There have been tremors and blips for years, from Texas to Alaska and all the way back to Vermont we have heard of possible seccession movements building up in the US. In the aftermath of the US election some 20 different states’ residents have even submitted official petitions to the White House with this very goal in mind, and the Texas petition has garnered enough signatures that the White House must officially respond to it.
US election: Unhappy Americans ask to secede from US
Whether or not this will come to anything is anyone’s guess. Coming from the EU, where seccession is a real issue (especially in Flanders, Scotland, Catalonia and now even Venice), I find it difficult to compare public mood in the US to that in Europe – I personally believe that there will be at least one new European state within the next five years.
It is of course interesting to note that whilst some states are interested in leaving the US that Puerto Rico has apparently declared its desire to enter the union, though many dispute this fact due to the way that the referendum was phrased:
Puerto Rico Statehood Experts Challenge Results
The wider geopolitical issues of a newly divided US are many, but what strikes closer to home for many on this site would be the fact that a defunct US’ successors would likely also inherit the US citizenship based taxation model. Imagine that California secedes from the US – Who are the new citizens of this country? Are they every citizen who is resident in California during the transition or anyone with a Californian-born parent (or grandparent even)? What about those of us who gave up US citizenship? Would we be forcefully included as citizens of this new country?
One would hope that any new state’s constitution would declare those with US citizenship at the time of independence and state residence or birth as the qualifiers for citizenship and not solely birth. I’ve already had to renounce citizenship of one country – I hope that I don’t have to do so again in the future.
All US states and territories currently tax based on residence (or don’t have an income tax), so they would probably not implement citizenship-based taxation. The problem is whether the US would still consider the citizens of the new country as US citizens and try to tax them.
The Joint Committee on Taxation wrote a report in 2006 discussing the taxation of people in Puerto Rico if it became a US state or an independent country (pages 65-71):
It’s amazing how there is no mention of reporting requirements, and the subject of double taxation is dismissed with the foreign tax credit.
Don, I doubt that would happen. If it actually started to become an issue, they would:
First, use the media to talk about everyone who wants to secede is a whacko, allthewhile deleting comments from reasonable people who have strong points to secede. If that doesn’t work, they’ll probably ship the ringleaders off to Guantanamo. They would never let the cash cows go.
It’s interesting to think about, but I’m sure the passengers on the Titanic cared very little about where they would be living in America while the boat was going down.
We went through this stuff before in the 1800s the result was statehood is a one-way proposition there is no seceding. A major war with way too many deaths was fought about it, and the side that said once you become a state, you’re always a state, won. Unless these states want Civil War Mk II, this is just a bunch of idiots copy and pasting petitions on the We The People website.
@WhoaIt’sSteve, like the idiots who signed the Declaration of Independence.
@Petros Colonists fighting for freedom from a hereditary monarchy, versus racists who want to secede because the President is African-American. Not an apt comparison in my view.
@WhoaIt’sSteve, Are you incapable of coming up with anything except an ad hominem attack against people you disagree with? People are angry with the US Federal Government not because Obama’s an African-American but because their freedoms are being lost and because the USA is run by a bunch of children who have no idea how to be true leaders. Consider the budget deficit which will eventually lead to the destruction of the US dollar, and likely, every currency in the world with large US dollar reserves.
Consider just the article on the side bar dealing with the Constitutional rights that the US government has curtailed via their hunt for offshore tax revenue from expats. The 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th amendments are in jeopardy with impunity from the government and the courts. Consider how also the manner in which the Feds have given themselves the power to suspend habeas corpus, constitutional money, and any number of other aspects of how they destroy the rights of the people. Then when you’ve done that, tell me that I and other Americans who don’t want anything to with that government are not to compare ourselves with the signers of the Declaration of Independence. So far, all you have done is mention the threat of violent force–that of course, does not constitute an argument, only a “might makes right” attitude. Just what I would expect from a Homelander.
@Petros I can come up with tons of arguments for someone who may have an actual grievance or good reason for wanting to form a community or state outside the United States. The Cascadia Movement in the Pacific Northwest is one grassroots campaign that albeit has no hope of succeeding is motivated by a shared cultural and geographic bond not one like these ridiculous people with transparent justifications about how their “rights” are being taken away when it’s easy to see from their own literature and signs at their gatherings what their real motivations are, and it is nothing noble like defending the Constitution.
If you think you’re in league with the Forefathers of the United States who am I to contradict you, the one thing though was that they believed in the rule of law, and democracy. A fair election was held with fair results, and one side prevailed the other did not. The way we resolve conflict in this civilized country is through discussion, debate, and discourse, not taking your ball and going home.
My first reaction to hearing about people wanting to secede is to shake my head and question whether they know our nation’s history but also to wonder if they’re open to discussion, debate, and discourse, the answer to the first part is they might not know about the Civil War and it’s intricacies or they may hold a 160 year old grudge, the answer to the second part is of course not they don’t or won’t hold a civil discussion because they never cede any points, there is no compromise to them, they hold in their heads the only position they think is worthy and anything less is viewed as a complete loss.
@Whoisit’sSteve, Really, no compromise? Let’s see, what if the USA began to live within its means? Ron Paul has suggested Constitutional money as the solution to making sure that Congress and the Executive lives within its means. How about returning to the people their actual constitutional rights? When the government abridges and annuls the Constitution, there is no longer a contract with the People. The people that I’m hearing on this issue are talking about that sort of thing. But the other side is the one that won’t compromise: they will insist on overspending and debasing the US dollar until the whole system collapses.
For the people I see advocating succession, it’s not about a 160 year old grudge for them, except when the new Federal profligacy brings up old wounds. Look at us at Isaac Brock Society. The current action of the United States reminds us of an invasion of Canada that took place 200 years ago. Now, the paternalistic losers of that war would suggest to us that we should not find inspiration in Isaac Brock’s heroism because Americans might find it offensive.
So yes, you yankees won the Civil War, but you seem to want to continue to Lord it over the South. You were bad winners.
By the way, I ascribe to libertarian principle that property rights are the measure of a just society, not democracy. So Obama won the election. I sympathize with those who lost, though I don’t believe that Romney would have change the inevitable financial collapse of the United States. Democracy is three wolves and a lamb voting on what is for dinner.
W.H. Petition Calls for Stripping Citizenship and Exile for Anyone Who Signs Petition to Secede
Sign both petitions and get a coupon worth $450 dollars in embassy services
Yes, that would really work out well. OF course we’d probably end up being lined up against a wall and shot if we crossed the border to see our folks in the States as traitors subject to the Federal Death Penalty. But at least it would take care of paying taxes. “Strip us of citizenship…then you’ve just retroactively lost all rights to taxes”. Tough luck, USA!
I find the following graph fascinating:
My question is why did 84% of gays vote for Obama. Is it just gay marriage, or is there something else that does not meet the eye?
My guess is that like the black, feminist and and other grievance voter blocks that there is an inherent hatred by gays for the values that white Christian families for generations pursued, the American dream. A dream that for various reasons they feel excluded from and entitled to forever after feed upon.
Steve has illustrated over multiple threads how much disdain he has for the right for others to simply leave a country and live unmolested, to renounce or now even to secede. For those of you still who cannot figure it out, those various grievance groups that compose the backbone of the democratic party don’t want you to escape from their entitlement to whatever piece of your lifetime income they deem “fair”. Secession and renouncement are the same thing in the end. FATCA is but one battle in their civil war to chain you to their state.
I see two possible ways that the US empire is going to go down. In an all encompassing totalitarian state or in civil war. Canada probably won’t escape this as unscathed as she did the last one.
@ConfH, My question is why 14.1% of Mormons voted for Obama. Huh?
The values that white Christian families for generations pursued, the American dream
Three brief comments. (1) The “American dream” is manifestly a nightmare jumble of racism, genocide, environmental rape, colonialism, crass economic exploitation, etc – how can anyone use that sick phrase without drowning in irony? (Not to mention the savage pursuit of extraterritorials.) (2) Language like this does not mesh with an understanding – one that seems congruent with many CH utterances – that the State has perpetual demonic tendencies. (3) The notion of an individual’s faith commitment being tied to race, social grouping, or temporal genealogy looks like the essence of Statist perversion. To put that into an apophthegm: There is no such thing as a second-generation Christian.
Petros – The gay Mormons voted for Obama?
*I have been rabidly anti-American as of late. With the United States trying
to go after what money my wife earns (as she is a US citizen who is seriously
thinking about getting rid of her US citizenship and becoming a naturalized
Canadian citizen), I have been enraged and furthermore become more and more
I have come to the conclusion that the United States is a massive
nation-cult. Some people will object to this, but hear me out. A cult is defined
as “new religious movement or other group whose beliefs or practices are
considered abnormal or bizarre” It is one of the hallmarks of a cult to have
certain practices and symbols that render their participants into a state of
catatonic “bliss”. Take for example, the American flag. To anyone not of US
birth, the American Flag (note that it is always capitalized for most Americans
who use it in writing). Even when it is taken alone and used “The Flag”, what is
the first impression that comes to mind? The American flag. Cults have
buzzwords. The American Cult has the buzzwords “Freedom, Liberty, the pursuit of
happiness.” As if those things don’t exist in certain other nations.
There are key components to a cult: Mind control where – Studies have
identified a number of key steps in coercive persuasion: 1)People are put in
physically or emotionally distressing situations; 2)Their problems are reduced
to one simple explanation, which is repeatedly emphasized; 3)They receive what
seems to be unconditional love, acceptance, and attention from a charismatic
leader or group; 4)They get a new identity based on the group; 5)They are
subject to entrapment (isolation from friends, relatives and the mainstream
culture) and their access to information is severely controlled. The first is
the media control of the United States media – notice that their programming
pretty much is all fear-based. This emotionally distressing or physically
distressing situation is kept up repeatedly by the media in playing out violence
that happens in their nation as well as in other parts of the world. The second
where their problems are reduced to one simple explanation: such as the attacks
of 9/11 – The terrorists did it, the terrorists are the bad guys, With the
election of Barack Obama, the third came into play – he was elected as a
charismatic leader who doles out affection, love and attention, especially to
those undeserving of his attention such as those who would seek to stay on
government assistance and welfare. 4) Americans are Americans – that is their
identity and they use it every chance that they can get. From the Pledge of
Allegiance, to the jingoistic marches of Sousa, to the constant ceremony and
rituals; it is drummed into them from the time they were born. They have a world
wide reputation of being the boorish, outspoken tourist that keeps asking why
everyone else doesn’t conform to American values. 5) American culture is
America-centrist. To most others this would be typified as brainwashing.
Everything is put through the “America is better” filter before it is fed to the
American public. This is why their country is typically so jingoistic and
Americans appear to have the mentality that “the world revolves around us”.
According to psychologists, the cult joiners have a need for subconscious –
psychological fulfillment – unfortunately those of us who are awake tend to call
it a need to be controlled by someone else, a need to be told what to do.
Ultimately, it is manipulation no matter which way you look at it.
Considering how many wars the United States has started or been in, there is
a distinct potential for harm not only to other nations, but to their own
cult-members as well. The Viet Nam War Memorial has a list of 58,282 names of
those Killed in Action.
Leaving a cult is not easy and as such leaving the United States is not easy.
Punitive Legislation, such as the Reed Amendment where US renunciants lose their
citizenship for tax reasons are forbidden to visit the United States and a
punitive fine of $450 for the act itself of renouncing one’s citizenship and tax
forms to seize assets if one has more assets than they deem that you should
depart the country of your birth or naturalization with. All this makes it
difficult to leave this cult-nation.
If you are not an American, don’t get involved. If you are an American, don’t
you think it’s about time to leave?
@Petros Of course the US Government spends way too much, I’d propose cutting the DoD budget to a fraction of what it is now, but that’s a non-starter for most on that other side, they’d rather cut any and all social programs and condemn people to starvation and death. No one in the North lords the Civil War over the South, the fact the Union won, the Confederacy lost. Anyone still dwelling or thinking about it, usually has other outdated ideas regarding things like race and gender equality.
@Confederate I’m actually a believer in low taxes, and smaller decentralized government. I have no agenda regarding “traditions” except that if someday I may want to make a relationship I’m pursuing official in the eyes of the law I’d like my government to acknowledge it and share with me the same benefits it confers on other couples. I have no harsh feelings regarding religion, I was raised in between the Roman Catholic and the protestant Lutheran churches, I was confirmed and took first communion and my grandmother was the President of the Congregation, so far from being against the “traditions” of White Americans I’m for many of them.
I have never made those statements, I think moving away to a new country is an adventure, and while I’m not adventurous I wouldn’t be here if my family hadn’t been adventurous. I try not to share personal details, but I wouldn’t be here had my mom’s parents not come to the US from Malta and had their daughter, or my dad’s mom from Denmark and met my grandfather to make my dad. While at first I will admit I bristled and was just a dumb American regarding issues of Americans abroad I realize now that the issues are real and do negatively affect all and any Americans who choose to live abroad.
@The Animal A cult huh? Hmm it’s a pretty big cult I guess, I don’t feel brainwashed just because I love my country, I think we do a lot of things wrong, and a lot of bad things have been done in the government’s name that I wholly disagree with, so maybe I need to be “re-educated” right? lol 🙂
*There have movements to secede from the US since the beginning of the republic.
The New England movement is relevant to our observance of the 200th
anniversary of the War of 1812.
Steve, it’s not really an adventure, trust me. I’ll say this stuff because you said you don’t like adventures, so I’m not raining on your parade.
It’s the same thing: you wake up, get dressed, go to work, work, go to lunch, come back, work, go home, watch TV or rant on the internet, and then go to bed. The real “adventures” are really trips/vacation, which most people like, except me. I don’t like to travel anymore. Take my life for instance, there is almost no difference with life here, except I live in a smaller city so I don’t have to drive long distances. Everyone uses a different language, but to my brain, it sounds like English. Everyone (even “furiners”) think and feel the same. The words come out in a different language, but the emotions behind the words are the same. Not too exciting…
There is also a tax wing of the government like the IRS. The don’t threaten so much like the IRS, but everyone knows that they’ll fine the bejeezus out of you if you don’t pay. Also, bank lines are abolutely atrocious here. 50 people in line is nothing because you can’t do everything over the internet. How is that an adventure? No place is perfect. Adventures = travelling/vacation, not swapping one country for another.
@Animal – maybe just brainwashed is better. How they think that they are the only country where people make money or the only place where people have freedom of choice? Americans to me are a little like sheeple-zombies. They chant these “freedoms” but have never seen life outside of their own country. And they are very much influenced by the media there i.e, Swiss Bank accounts are bad!. Try talking about travels or experiences living abroad. You’ll just get a blank stare. As always, every stereotype has its exceptions, like Steve coming here to see the other side of the story.
pertinent to the discussion
Ron Paul farewell to Congress. Explains why it is how it is for those of us outside the razorwire.
Some of Ron Paul’s points just weren’t do-able. But his basic arguments of smaller government were excellent. He will be missed!
Funny, IMO every word Ron Paul said hit the target. And he started with “this is probably the last time I will speak to this house”. Even he didn’t dare say “the last time as a congressman”. Ron Paul will be back if they don’t snuff him out soon. This secession movement will not go away even if they force it underground.
Ron Paul posed so many questions that need to be answered. I hope some were listening (besides C-Span). I’m his speech has been made available online, actual and text.