What the new IRS rules mean for U.S. citizens living in Canada natpo.st/KK2Oao – Not much so far – what is a “low compliance risk”?
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) June 30, 2012
“For taxpayers in the grey zone — the small business owner, the high income earner, the wealthy grandmother with assets in a holding company — the news release may be less comforting,” said Christine Perry, a cross border tax specialist with Keel Cottrelle LLP.
“Until we get some indication of who is a compliance risk and who isn’t I think there will be a continued reluctance to come forward.”
U.S. taxman finally eases pressure on American citizens in Canada vancouversun.com/business/taxma… – Only for those who are “low compliance risk”
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) July 1, 2012
The IRS was, in my view, slow to the point of negligence in determining some kind of relief for people who were put in a terrible situation through no wilful wrongdoing. And the agency still needs to clarify the details.
Brockers who are inclined to comment take note.
@ Stephen Mopsick
If my husband and I had not been out celebrating Canada Day on both sides of the border most of day (Alberta/BC NOT Canada/USA) I would have stepped in quicker to say I agree with your measured assessment of the latest attempt by the IRS to “make nice” with “gonna getcha” eyes. You are a highly valued contributor to IBS and I hope all commenters will refrain from personal attacks, direct or stealth. We don’t all need to agree and we certainly won’t. We just need to keep our compassion levels up, realizing most of us are in a pretty leaky boat right now and some of us need to bail out the boat and others need to bail out of the boat.
@All: Re: Getting IRS help from 30 year IRS vet.
I was not aware that 30 year vet was a long time poster, but I did realize that I was jeopardizing his coming forward as a continued source of valuable information for people facing the burden of achieving “compliance” to their masters’ tax whims.
I am sick and tired of dealing with these minions of corruption spewing out from the belly of the beast in Washington. The government is completely corrupt and therefore so are every single one of its minions. It doesn’t matter if it is a 4 star general, the president, or especially the chief of the supreme court. They are no better than party officers of the NKVD or the Gestapo whose job it is to suppress dissent and feed the beast.
The reaction from other contributors here shows a certain level of Stockhom Syndrome. I know, because I have exibited it before when being confronted by Immigration officers, TSA and Police. And I am deeply ashamed of it. Stockholm Syndrome is when you show undue deference to some power-hungry strong arm of the state out of fear of his power to use life altering force delegated to him by a corrupt state.
So if any one of you want to criticize me for speaking the truth, do it for my only telling the truth anonymously and for my being too cowardly to say it to a minions face during an IRS audit or a TSO full body pat down. But please do not give this corrupt minion respect that he is certainly not deserving of.
I am sorry, but a 30 year career spent bullying and scaring people into feeding an illegitimate and corrupt government is nothing to be proud of, and I don’t care if he is a GM-17 in Washington DC or a GS-5 working in a call center in Philadelphia.
*Confederate, 30-year-vet is not here bullying anybody. IMHO, he’s being a professional, but also (before you came here), advising people to to relax because their chances of “trouble” were relatively low. Well well.. now the IRS rules seem to do something-like-that, but surely not what people were really hoping for.
Stockholm sydrome is something compeltely different than the context that you are using to describe many here. A better way to describe it is the stages of shock and bewilderment, as I felt when I first discovered all of this nonsense coming from Washington. It’s easy to get sidetracked into thinking conspiracies like Obama screwing Whitey.. your comment was funny.. but I know that race really doesn’t have anything to do with it, since all of this started getting worse under Clinton and Obama is merely an extension.
Personally, I don’t like the US Government, US Foreign Policy, the high-level corruption in the US, or even the American “character” (how they fly off the handle at anything, or use excessive force evewhere you look). BUT I recognise Stephen’s contributions here, and I appreciate his interaction with the people, especially the people with more complicated cases.
Just so you know too: Despite not liking anything to with the US anymore, I don’t take this out on anyone else. I have resigned to the fact that renunciation WILL happen, after I’m granted citizenship here. And that there is no specific person who you can assign the blame to for this mess. This is the result of greed (on the part of the government) and hysteria (which allows government to pass insane laws), 2 things that very well make up the “American Character”.
So I guess what I’m saying is chill out and renounce. We can affect the system, but I seriously doubt we can change it. I’m not even trying. After all, I live somewhere else, and I can care less about returning to the US.
@ConfederateH
I am familiar with your story from earlier posting and I am completely sympathetic with your personal story which is very difficult. I suspect you and me would agree that the senior management of your employer probably belong in jail(which I happen to have induced the name of but will let others figure out) along with government officials in Switzerland and the US that condoned/encouraged their activities. However, I don’t hold you at all to blame for ANYTHING that has gone on despite working at said(unnamed) employer for many years. I agree totally that millions of dollars that could be used to create REAL businesses and REAL jobs whether in Switzerland, Canada, the US, or Timbukto is being blown on fancy tax lawyers staying out Five Star Hotels in Zurich and having steak dinners every night of the week. Being much younger than you I am actually trying to do something about this because I don’t want to live my life in the world you have been living for the last few years.
@Confederate, thank you for offering your opinion. Respectfully, I have to disagree. When we were having this discussion (pre-Dec 12, 2011, when we started this site) at the Expat Forum, none of us were experts–some had slightly more advanced lay knowledge of the subject while others were in shock, just as Geeez describes. Phil Hodgen once made a comment at the Expat Forum–now removed because Bob Sheth, the Expat Forum administrator and owner, censored the thread that it was on–and the Expat Forum moderators told Phil that if he wanted to make to make future comments, he would have to pay for it, because they took his participation as a form of advertising. This was one of the reasons I urged the other founders of this blog to move out on our own. If a professional like Phil Hodgen will offer his $750 per hour advice for free on this blog, hell, we are going to let him. The same applies to Steven J. Mopsick and the other professionals who have participated. When professionals have made particularly interesting comments, I have called attention to them by starting a new thread. I’ve been doing that with Steven’s comments since he started participating.
As a former litigator for the IRS, Steven offers us something we can’t get anywhere else–an insider’s view and understanding of the IRS, albeit not today’s IRS, but nevertheless, an insider’s opinion. And the only reason he can do that is because he’s retired from the IRS. An active employee of the IRS would be fired for participating here.
I sympathize with the view that the IRS is evil, as also the US government is corrupt. This is on a unprecedented scale of corruption, as the US now spends about 1.5 trillion per annum more than it collects in revenue. Mr. Mopsick has defended the folks at the IRS as just hard working bright people who are good family men. I have characterized the IRS as Mordor, speaking gobbledygook, the language of goblins. In a way, both Steven and I are correct. Probably most people at the IRS don’t see the grand picture. They see their job, and they try to do it well, yet they have little sense of how it is corrupt on the larger level. Just Me can testify to outright humanity of one of his examiners–whose hands were tied by those higher up on the food chain.
Consider John Roberts. Do you suppose he understands that he may be the one person upon whom any potential recovery depended in that he could have stopped a massive bureaucracy of Obamacare that threatens to be the straw that breaks the camel’s back? I see no hope for recovery in the US now that this massive program has been found constitutional. Of course, I was already deeply pessimistic.
Chris Martenson explains that the US must fix the insolvency problems by cutting spending and raising taxes, and if they don’t the resolution of the current problems will result in dollar devaluation (i.e., hyperinflation). Instead, they have decided to add a massive, bureaucratic and inefficient health care system. The US refuses to confront in a realistic manner the problem of its insolvency.
What does this evil and corruption have to do with the average IRS employee, or even some of the smart guys running the show, like Douglas Shulman? Are they really evil? I am convinced that they are; 30-year IRS vet says they aren’t. Mr. Mopsick exposes how they see themselves: they are just good law-abiding people doing their job, enforcing the laws that Congress makes. As a victim of those laws and their implementation, I see the whole program as sinister.
But if Sauron himself wanted to blog here, I would let him have his say. It would be instructive. It helps us to understand the enemy.
But Steven J. Mopsick is not Sauron, even though at one time he worked for Mordor. He has become an important ally for the Isaac Brock Society, because he has listened to our cries for help and has begun to advocate on our behalf. And for that I am very thankful indeed. We should never underestimate the value of an ally like that.
Doesn’t the IRS waste a ton its of time going through all of these FBARs and income statements which feature absolutely nothing to collect on? The amnesty should just make it so that anyone not making more than the FEIE does not have to file a 1040 and anyone with a bank account balance under, say, 200,000 doesn’t have to file an FBAR. Any past FBAR penalties should be cancelled for anyone earning under the FEIE or who are citizens of the country in which they live. That would seem like more of an amnesty to me whilst the politicians there sort out the real mess, namely getting rid of FATCA and citizenship-based taxation altogether.
@ Don, your suggestion is great. However, it however fails to consider that the FEIE is an arbitrary limit. So the law and procedures will protect a person who makes 95K but someone who is making 96K is not protected. I think we really need some lessons in justice and democracy.
The problem is the arbitrary and unilateral view of the United States that it has the right to tax its citizens no matter where they make their money, no matter where they live, even if it is within the borders of other sovereign nations. I don’t care if a person makes 1 billion over the FEIE. If that person makes the money in Canada and is paying taxes to Canada, the United States should leave that person and his/her bank accounts alone. Mr. Geithner, get off our backs. Extra territorial taxation is a barbaric throw back to feudal Europe. When you are born an American, they own your ass. You can never escape. You are a slave, property of the USA. That’s why they can tax you no matter where you live.
@Don, that suggestion, again, makes winners and losers and also discriminates based on income. Does the high income earner or good saver always have to take it in the teeth because they can ‘afford’ to pay tribute? These compromises only serve as sacrificial offerings to appease the IRS gods and distracts from the real problem: citizenship base taxation.
@IRS Vet, Re the IRS: ‘They are saying in my opinion, that they created a Frankenstein Monster with the three formal voluntary disclosure programs and they just cannot handle all the paper any more, so stop sending us eight years of amended returns and delinquent FBARs if you are not a tax cheat and if you have not been using offshore accounts and unreported secret earnings to avoid taxes.’ If this is true, why hasn’t Shulman’s mouth caught up with this reality? The IRS continues to gloat over their haul from its OVD programs, yet with TAS’s use of the IRM within and outside these programs, that number is clearly in dispute. The IRS talks from so many sides of its face at any give time that it’s impossible to believe ANYTHING they are saying! On one good note though, it seems as though Nina Olson’s reports are starting to effect a change in behaviour, something to celebrate @ConfederateH?
@Petros, I would NEVER call for banning 30 year IRS vet, I never would. I would far prefer for him to make a long post describing the good things that the government does with the funds he extorts from hard working people trying to make a living. I would also like to know his GS grade and how much we taxpayers have/had 😉 to fork over for him to continue to participate in the ruling elite feeding frenzy.
@Geez, Tim: I didn’t make any specific accusation about 30 year IRS vet, I just made blanket charges that apply to anyone who would work for that organization. I would say the same kind of thing to anyone working for TSA or CIA or NIA or lets face it, anyone who works for the federal government. They should be ashamed of themselves but instead we are forced to deal with the arrogance they build up each day being on the side of the guys dissing out the force of the government that stands behind them. And the same would apply to EU, UN, IMF, WB and any other globalist organization
@ Confederate, Right. I see you agree with the editorial policy. Thanks.
@ConfederateH
Just for your information one the regular commentators here “Don Pomodoro” works for the EU but is as critical of Barroso and Von Rompoy as anyone else. 30 Year IRS Vet actually left their employment several years ago before all of this started up.</p
I find interest in pretty well all of the postings of both IRS Vet and ConfederateH. I don’t find interest in sameold-sameold meandering or the amassing of microscopic FATCA technicalities. What I like about both of those two is that they rip veils away from a perfidious bureaucracy, paint lively pictures, inject content based on solid experience. Piss me off, but don’t bore me. But don’t piss me off with idiot ad hominem, or vapid rhetoric (eg just calling perspectives you don’t like BS). I see IRS Vet growing a critical fang. I see the possibility of ConfederateH becoming even more of a problem to authority by repurposing more of that bright aggression into subversion. Both are good! (And nice to see geeez resurface. We can thank CH for that too.)
@ConfederateH
Many of us seethe with anger every day on these issues, but I do believe you can take the Brock award for angriest contributor. I do my fair share of venting and complaining, but in the end I’m here seeking advice and camaraderie from those in a similar, if not the same predicament. Pardon me if I missed all the contributions you’ve made, but I would really like to hear some of your ideas about how we can find a constructive way through this mess.
@ Steven Mopsick..
In the case of Isaac Brock, I don’t think one sour apple will spoil the bushel. Respectful disagreement is what has been fostered here, and I am pleased to see the generous comments of goodwill you have received. You have been a very valuable contributor, and the 99% here recognize it.
If @Confederate would were half the man his bluster seems to indicate, an apology would be in order with a return to civility, but I wouldn’t hold my breath. We all get upset at times, and hyperbole is allowed, but we don’t need to personally insult each other. It accomplishes nothing.
Thanks for your additional thoughts about the Frankenstein Monster. That was tweetable! LOL
@Just Me: How did I “personally” insult him? I rhetorically ask how can he have self respect having worked for the IRS for 30 years. That is a very pertinent question for a man posting comments on a blog centered on direct victims of the department he appears to be so proud of (by his handle anyway). According to Tim, IRS vet has not worked for the IRS for 7 years. Perhaps he is a whistleblower. In that case I would probably tip my hat to him. But based on his post he still wears rose colored IRS glasses and is still trying to sugar coat their actions.
@bubblebustin:
“how we can find a constructive way through this mess.”
Like others here, my big concern right now is for my children and grandchild. My grandchild has no ties to the US and my son is going to keep it that way. Phew. My son (27) and daughter (20) both want to renounce and that is why we are busy getting them compliant for the last 5 years. So my advice to anyone living outside of the US with dual citizenship would be to renounce ASAP.
Looking at the fiat currency/fractional reserve banking based welfare state from a higher plain, my only advice is to withdraw consent. The western welfare state is morally and economically bankrupt. All of them, even Switzerland. Here is what I am doing:
– Pay little or no taxes
– Take your savings out of the banking system and put it into physical silver and gold or other real assets
– Always PAY CASH, don’t use their electronic banking system because they want to force us into E-money
– Use the black market and barter whenever possible
– Minimize your consumer footprint and don’t listen to their consumer propaganda
– Refuse to accept their lies and always speak the truth
– Prepare yourself and your family physically and mentally for hard times
– Spread the word
Thats really all I can think of. As I said in another post, I think the US is omnipotent. The only thing that is going to bring the empire down is rot and decay from within.
*I have a qestion: Does Canadian immigration law allow Canadians who live in the US (or any other country) and have dual US citizenship enter and leave Canada using US passports, or are they required to use Canadian passports for this purpose?
US law requires that US citizens who are dual citizens of another country use US passports for entering and leaving the US. Every now and then on this blog Canadians with US ciizenship have told us how they have been questioned by US immigration whe entering the US with their Canadian passport, but as far as I recall none have actually been turned back and not allowed to enter. Some have been turned over to an Immigration supervisor and some have been asked if they are current in their US tax filings, but as far as I can recall nobody has told us that they were refused entry. Does anybody know if any have actually been refused entry?
How does it work with Canadian dual citizens traveling to Canada with non-Canadian passports?
How did I “personally” insult him? I rhetorically ask how can he have
self respect having worked for the IRS for 30 years. That is a very
pertinent question for a man posting comments on a blog centered on
direct victims of the department he appears to be so proud of (by his
handle anyway). According to Tim, IRS vet has not worked for the IRS
for 7 years. Perhaps he is a whistleblower. In that case I would
probably tip my hat to him. But based on his post he still wears rose
colored IRS glasses and is still trying to sugar coat their actions.
What you said sounded kind of strong and uncalled for. Stephen has offered to help a couple of people for free on here. I WISH that there were more lawyers who would offer to do that sort of thing.
Sugar coating? Think about his line of work. If someone has to negotiate with the IRS on behalf of clients, they must have an agreeable professional relationship. How is anyone going to want to negotiate with someone who wants their total destruction? Spewing out hate, over-reacting and flying-off-the-handle are all counter-productive. I remember this as common in America. In fact, it took me some years to get away from this myself.
We all have many many many reasons to be angry with the situation and the unethical behavior directed at us. BUT I don’t think that “those responsible” come here and offer to help. See what I mean?
*Roger To answer your question, Canada border guys don’t bother about which passport a dual citizen uses. At present they accept either valid passport. That said, most decals living in Canada use their Canadian passport whenever possible.
@geeez: I haven’t lived in the US for almost 30 years, so if you don’t like my netiquette, blame Switzerland.
I guess it all depends on your point of view. To an SS officer Goering wasn’t guilty of anything more than patriotism, nor all those Third Reich judges who upheld Hitler’s laws. The US government is maintaining a kill list and murdering people around the world by remote drone execution. AFAIK Obama reviews every person on the list and then reviews the footage after each murder. Just look at the latest Federal Government murdering done in your name (or at least in 30 year irs vets name) here.
So anyone working for the Federal Government knows that the government is doing this. Sure, lawyers, paid or not, can argue all day long about all those wars across the middle east and who caused them. But this kill list is clearly a war crime and what does that make anyone who continues to work for the federal knowing what their employer is doing? Almost all of Germany claimed that they had no idea about the concentration camps, but would Mr. 30 year IRS vet care to claim that he had no idea that Obama murdered an American citizen in Yemen without even bothering to charge him with a crime? Even worse, Obama murdered the guy’s 16 year old son and the guy’s nephew because they might have sought revenge.
So you may think I am over the top, but my guess is that you just want to pretend that worst thing the US government has ever done is make you file a 1040. Sorry geeez, the situation is far more dire than that.
How right you are, the government holds all the cards in this situation. Your demand is that we all grovel on this blog to some guy who would likely bully us if we told him the truth during an audit. When I am finally presented with a situation where I can state the truth with out having to face the revenge of the omnipotent state, then by god I will speak the truth.
I don’t need his help, I am already in exile, thanks to people like him and the department that feeds him and his family. Others may need his help, but if the requirement is that they avoid speaking the truth and grovel at his feet then I am certain that many would rather do without his help.
@Confederate: You don’t have to accept Steven’s help. There are many among us who appreciate his contributions. Please don’t judge us or him because of it.
Trust me, none of us have groveled at Steven’s feet. Instead, we’ve had healthy and sometimes heated debate with him over the past several months. Both sides have learned from it.
I’m thankful I don’t have your anger. As Mark Twain said: “Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured.”
@confederateH
Thank you for responding to my question. I too believe that the world as we know it is due for some kind of correction, but I’m not ready to jump out of the system as it is. Does that make me a ‘sheeple’? Is this your effort to ‘spread the word’?
I think that I can assume that most of us here at Brock are committed to finding a political solution to our problems. I can also respect that some events in your life may have made you feel like an outcast, but I’m not ready to join any revolutions yet!
@Confederate: I am not taking anything personally. I was a GM 15 for the IRS since you asked and I was essentially the Chief Counsel for the IRS for thirty-one northern California counties for 15 years (IRS District Counsel, Sacramento District, 1984-2000) and had a lot worse thrown at me by members of the public during that time. It came with the territory. I might also say that I am very proud of the work I did there (a lot of my time was spent giving money back to people against whom my clients, the Special Agents, Revenue Agents, and Revenue Officers, may have over reached in certain cases). It made me feel proud to do my job because I was the gatekeeper in a lot of cases with the ability to say to my “client,” the IRS, “you can’t do that; you better stop that, or you have to give that money back.” As I have said many times on these pages, and I will say it out loud again, the IRS Office of Chief Counsel is the best tax law firm in the world and the job we did in Sacramento for 15 years was by and large a perfect example of what “Good Government” is. BTW to say that “taxes are immoral” in all cases is kinda funny if not plain silly.
Also, in my humble option, it may not be a great idea to publish on the world-wide web your favorite techniques for coping with the burdens put on us by the IRS. In IRS-speak, what you wrote would be considered by IRS managers and instructors as great examples of what the IRS would consider “Badges of Fraud,”
You advised everyone to
“Take your savings out of the banking system and put it into physical silver and gold or other real assets
– “Always PAY CASH, don’t use their electronic banking system because they want to force us into E-money
– “Use the black market and barter whenever possible
– “Minimize your consumer footprint and don’t listen to their consumer propaganda”
I do know that the pages of the Isaac Brock Society are favorite fun-time reading for many, many people at the IRS so I am not so sure its a great idea to give them any untoward ideas about you. Patti Lovelace had a great song which said, “You can feel bad if it makes you feel better.” I hope you feel better soon.
Chill Dude! Its almost the 4th of July!!! Time to celebrate our liberation from John Bull!! (just kidding!!!)
Respectfully submitted,
30 Year IRS Vet
@ 30 Year IRS Vet, Thanks for your cheerful attitude in the face of ad hominem. The others coming to your rescue I hope was gratifying to you and it shows the importance that you’ve come to have at Isaac Brock.
Also, if I decide to do something like pay cash or put my assets in physical silver or gold, I’ll make sure not to mention that on the blog. It is fun to think that anyone at the IRS might be reading these pages (are they masochists?–they can never respond in kind).
@all, I do believe that confederationH is an interloper, here to ‘spread the word’. But then many of us are guilty of that to varying degrees 🙂