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While enjoying veggie lasagna at the Drugstore Steakhouse on the Champs-Elysées near l’Arc de Triomphe, I couldn’t help but to wonder how related patriotism is to renunciations. As I cleaned up my dish, I came to the conclusion that American politicians are generally not qualified to judge the patriotism of (former) Americans abroad. This is a unique topic of interest these days, since 8,000 American patriots are expected to renounce this year, as reported in the New York Post, which is more than ever before in US history. The demand is now so strong, that American patriots may have to wait year(s) simply to renounce.
Naturally, it is normal and understandable that so many American patriots are renouncing under the given the circumstances, understood by many Americans abroad. With some politicians directly or indirectly accusing Americans abroad of being “traitors“, “despicable” or even “unpatriotic” since they don’t want to be accused of being “unseemly and disgusting” or even “tax evaders” for banking offshore at their local bank while being denied banking services in America or abroad due to the latest US policy, or refused the ability to vote in US elections, or financially penalized for working abroad, one can only expect for more American patriots to be renouncing their US citizenship in the near future, even without mentioning the many problems related to citizenship-based taxation that some critics of renunciations like to base their misled arguments on.
Australia and New Zealand Banking Group Limited Wrote:Any brokerage and investment advisory services described herein are not intended for U.S. Persons. Furthermore, any solicitation on this web site of retail banking services (including accepting and/or soliciting deposits), insurance services, mortgage and/or consumer lending services or credit card services is not intended for U.S. Persons.
The problem is simple. Federal law dilutes the votes of Americans abroad among the 50 states, preventing Americans abroad from having a voice, being represented or even being heard in America because of the distance.
Wiki (translated) Wrote:The [American] colonists were allowed to vote as British citizens, but couldn’t actually exercise this right because of the great distance.
With maybe 70% of Americans never having left America and the lack of international coverage in American media, America stops thinking beyond its border, as so many US politicians frequently demonstrate. How can domestic Americans vote for or represent those abroad they know or understand little or nothing of? Americans are not known for loyally obeying the dictation of distant bipartisan monopolies or monarchies.
Multichannel Investing Wrote:When it comes to the way Americans think, our world stops at our borders
A patriot is one who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractor. Yet, this does not mean that one must be a citizen of a bipartisan monopoly heading in the wrong direction. I’ve encountered some non-Americans around the world who were far more American patriotic than some US citizens living in America like those politicians unconditionally supportive of the non-America. Some non-Americans love what America was created for and what it represents, but not where some politicians are taking it today. American patriots renouncing abroad may very well take the best of what American once was and implement it at its fullest where a new America will become, with or without being penalized with an exit tax.
US History Wrote:We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Insulting (former) Americans abroad, taxing them without representation, attempting to prevent or discourage patriots from renouncing or denying them the right to enter or leave America, are not the ideals that America was founded upon. American patriots are not required to obey a system which destroys the values which represent America. America may be a culture, a mentality, an ideology or a way of life, but not necessarily a passport, tax system or club membership, depending upon how it is viewed by the individual. Instead of attempting to judge American patriots abroad that one knows little or nothing of, US politicians would better spend their time and taxpayer money focusing on seeking for America to be loved, respected and appreciated just as how the Founding Fathers wanted it to be.
The world is huge and beautiful with many wonderful people. American patriots abroad might be prohibited from returning to America, censured from expressing political criticism, denied political representation, penalized or double-taxed, burdened with senseless bureaucracy and even encouraged or pressured to renounce. Yet, they will continue to be Americans in their hearts and their American values will be warmly welcomed and appreciated around the world, outside of America, maybe even more without US citizenship. One does not have to be a US citizen to be an American patriot and there may even be many advantages to being a non-US citizen American patriot abroad. America needs American patriots abroad, but do American patriots still need America?
Hawaii News Daily Wrote:The power of the U.S. dollar has been one of the few things holding up our economy. Once that leg gets kicked out from under us we are going to be in a whole lot of trouble.
American expats renouncing US citizenship are true patriots of liberty. They are “dissolving the political bands” connecting them to a government that has become a champion of tyranny.
Taxation without representation is tyranny! Taxation with no government services is tyranny!
The principles laid down by America’s founders and enshrined in the Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights have been betrayed. The US Government is not the protector of liberty for expats. It is the traitor of it.
Americans abroad have “petitioned for redress in the most humble terms: our repeated petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A government, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.”
“Nor have we been wanting in attentions to our American brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here.”
“They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity.”
American expats renouncing US citizenship are true patriots. They are not so blinded by the emotions of nationalism that they cannot see the tree of liberty standing right in front of them—in the countries where they are living now.
JOHN HANCOCK
This is a great post.
Here is my take on the issue of patriotism.
http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2011/12/07/patriotism-and-renunciation-of-u-s-citizenship/
Frankly, at this point I believe that a true American Patriot would renounce. The only true Patriot Homelanders are The New England Patriots football team.
@JH, I want to react to this phrase: “They are not so blinded by the emotions of nationalism”
What is nationalism? It is tied to an ethic origin, a language, a culture, or a region. America is a nation of immigrants–same as Canada. We do not have strong nationalism, not like what Jet Li would feel towards China and Chinese culture.
I am a son of family wanderers on my Dad’s side; no place could hold them down until my Dad finally migrated to Alaska in the late 1950s where he still lives in warmer months (he is a Winter Texan). We have no strong ties to land, but rather, we went where our Wanderlust took us, or where opportunity knocked. On my mother’s side we left the ancestors grave site in Korean village ca. 1905, so that it was no longer possible to practice our traditional religion. Severe poverty severed us from the deep nationalistic ties that held us to Korea–and my grandparents, children in arms, went to Hawaii to work in the sugar plantations with around 6000 other Koreans. My mother’s family lost most of its Korean nationalism, though there was still some pride in our food, language and ethnicity. But no one in my generation speaks any Korean, except one of my cousins, who was stationed there.
Nationalism to the United States? Well, I pledged to the Queen of Canada upon becoming a Canadian and it is an oath I intend to keep. I will gladly defend this country against the United States if I have to. I’ve made my choice. Does that make me a patriot? Yeah, but not an American Patriot. My home and native land is now Canada.
*Many years ago I took an oath to defend and uphold the constitution, not the country although that is implied, certainly not to defend a government. The founding fathers understood that their government could be the enemy. Because of FATCA and other overreaching efforts by the IRS the US government has become our enemy.
I parsed the possible consequences of my renounciaton, to include being banned from the US, forfeiture of Social Security benefits etc. The US can take from me whatever the capacity to take. I get to keep the important stuff ” the inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”.
I am a free person in a free country called Canada
*John Hancock, did you know that John Hancock Insurance is now a subsidiary of Manulife Financial, a Canadian company? See
http://www.johnhancock.com/about/
In a historical irony, the company named for the most prominent signer of the Declaration of Independence has been taken over by Canadians. That will no doubt require Manulife Financial to participate in FATCA if that company wants to keep doing business in the US through its John Hancock subsidiary, unless the insurance company can expatriate to Canada and sever all ties with the US, as many of us have done. 🙂
.
“The problem is simple. Federal law dilutes the votes of Americans abroad among the 50 states, preventing Americans abroad from having a voice, being represented or even being
heard in America because of the distance.”
No, the problem is very complex and extends far beyond the issue of citizenship based taxation. People who still believe in government while complaining about how it treats its own constituents so callously and so cruelly are a very large part of the problem too.
Just look what is happening in France, (where you currently are and yet you fail to mention):
Wealthy flee France
The issue is far greater than a few Obama supporting lefties finally learning the meaning of “spread the wealth”. The issue is that the illegal and morally bankrupt social welfare state has run out of other peoples money.
@CH
Well put.
@Petros stated: “Yeah, but not an American Patriot. My home and native land is now Canada.”
This is what I tried to stress (with difficulty) in the last line: “Do American patriots still need America?”. An American patriot without America basically implies that one invests the best of oneself into one’s local surroundings for its greater benefit. In your case, that would mean making Canada better for Canadians as a Canadian nationalist.
*The Post’s anonymous source predicting 8,000 renunciations this year (and 3,805 last year – that figure is new to me, and doesn’t come from the hopelessly confused and confusing name-and-shame list) is important and deserves its own post.
The rest of the story is nonsense (Australia and Norway tax havens?).
@CH, I totally agree that the problems in the US are highly complex and that the US government has run out of other people’s money to spend. With simple, I was thinking more along the lines of bridging the gap between the domestic US and Americans abroad which, due to the complexity you mentioned, is near impossible.
@A broken man on a Halifax pier, the 8000 figure from New York Post is listed in several papers, such as Fox News, and is stated as being projected by immigration officials. The quote from ANZ relates to being denied banking services. I would have loved to have added a quote for each issue mentioned, but that would have been a bit too much. As for nonsense, well, everything has its reason and purpose and everyone has an opinion. 🙂
*I do not care about FATCA. The local banks where I reside now can send whatever reports they want to the IRS. They will coincide with my FBARS. If the US laws say that I have to file IRS Returns every year, of course I will do it, as I have been doing all along. It is a pain to have to go through this every year. More work than if I was living in the USA. And more expensive.
But, what I can´t accept are a few things:
1. The penalties for not knowing about FBARS and not filing then since 2003. They are unacceptable, a perverse way to collect money from helpless people who can´t afford even a Tax Lawyer.
2. Double taxation. Having to pay for instance SS Self Employment Tax in two countries when they have no treaty.
3. Taxing local pensions of some Americans Abroad and not others. For instance Americans in France do not pay US Taxes in the French Pensions. Americans in other countries do.
4. Taxing certain interest and dividends that are not taxed locally and were created by working locally. For instance, Savings in certain countries are not taxed. The US comes and tax them.
The best of course would be for the USto move into a residency based taxation like every other country. But if the US insists in having this citizenship based system, this can be done in a honest, clear, fair way. Not by creating traps and applying penalties to Americans Abroad that are not applied to Americans in the USA.
Also, if the US will insist in this model, then Americans Abroad should have Representation in the House and Senate. Like other Americans have. Without this they will be an easy prey. They don´t deserve this. They are not doing anything wrong when they live and work abroad.
Several comments and posts here have quoted the stats ‘projected 8,000 for 2012’ and ‘3805 for last year’. I spent about an hour and a half today on the internet trying to find something that substantiated those numbers, with no luck. Has anyone had better luck?
It came from New York Post, Paul Tharp. I find comments regarding sensationalism of the New York Post, like: “Of the 10 U.S. papers with the highest circulation, only one – the Rupert Murdoch-owned New York Post – could be considered really sensationalist.” and “Since 1993, it has been owned by media mogul Rupert Murdoch’s News Corporation, which had owned it previously from 1976 to 1988. It is the seventh-largest newspaper in the U.S. by circulation.[3] Its editorial offices are located at 1211 Avenue of the Americas, in New York City, New York. The Post is known for its conservative editorial policy and sensationalist headlines.”
As commented on by Expat4ever at http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/22/posted-on-aca-more-journalists-would-like-to-hear-our-stories/
Expat4ever
June 24, 2012 at 9:15 pm
Guess we’ll have to ask that journalist. Internet searches don’t work. But, I, too, do believe that renunciations / relinquishments must be higher than reported in the other sensationalist US “Name and Shame List” as often discussed here.
@Calgary, absolutely, I believe that the stats are higher than what the US is reporting. But, I’d like to know the real number, not something pulled out of thin air, with nothing to substantiate it. 8,000 would make for some GREAT headlines if it could be substantiated. If the 1781 (or whatever that number was that was announced) made headlines, and caused people to write articles and blogs, then just imagine what could be done with a number 4 times higher!
*What would make big headlines is if the media find out that the numbers being published are a lie. Then they can start asking who made up the false numbers and why.
Very, very true, TrueNorth! You’re right, that would make much bigger headlines.
A graphic showing a line up stretching to tiny figures over the horizon, waiting their turn. With a caption, in front of the outline of a building labelled ‘US consulate’, a US official making Xs on a blackboard; “8,000+ down and counting…”
500 former Americans are said to have renounced in Switzerland last year. That would be about one third of the total reported and maybe less than 2 people per day in Bern. For this one must wait 18 months? With such a long waiting list and high processing fee, the embassy could certainly work with 20+ renunciations a day, or would that mean creating offshore jobs which require offshore banking?
Here is another article about France (in German):
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/frankreich-die-wohlhabenden-werden-zur-kasse-gebeten-11824694.html
They say whereas France normally has 50 expatriations, that up to July this year they have had 90. Hollande is increasing the wealth tax to 96,000 euros per year for a wealth of 4,000,000 euros. Politicians are too stupid to realize what effects these kinds of outrageous tax compliance burdens will have.
One thing is very predictable: As this worldwide fiat currency titanic goes under they will implement wealth taxes across the western world
*I find it interesting that the focus here is primarily on US citizens whereas the Exit tax also covers Greencard holders. Greencard holders although paying taxes have no representation and are even easier targets. Should they wish to return to their home country and families they must pay to leave. In most cases they were fully educated at another country’s expense, were transferred to US positions based on their expertise/talent developed ex-US, have made substantial contributions to the American economy, and paid substantial taxes for which they will get no benefit from the US. These hapless victims pay all the way to the exit gate, what a surprise they fast lose any respect for the US, a country that sprouts the rights and freedom of the individual yet clearly has no respect for them.
Sally Mac, if you would like to write something up, we would be happy to post it as a new thread. It is not so much intentional but that writers tend to focus on issues which are important to them.
Send it to me — petros at the domain name for this website.
*Sally Mac, I would love to hear more stories from Greencard holders. If you know any, please send them here to share their experiences. The more that people talk, the better that we’ll be able to understand the situation.
@ swisspinoy
You could look below in the participant’s section for my story. I no longer actually hold a green (kryptonite) card but the acknowledgment of that is still in limbo. Letters and e-mails to USCIS have as yet not made them budge from sitting on my I-407 (the green carder’s CLN). My plan as a Canadian citizen is to continue not doing FBARs for my individual accounts whereas my American husband has always “submitted” — including listing our joint accounts. I will likely not do 8938 or 8854 either since I do not intend to ever cross the border. (I decided that 15 years ago for totally different reasons.) My only mistake was not knowing about the I-407 until a few months ago.