent glee over the latest announcement of ‘streamlined procedures’ was a huge disappointment to me, when anything short of an amnesty program resembling Canada’s should have been met with intense criticism. Message from the Canadian government to the IRS and Canadians: our well developed and fair policies don’t stand for squat when the US comes calling.