@mopsicktaxlaw prognostications on plight of #americansabroad #FBAR #FATCA mopsicktaxlaw.blogspot.com/2012/12/offsho… – If he is right renounce US citizenship!
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) December 12, 2012
The above tweet links to a very blog post. As is usually the case, the comments are far more interesting. What follows is Mr. Mopsick’s collection of thoughts:
Here are some miscellaneous thoughts, some of which may contradict the others in response to the most recent comments posted on my blog:
1. No one at the IRS except Nina Olson is paying any attention at all to the tax plight of Americans abroad. Expect more of the same for the year ahead.
2. The IRS is scrambling as fast as its muscle bound bureaucratic hide can, to implement a very, very tough law (FATCA and FBAR enforcement) while at the same time, it looks like negative PR fallout is of no real concern right now to the people at the top of the organization.
3. Many cross border tax lawyers and accountants have little experience with IRS enforcement and are either trying to panic people because of their own greed and self-interest or by inadvertence.
4. Some people are neglecting to use common sense when approaching their imagined impending doom at the hands of the IRS. While each person’s facts are unique, If you haven’t had any connection to the IRS or U.S. source income since the 1960’s you can probably rest easy. People’s fear of government is not always rational but it makes for great discussion and debate.
5. There is no one in Washington looking out for tax justice for Canadians. If you want something to happen here you must look to your own elected Canadian officials to do the jobs your votes gave them.
6. The Canadian Civil Liberties Union is a great organization and the referenced article has reminded me to renew my ACLU membership as soon as possible.
7. I agree that a lot of Canadian Grannies are worried but its not because the IRS has armed special agents surrounding their nursing homes. There are no cases out there in which the IRS is targeting people just to prove how stupid and heavy handed they can be. If there were you are correct. I may not know about them but you would, because they would be the poster children of the anti-FATCA movement. Where are the actual cases and controversies involving IRS over reaching?
8. FATCA may be only a symptom of a much broader phenomenon: the 21st Century may mark the beginning of multiple virtual international data bases, banking being only one of them. History will tell.
I agree with him. It has been a year. There has been NO indication of an attempt by the IRS to allow U.S. persons abroad to come into compliance (without the threat of penalties).
@ Renounce
Thank you for posting this. With respect to points 4 and 7, Mr. Mopsick may well be right, but what is unsaid is that fear is less the work of over-active imagination than deliberate policy of the IRS to create panic and terror in order to drive folks “voluntarily” into the arms of the Service.
Point 8 is a very interesting one and gives pause for thought; it would be consistent with the general growth of a surveillance society.
One of my principal concerns is my claim that I am not a US citizen, and it is not the unilateral right of the US government to claim me. The right to leave which I assert is consistent with the direction of post-WW2 human rights conventions. The US would not tolerate Iran or any other country attempting to reach into the US to make claims upon their former citizens. However, the issue of citizenship is of course outside the domain of Mr. Mopsick and he quite rightly does not raise it.
*@Mr. Mopsick: Thank you for your to-the-point comments.
Your opinion would be appreciated on this: There is reason to wonder if he that the two adult children of President Morosi, who are US citzens by virtue of having been born in the US when the Egyptian president was living and working here as a university professor, may not be compliant with their US tax obligations. Without launching a fishing expedition, is there any way to somehow encourage the IRSn to do what is necessary to insure that they are in compliance with their USn tax obligations? From published information his US citizen daughter lives in Egypt and his son in Saudi Arabia.
As far as I know there are no provisions for special IRS treatment of US citizen taxpayers who live abroad because they are relatives of foreign governmentt officials or heads of state.
@Roger
You note that:
“As far as I know there are no provisions for special IRS treatment of US citizen taxpayers who live abroad because they are relatives of foreign governmentt officials or heads of state.”
You are correct. The whole problem is that the IRS (example OVDI) makes up the rules as it goes along. It is much better for the IRS to simply enlist the help of U.S. citizen politicians in other countries – in return for turning a blind eye.
Points 1-8, an interesting mixture of efforts to incite and allay fear.
I find Mr. Mopsick’s perspectives to be very interesting – remember these are the thoughts of a “Homelander”.
Let’s hope that the congressmen Shadow Raider contacted will make an impact. This seems like one of the best hope of change so far.
I have a question: Nina Olson denounced OVDP in her report to congress. But does congress actually have a say on how the IRS is administering their programs? Congress can modify the law if they wanted regarding the FBAR, reporting threshold and associated fines, but can they actually do something about the IRS OVDP? Can they actually pass law to force the IRS for example to implement Nina’s recommendation? Or is it in the sole power of the IRS commissioner?
May I just point out that not all “Canadian Grannies” are in nursing homes, Mr. Mopsick!!!!!!
Damn right, Calgary!
In fact, Mr. Mopsick is pretty condescending when he refers to “Canadian Grannies”.
The most important point I think he makes is this for Canadians (and others for their particular country):
@renounceuscitizenship
I’m glad you brought that up. The ingredient missing in any homelander being able to have empathy for their fellow citizen living outside the US is fear. The actions of the US government are causing one group of citizenry to live in fear because of their geographic location, whereas another group enjoys all the freedom and benefits of that citizenship in the homeland. Citizenship based taxation enforced by FATCA will see the end of American global migration. Ours is the last generation of expats to ever believe (erroneously) that we were free to live where we want to on this great wide earth.
@Bubblebustin
Make no mistake about “Homelanders” have no empathy. I have a few thoughts on this:
1. Obviously one can only have empathy if one can imagine the effect, which they can’t (do you have empathy for North Koreans)?
2. Homelanders for the most part really do believe that U.S. citizens abroad are “tax cheats”. It’s partly the language used: U.S. citizens “Abroad”. The word “Abroad” suggests a privileged life style. Add that to: “U.S. Citizens” and you have an image (from the perspective of Homelanders) of:
Somebody who is not more deserving than I am but somehow gets to live “abroad”. The language is tailor made to generate envy and resentment.
On the issue of envy and resentment: Democracy in the U.S. is now a process that is used to get somebody else to pay your bills.
The whole Obama narrative and campaign can be reduced to one simple message. Here it is:
“Vote for Barack Obama and he will get somebody else to pay your bills.”
In this case it is “U.S. citizens” (the person who is just like me) “Abroad” (but somehow gets to live a privileged life). Yes, it is right, just and equitable that U.S. citizens abroad should pay for homelanders. The US is run by “envy specialists”.
Now my final point: Do not under any circumstances use a U.S. based cross-border professional for compliance and tax concerns. There are two reasons:
First, they really do in their heart believe that either you are a tax cheat or that you should be supporting the homeland; and
Second, Circular 230 means they work for the IRS anyway.
As Orwell noted in 1984, the language used defines the way people think. Therefore, it is time to stop referring to people like us as:
“U.S. citizens abroad.”
Can you suggest a name change?
On the off chance that any anybody from American Citizens Abroad is reading this, you might consider a name change too.
Finally, you are right. Homelanders can’t even imagine the “health destroying” fear that U.S. citizens abroad live under. I believe that the way that the U.S. applies citizenship-based taxation is a human rights issue! How can it not be, when a whole group of people live in “terror” all day every day? People are renouncing because it is the only way they can defend themselves.
The concept of “U.S. citizens abroad” is becoming extinct.
@renounce, re; “Do not under any circumstances use a U.S. based cross-border
professional for compliance and tax concerns. There are two reasons:
……”Second, Circular 230 means they work for the IRS anyway.”
Have wondered what is the effect, if any, of having client personal tax records kept across the border in a US office, vs. in Canada. And, whether Circular 230 has constrained the ability of practitioners to effectively communicate advice, or even usefully share information with a client in ways that those in other areas of practice may not face. Does fear of Circular 230 make it less possible to articulate the true underlying ‘whys’ of particular advice to clients, or give meaningful answers – for fear of being accused of helping someone to avoid or minimize penalties? And if so, then clients could be paying for assistance – only to find that their advisor is effectively shackled by 230?
@renounceuscitizenship
thank you for your thoughts.
Regardless of whether a US based cross-border tax specialist has my best interests in mind or not, is more or less competent than another, I will NEVER use one, as the thought of sending my Canadian earned after tax dollars to the US to do my taxes is repugnant to me.
I suppose the majority of homelander’s attitude can be summed up as “why do these tax cheats get to live on yachts while I’m forced to eat this sh*t sandwich at home”.
How about we call ourselves US outlanders? It’s a great compliment to homelander. From Merriam-Webster, an outlander is “a person who belongs to another region, culture, or group : foreigner, stranger ·”
@bubblebustin, renounce.
Outlander, Outlander, American Outlanders. Sounds good / defines well and blends in with what the “homelanders” think of us traitors — foreigners, strangers and all those words connotate. We do belong to another region, culture, group, COUNTRY.
Badger
Here are some posts I have written that in one way or another reference Circular 230.
http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/?s=OVDI+Circular+230
In particular this one where:
http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2012/01/17/the-irs-is-the-biggest-obstacle-to-tax-compliane-for-u-s-citizens-living-outside-the-united-states/#more-1045
one lawyer is quoted as saying:
“We as practitioners also were aware of the drumbeat from the IRS against quiet disclosures or any kind of compliance short of participation in the [OVDP],” he said. “There was some genuine concern among practitioners that advising a client not to participate might be seen by the IRS as a Circular 230 violation — or worse, an obstruction of justice.”)
Amazing how many people were talked into OVDI?
@Badger- an even more sinister FATCA related issue is that the various FATCA coordinators that the financial industry will be employing are going to have EIN’s given to them by the U.S. This will make them de fatco U.S. persons even though they are NOT citizens or green card holders.
Calgary 411 & bubblebustin & renounce –
Nothing new under the sun. Certainly not outlander. Your terminological musingfest is partial amnesiac replay of Whatchamacallit. I still haven’t come across anything better than extraterritorial.
@usxcanada
Gosh you have fun with words! They always amuse me! Thnx
Regarding Mopsick’s number 8
Absolutely right. With accelerating BIG DATA evolution, GATCA is coming, as sure as the tide rolls into my NZ bay. Don’t like it, but it is a force of nature. We better learn to swim with the tide, as seawalls are just going to be breached.
@usxcanada,
LOL. Or, ET’s.
@usxcanada
I must have missed that one as it was in my early days here, thanks for the link.
In light of your CLN, should you change your handle to canada-us?
@recalcitrant,
What a trap for them. I wonder if they KNOW that??
(Speaking of which, Roy Berg advises that his “US Tax Issues for US Persons Working in Canada” will be camera-ready next week so we’ll be able to link it to the post regarding US workers coming to Canada. That might be good information for FATCA Coordinators employed by the financial industry, wherever they may be employed.)
Why not “outlanders”. Folks who live in the US are “in country” or “inlanders” (or even “islanders” b/c they seem isolated from the world at large most of the time. We, who live out of the country, would therefore be “outlanders”, or possibly “escapees” or “fugitives”, but the latter makes our living elsewhere sound illegal, which, for the time being, it isn’t.
I agree with #3. The fear factor is helping those who would profiteer and the USG, who – as #7 points out – isn’t interested in deliberately creating martyrs for the media.
I also agree with #8. We live in an era of diminishing boundaries where personal privacy is concerned. We’ve give up so much of it willingly too, so why wouldn’t govts look to further their info gathering by coercing us to give up what little remains?
@Calgary411- they know or else will come to know because it is a condition of taking on the job.
Another irony in this whold affair is that the U.S, by forcing people to sign away their tax treaty rights, is knowingly putting itself in the position that has historically been occupied by all other totalitarian regimes in human history.
Its funny how rules and laws are so casually breached when it serves the U.S. government’s purpose. The concept of any individual autonomy doesn’t exist for the U.S. citizen. There are no inalienable rights. All of our rights are granted to us by the all encompassing U.S. state.
I really think that Japan and China (and some other European countries) really have the right idea: when you apply for citizenship, you relinquish or renounce the other. It’s already extremely difficult to serve 2 masters, especially if one is the US. I’m not just attacking the US; all countries are hungry for money nowadays. But the US is the only one (for now) that will confiscate your US assets when you don’t live there anymore. IMO, anyone that takes on multiple citizenships nowadays is aware of the risk, or should be.
What leaves me confused is that I will only be able to generate a very small amount of tax revenue for ANY government. But the US is collected a trillion times more in revenue with the mega-fines-penalities like with Standard Chartered or HSBC. Why they would want to harass small-fry expats, I have no idea. Seems more like punishment to me.
@recalcitrant,
And, it’s sad commentary that Canada even consider being party to letting the US force Canada’s Canadian-US citizens to sign away their privacy rights.