FATCA Fact Finding Forum: JUST SAY NO
Thanks to the Progressive Canadian Party for hosting the event and to Deckard1138 for doing a superb job of recording and uploading the proceedings.
Here are each of the videos and their transcripts (if available):
FATCA Forum – Part 1 of 9 – Opening Remarks by The Honourable Sinclair Stevens (transcript)
FATCA Forum – Part 2 of 9 – John Richardson Introduces the Forum (transcript)
FATCA Forum – Part 3 of 9 – CCLA’s Abby Deshman on FATCA Privacy Rights Issues (transcript)
FATCA Forum – Part 4 of 9 – John Richardson presents FATCA Principles video
FATCA Forum – Part 5 of 9 – Allison Christians on FATCA and International Tax Law (transcript)
FATCA Forum – Part 6 of 9 – Dorian Baxter on Canadian Government Accountability
FATCA Forum – Part 7 of 9 – James Jatras on How FATCA Can Be Defeated (transcript)
FATCA Forum – Part 8 of 9 – Peter Dunn on the Human Consequences of FATCA (transcript)
FATCA Forum – Part 9 of 9 – Final Comments and Closing
In transcribing Part 4, there was a question on the people that put out the banking videos.
Here is the web site: http://www.lessonslearned.co.uk/, which says
lessonslearned.co.uk = Enablers of Abuse and Repression
The Jamaica Gleaner: “In preparing for FATCA, American government relations specialist [James Jatras] tells Jamaican firms: Stop wasting your money!”
http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20121226/lead/lead1.html
One of the comments on the article reads:
“This law would not exist , if it was preconditioned upon the US shouldering the cost of it’s administration. Absent this condition , and any guarantee of reciprocity on the part of the US ; this is nothing but but political hegemony , and economic imperialism writ large. Furthermore it gives US financial institutions an unfair advantage , because their foreighn counterparts are saddled with costs that they do not have to bear.
If the foreighn governments were to demand reciprocity , the potential cost of compliance to the US institutions would be enormous , and the financial oligarchy which holds the US economy in it’s thrall would immidiately move to pose a raft of legal and constitutonal challenges to it. In either case nothing should be done untill , and unless these regulations are promulgated and issued by the administrative agency.” — prdomce
Go Jim, Go!
Here is the transcript of the Part 4 of 9 of the Toronto FATCA Fact Finding Forum, Jon Richardson Presents FATCA Principles Video, which Calgary411 has transcribed.
We now have Parts 1 and 4 up. When we’ve finished with all the parts, we’ll combine them into one complete transcript as well, but meanwhile we’ll post each part as it’s done.
Thanks,Calgary
John BrownDecember 28, 2012 at 4:34 am
iExpats.com: “Interview: James Jatras, Lawyer and Anti-FATCA Lobbyist”
A great interview with James Jatras.
http://www.iexpats.com/2012/12/interview-james-jatras-lawyer-and-anti-fatca-lobbyist/
Best quote:
“….expats will be damaged, and, indeed, already are being damaged, according to numerous news reports, is their increasingly leprous status in the eyes of FFIs….”
The US claims FATCA would raise under US$ one-billion a year (but ignoring huge hidden costs and ill will it raises due to unfair practices). If forces the million strong US-persons in Canada alone costs more than a US$ one-billion for just filing taxes each year (not including indirect costs, bad financial planning and mental suffering and consequences on health). I spend thousands just to show that I owe zero taxes and it is scary to spend that kind of money every year. It is preventing me for to do any financial planning, because it is very expensive for saving for retirement. The penalties are draconian, if my accountant or I make an innocent mistake. We are all better off paying US$1000/year tribute to the USA spend thousands to prove, we owe no taxes. I am signing tax return that I can’t understand and praying my CPA is not made any mistake. Eretrea’s 2% tax-tribute looking much simpler and fair compared to complex tax code and draconian penalties for innocent mistakes and cost of compliance, even when no tax is due.
@Bharat
You’re right, Eritrea’s treatment of its citizens living abroad in many ways is more humane than the US’s, with the exception of never allowing their citizens to renounce Eritrean citizenship. In this, the US is showing great humanity for allowing us to make a final departure after they have finished rendering us down.
I’ve only just finished all the videos and I see @Petros, that my pseudonym will go down in history (for good or for bad). I’ve got a little more wind in my sails knowing there are so many good minds on this, the well-founded arguments that with all justice will get our government’s ear . I would like to offer a huge THANK-YOU to the many who made this event and these videos possible…and to think people told me that I was wasting my vote on Elizabeth May.
Does anyone have the wording on the petition given to the Green Party representative at the forum?
@bubblebustin — I was told I was wasting my time to vote Progressive Canadian too but I kind of think I made a good choice even though their candidate lost. 😉 (And I didn’t know anything about FATCA at that time.)
As Nina Olson has stated probably more than once, tax compliance for outlanders is almost impossible due to the complexity of US tax code but now the homelanders are going to find it harder to find affordable help. Search — http://youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=bcOa4drpYtg — and preface it with — http://www. — of course. (I’m trying not to use up space here with an embedded video.)
I hope everyone who uses the mom and pop accounting firms can ascertain that their tax preparer who will prepare and submit their returns to the IRS will be absolutely up to date on their education and will stand by their work. I presume penalties for the homelanders, though not the same as for us, might be steep. It is an industry perpetuated by the complexity of the US Tax Code and IRS.
I sure learned the costs of not having it done properly in Canada — having to amend with 3520 and 3520A’s for foreign trusts.
@ calgary411
Things are much easier when you file in the USA as a resident (assuming no overseas accounts of course) and I expect a lot of those mom and pop ops used computer programs and charged a pretty low fee. It was a good deal for low end earners who might not have the confidence to do it themselves. Extreme complexity has been foisted mostly on outlanders. I still haven’t had the nerve to take a peek at a 3520 but I bet it ain’t pretty.
In the absence of any better place to put it, I want to pose a question. I have not yet made my way through all the presentations and discussions, but to my knowledge this has not been raised or discussed:
After a presumed FATCA implementation, and the IRS has collected data on “US persons” and their financial assets, what next? The IRS wants the information for a reason. I am assuming it is for assessing FBAR penalties. The Government of Canada has indicated that CRA will not collect these, but my guess is that the IRS would demand payment directly by the Canadian Participating Foreign Financial Institutions (PFFIs). Am I wrong?
*yes you are wrong. The IRS cannot collect from a bank for a presumed debt of a presumed US person. Let’s use some common sense here. The bank’s response would be ” get serious”
*Northern Strike
The IRS has tried this already back in the 1980s and failed. This is the Van deMark vs TD Bank case. I am not sure really what the IRS is thinking.
@Duke of Devon
What did the CBA get in their request for the IRS and Treasury to “get serious” about FATCA? A deaf ear, or worse, a positive response to the request. I hope you’re right, but the CBA has shown that to keep afloat, they’re ready to enter uncharted waters to satisfy the US’s demands.
I had read here on Brock somewhere that unlike FBAR, failure to file penalties for F8938 may be collectible by the CRA, but can’t find where I read this info. Can anyone explain or direct me to where it is explained?
@bubblebustin
I think the discussion evolving around the differences between Title 31 FBAR penalties (CRA will not collect) and Title 26 FATCA 8938 penalties (which they might) was on the Ask your question thread, and various other threads.
@Just me
Yikes, thanks but unless you’re sitting directly on it, it’s nearly impossible to find a needle in a haystack. Is there a special trick to searching each thread for a specific topic among gazillions of comments?
I must say I had my doubts but they were exceeded beyond belief. About 25 attendees. The leader of a defunct political party fighting 20 year old battles. A defrocked Anglican minister Elvis impersonator. (You can’t make this up.) A moderator for whom everything is fabulous and who can only yell. A full professor who gives a presentation unworthy of a first year student.
Each of us should take serious steps to protect herself or himself. The ship is sinking fast.
One angle for IRS enforcement seems quite clear, with substantial evidence from history and recent documentation: Anyone who cannot anticipate functioning into the future without ever entering US jurisdiction again may well face detention at the new Berlin wall. Ask yourself, realistically – can I eschew the US borders and US passport controls from now on? Will I never again engage in air travel that could possible be diverted by weather conditions or mechanical difficulties into a US landing? Would a medical condition never result in referral to the south? What ruinous risks am I prepared to take on? Especially as an inhabitant of Canada, that comprador compliant country of 4000×100 human-populated miles that is irrevocably cosied up along the northern border. A second and lesser angle: Can I extricate all assets from instruments and institutions that are not somehow subject to US tribute extraction? Start off by thinking about all of those Swiss banks taken out of the picture. Trickle right along the financial networks to your own personal risk assessment of the Bank of Nigeria.
The math indicates that about 95% of assessable US persons in Canada are not compliant, and most of those are hamstrung by costs and bureaucratic tortuosities, with little prospect of ever becoming compliant. Simple passage of time viciously erodes the carapace of “reasonable cause.” Perhaps the largest subset of that massive herd of free meat is yummy ostrich. Out on the horizon lies Head-Smashed-In-Ostrich-Jump. Two beacons of hope for all this meat on the run: the kindnesses of the IRS (Irrational Rogue Suckmachine) and the bold defenses of TNSF (Twit North Smug & Feeble).
Sauve qui peut!
@bubblebustin
Not easy to find old comments in distant threads. I often use the Archive to look through for the most likely posting, and then do the google search for key words sometimes brings in up. Anything to help my feeble memory, as with every comment that does get posted, can get lost if it isn’t a separate post.
@ KALc PC Party, (1) They were the only political party that thought this FATCA thing was worth having a Fact Finding Forum. They called the meeting. No other party, except the Green Party, sent a representative. (2) Defrocked Anglican Priest? The anglican church has a strange idea of who should be defrocked. Sing an Elvis song at wedding reception and you get defrocked for doing something that is “poor taste”.
The law professor gave a very suitable presentation for the subject. Your criticism is insulting without being substantive. The moderator did a good job, and I am personally grateful for his hard work and contributions.
I see you chose not to insult Jatras, Deshman or myself. I can’t wait.
But in the end, you are right that people must do what they can to protect themselves. The best thing is relinquishment of US citizenship. But the Fact Finding Forum has done one thing–it shows to the world in advance of FATCA implementation in Canada that it is: (1) a violation of PIPEDA (Deshman); (2) a violation of charter rights and NAFTA (Christians, Stevens); (3) it can be stopped (Jatras); (4) it is already doing damage to real people on the ground in Canada (Dunn)
*Jatras, you and particularly Deshman gave reasonable presentations.
@ NorthernShrike
I am probably the least likely to be able to answer your question but here is part of what I submitted to the Finance Dept.
Why would Canada agree to aid and abet the IRS by allowing detailed account information to be collected and remitted when this information is not needed to determine taxes due? It makes me wonder if the USA is contemplating some form of wealth tax which could send millions more dollars flying into its coffers which rightfully belong in Canada where the wealth was earned and accumulated.
But my guess at a wealth tax may be way off base and maybe they simply think that eventually the Canadian gov’t will allow the IRS to collect their fiendishly high form penalties directly from Canadian banks. We can only look at what they allow us to see at this moment and we cannot possibly know what it is they have planned for the future.
At one point in the forum someone asked what happens when a bank closes your account. Prof. Christians guessed that the bank would give you a certified cheque. I was hoping they would explore that further because if one bank closes your account because you are a rascal recalcitrant then where would you take the cheque? No other bank would take you on at that point. So, what if you asked for cash? I once wanted to take out $5000 dollars in cash from the TD bank (no longer our bank) and they would only give me $2500 that day and made me come back the next day for the other $2500. What if the sum was $250,000? That would be 100 trips to the bank! And now here’s a thought. What if thousands of us choose to be recalcitrant and demand cash for our closed accounts? Wouldn’t that be called a run on the banks? Wouldn’t that be a wicked thing for rascal recalcitrants to do?
@Em
“What if thousands of us choose to be recalcitrant and demand cash for our closed accounts? Wouldn’t that be called a run on the banks? Wouldn’t that be a wicked thing for rascal recalcitrants to do?”
It’s as equally tempting to imagine the banks turning whistle-blowers with such a wealth of information about their US persons, where they live and their financial worth. Deja vu?
@Em
Thank you for your points. I think it is highly unlikely that the US would seek to impose a wealth tax, not least because it would require bipartisan support, which won’t be forthcoming.
The business of closing accounts…who knows. The easiest for them would be to cut a cheque. Then what do you do with it?
I don’t think there will be enough money involved to cause a run on the banks, even if all affected persons behaved in the same way, which is unlikely.
Allow me to raise a bit of a side issue here. Most of the talk is of banks, which are federally regulated. However, there is significant money in pensions and in investment accounts (stocks, etc.), which are provincially regulated. “Closing” a pension account is highly dubious for various legal reasons. Investment accounts are another matter. They can usually be closed be either party on 30 days notice.