Back on June 1st, under the ‘Thank you from a Fellow Brocker’ thread, I posted a question to other Canadian Brockers. There was enough interest and response that we decided to make a new thread to make it easier to follow through on the idea. Below is my original question, and then the comments by other Brockers. (Apologies for the format, did not find the copy post plugin here which allows comments to be copied, so have cut & pasted them into the post.)
July 1 is Canada Day. Can we Canadian Brockers take advantage of this date to encourage/demand our government stand up for our rights? To refuse the US attempt to reclaim our citizenship? To refuse the US attempt to invade our privacy? To refuse the US attempt to take our money? To say no to the US bullying? Can, or should, the Society come up with a message that we all send to the Minister of Finance, the Privacy Commissioner, the Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism?
Imagine if a few hundred emails were all received by them on July 1st, all with the same message. Surely that would have some impact?
I know we get accused of being too Canada-centric here, but with Canada Day coming up, it seemed a perfect opportunity to make a statement to our gov’t. What do people think?
Em – @ outragedcanadian I love your idea. It would be a “Say NO to the USA” e-mail campaign. I’m in and hopefully one of the many good writers here can put the template together for us. I would happily spend the wee hours of July 1st pressing SEND, SEND, SEND.
Outragedcanadian – Thanks, Em! I could even send from my real identity and my outraged identity, and double up! It would be wonderful if one of our more skillful writers could come up with a message that would get attention, and get the point across.
Calgary411 – Absolutely — perfect day to demand further representation from our government representatives.
bubblebustin – I hate to be a wet blanket, but haven’t we been doing this to the best of our abilities all along? Maybe we should stand at the border and burn some Canadian and American flags, but then, er, no one wants to be seen.
Em – @ bubblebustin We have both flags but I kind of like them so I probably wouldn’t burn them. And yes we have been doing this all along but I think the idea is for the e-mails to arrive en masse, hopefully giving them more force. I’m banging pots and pans on “Casserole Nights” (Wednesdays 8PM) for the Quebec students (mostly in protest of Bill 78) BUT we have a cow bell that I could ring every time I press the SEND button on July 1st. Not than anyone would know why but just because it’s fun. 
saddened123 – @Em,Bubblebustin, I love your sense of Humour!
saddened123 – @all, Best Part of North America!http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRI-A3vakVg
Blaze – It would be worth a try, but I have sent four e-mails to Jim Flaherty over the past two months with no response. As Tiger says, Flaherty’s “silence is deafening.”
Outragedcanadian – @Blaze & Bubblebustin, yes, I know we have, but Em’s right. What I thought might – perhaps – maybe – have an impact is to fill their mailboxes on Canada day with the same message from different people on Canada day asking for Canada to stand up for us. Maybe it’s a forlorn hope, but even if no one else does, I think I’ll have to try. The deafening silence IRKS me.
Bubblebustin – (note I did not re-post the video) @saddened, I’ll drink to that! Ok if not flags, how about we burn some effigies? Ok, seriously, I like the letter writing blitz. How about we come up with a message that we agree represents how we feel as a group and send it out en masse? Maybe we can make it from the Isaac Brock Society, as certainly it will get some notice this being the year we celebrate how we burned the white house down in the War of 1812? (Just kidding about the going back and doing it again part)
saddened123 – We need to get more attention..Blaze needs to lead the pack with her Uniform and Sword..
bubblebustin – @saddened, indeed, Blaze the way!
Blaze – “The pen is mightier than the sword.” In this case, it’s actually a computer, rather than a pen–but it reaches more people more quickly.
Here’s are some words I drafted. These are, of course, for discussion, revision or rejection
Two hundred years ago, Sir Isaac Brock fought against the attempted takeover of Canada by the Americans. He lost his life in battle defending what was to become the great nation of Canada.
Today, we celebrate with all Canadians his efforts which resulted in Canadian freedoms, values and independence which are the envy of the world.
On the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812, Canada is again being threatened with Americaninvasion. This time the United States is trying to accomplish through financial bullying what they could not achieve two centuries ago through aggressive war efforts.
The Americans are attempting to invade the lives of law-abiding, honest tax-paying Canadian citizens and residents.
The United States is further attempting, through monetary threats, to force Canadian financial institutions to become an agent of the United States Internal Revenue Service and to force these financial institutions to contravene Canadian privacy, banking, human rights and charter laws.
Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) threatens Canadian sovereignty to determine and maintain the laws of Canada in protecting the rights of ALL of it’s citizens and residents to manage their personal financial affairs in privacy and with confidence with their chosen financial institution.
Approximately 1 million Canadians of American origin or heritage are affected by this attempted intrusion into the lives intrusion into the lives of honest, law-abiding, tax-paying Canadians.
While you have responded to some letters or e-mails, many others have gone unanswered. While you spoke out against FATCA publicly almost a year ago, your silence in recent months has been deafening.
It is time for you to stand up for the rights of Canadians of American origin, or those who may simply have had the misfortune to be born in the U.S. due to circumstances of their Canadian parents or hospitals at the time.
Sir Isaac Brock fought for and gave his life for Canada 200 years ago. On Canada’s birthday, I urge you to stand up for Canada now.
Tell the Americans Canada doesn’t negotiate with financial terrorists. Tell the Americans Canada is an independent democratic country which establishes and enforces laws to protect its citizens and residents. Tell the Americans no foreign government dictates what those laws will be.
Tell Canadian financial institutions they must comply with Canadian laws and they cannot violate those laws to meet the demands of a foreign government.
Most importantly, tell Canadians of American origin they and their financial privacy are safe. Assure Canadians that Canadian laws will not be changed meet the demands of a foreign government. . Learn more about how modern-day Canadians are standing up to the Americans as peaceful, modern day warriors at a forum in Sir Isaac Brock’s name. (http.isaacbrocksociety.com) Join us in ensuring Canadian freedoms are not lost. .
Don’t delay. Do it now. Sir Isaac Brock would expect no less from a Canadian leader.
saddened123 – @Blaze, Yes you are right, the Pen (Computer)is mightier than the sword.. That is a great letter!! Excellent!! Love it!
saddened123 – @Bubble, Love the Video Clip! Great!
bubblebustin – @Blaze, ok you’ve got the nuts and bolts there, but it sounds a little ranty and demanding (but not without passion!) It need tempering, but it could work well as a framework. @saddened, thanks!
Blaze – @bubblebustin’: What do you expect from someone with a Redcoat and a Sword? Unfortunately, I have found being calm and polite doesn’t get Flaherty’s attention.
It’s actually just meant as a draft and is open to changes, additions, deletions or total rejection. I’m a Brocker. I can take it.
Bubblebustin – @blaze, certainly no disrespect intended. I think what you wrote was great, from the heart. I think Flaherty gets it, I don’t know if we give our representatives here enough credit (although who’s to know?) I think there’s a lot of back room negotiating going on and I’ve heard it from a few relatively reliable sources that the Canadian OVDI submissions have been halted in Austin for some reason, and those from other countries are being processed. John Weston, my MP, on last communication said he was working hard on these issues, so I don’t think we’ve been forgotten. I think that these issues, including FATCA have become incredibly sensitive for both countries. Just my opinion, but I think we should approach on the premise that our (Canadian) government is doing what it can. Flaherty said what he had to say last year and at least has not publicly wavered on that.
Em – @ Blaze I think it should be shorter but honestly I wouldn’t want to leave anything out. I like the passion. I think my Flaherty letter was lacking passion because I didn’t want to tick off someone who seemed to be on our side — well not too much anyway. Oh and I think it has to be not specifically for Flaherty because this needs to go to Harper and others tool. EXAMPLE … While you spoke out against FATCA publicly almost a year ago, your silence in recent months has been deafening. COULD BE … While Finance Minister Flaherty spoke out … etc. That would make it easier to send. Knowing me if there was slightly different wording for each person I’d get them mixed up. The idea is to show them we have some numbers now and we are not going to be silent.
bubblebustin – a little music to inspire us all… (bubblebustin posted the Beatles ‘Revolution’, did not copy over)
Em – All right that got me brockin! Thanks bubblebustin.
bubblebustin – Looks like I might Brock around the clock tonight… My husband has a suggestion as to who to send the letter to. How about “Dear Canada”?
Em – Thumbs up from me for “Dear Canada”.
Calgary411 – @All, bubblebustin, Bubblebustin’s husband, on the sidelines, has cut through it all to come up with “Dear Canada”.
I like that idea too — simplification (KISS) .
Letters to the Editors of Canadian newspapers — i.e., for Calgary: the Calgary Herald; the Calgary Sun. And, even our little local weeklies — for instance those like “FastForward” in Calgary (http://www.ffwdweekly.com/)?
Outragedcanadian – @All, love it! I do think passion is required, if, as bubblebustin suggests, we can keep it from appearing to be a rant. I’ve found that quickly turns people off, leads them to think ‘okay, nutcase here’, while reasonable discussion causes an OMG, you’re not serious! that’s insane! response. Very nice work, Blaze! And I also love the Dear Canada idea. Out of curiosity, I checked the Calgary Herald rates, thinking what if we took out a banner or half page ad or something, but it appears to be extremely pricey, so I think your idea of the local weeklies, et al, is a great idea. I have 3 papers I can write to locally, although not sure they’d all publish since they’re sort of related.
Blaze – @EM: Loved got your brocking.
@bubblebustin’: Also love Brock Around The Clock. I can hear Elvis belting it out.
I also really like your husband’s idea of “Dear Canada” for a Canada Day letter. Then we could include Canadian newspapers. Many don’t publish on Canada Day, so if we did that, we should try June 30 (a Saturday) for those that don’t.
If we want to explore the idea of a common letter further, we may want a separate thread for it.
Now, I’m going to actually try to take a Brock Break for the rest of the weekend. Let’s see if I succeed. I think even Sir Isaac occasionally needed R and R
Blaze – Ooops! I think it was Bill Haley and the Comments who did Rock Around the Clock. I can still see Elvis belting it out Brock Around the Clock (with apologies to The Comet).
I definitely need that break I promised myself!
Em – I like the idea of brocking local Canadian newspapers (around the July 1st date) wherever possible. I know the editor of our small town paper so I could try to submit our “Dear Canada” letter to him.
badger -I like ‘Dear Canada’ too. Or, Dear, Beloved Canada. Could it say “as peaceful, modern day ‘RESISTERS’ ” rather than ‘warriors’? Might that wording resonate more with people who don’t understand how serious and far reaching the FATCA threat is yet? Don’t want them to turn off or start getting distracted from the main message?
And mentioning US attempts to retroactively reclaim people who relinquished or renounced decades ago when they chose to become citizens of Canada. Plus the ‘accidentals’. That is such an egregious example of imperial overreach and intrusion into Canada.
We should thank Flaherty for his past public statements and efforts, to give credit where it is due. But we need something to hearten us now, and note that the rest of the world is looking to Canada to lead – as Sir Isaac Brock led – as an example in resistance to US overreach – via FATCA (which is likely true given that we’re next door, and have an entwined history – Australia and others may very well be watching what happens here). And say that while there may be efforts being made in private, the Canadian PUBLIC needs to know that they will be protected. As we pay our taxes in full to Canada, and our Canadian accounts are already fully reported and overseen by the CRA and levels of Canadian government oversight – the US demands to implement FATCA are an insult to Canadian sovereignty. Sometimes even the best neighbour needs to be told where the acceptable limits of co-existence stand.
Mentioning that the US efforts are treating Canadian institutions as if they are vehicles for money laundering – might infuriate Canadians – since it is implying that our own domestic oversight is inadequate or negligent, and should be reporting to the US – bowing to US demands as if Canada was a US subject or colony.
bubblebustin – @all, I agree with Blaze that we should move our “Dear Canada” letter to its own thread so others don’t miss the opportunity to participate. She’s taking a well deserved break from Brock, any volunteers for the honour?
@bubblebustin I hate to keep hammering the same nail, but it’s a very important nail. I like what you wrote except for the phrase “…those Canadians who either live or have lived as Canadian-American dual citizens …”. I’ve never lived as a Canadian-American dual citizen or Canadian-American anything. I was an American citizen until one day in 1975 when I became a Canadian citizen and ceased being an American. I’ve never been a dual and have never thought of myself as one.
I think the wording reads just fine if you simply delete the qualifying phrase in quotes, i.e. open with “On behalf of a special group of Canadians, I would like to wish all Canadians a Happy Canada Day.” I have no trouble with that. Personally I’m not keen on the warm-fuzzy cross-border relationship stuff later on, since I’ve never felt that way and certainly don’t now, but realistically that seems to ring bells with the people currently in power in Ottawa, or at least some of them, so if that’s what folks want in a group letter, so be it (but I’m still writing my own and it isn’t waxing eloquent about hands across the border stuff, I want their hands to stay on their damn side of the border and we’ll keep ours on our side …)
@Bubble Bustin, some good points there. But it may be hard to be generic enough and concise at the same time, as some of us affected by this never were dual citizens, having relinquished US citizenship upon taking Canadian citizenship.
razzum-frazzum, lol! There’s no pleasing you yanks.
We’re not bloody yanks, we’re Canucks.
@schubert, I know. So am I. Ok, we’re only yanks for tax purposes. I seethe most of the time. When I was 12 I got mad when I was called a yankee by Canadian kids. I had to tell them that I was a rebel!
Angry-great idea, count me in. The federal government is negotiating hard on behalf ot the banks, as it should, and letting citizens be picked off one at a time by the IRS. Is not the first obligation of a nation to protect its citizens?
@herb pinder, absolutely it is. I think they need a reminder! Perhaps, as Calgary411 is consistently hoping, they are negotiating behind the scenes to save us, but I can’t put any faith in that. Our govt, and businesses, are so intertwined with the US that I’m afraid that will come take priority. Hence, the Canada day blitz campaign to remind them about us – we’re here, we’re not going away, and we’re vocal (so to speak).
Wow. Lots of great discussion. In reality, there probably isn’t one good letter or any good “one size fits all” term. We are all different and our letters and terms need to reflect that.
Like Schubert and Tiger, I ceased being an American citizen the day I swore an oath to Canada in 1973. The US Consulate told me that was clearly the case. In my Canadian citizenship oath, (which I now have a signed and witnessed copy), I renounced my US citizenship. I would only refer to myself as a former American citizen.
Maybe form letters aren’t the best was to go. If we do that, I’m concerned it looks like a petition and too mass mailing instead of each of us expressing out own words and feelings.
Although I originally liked the idea and may have suggested Letters to the Editor, I know they will only be published with our real names. I hesitate to do that so publicly. It’s like saying “IRS here’s where you can find me. Come get me.”
I have always and will continue to use my real name when writing to government officials, etc.
@Herb: Exactly. I’m not longer confident our government is looking after our needs and rights. If a recent article in Globe and Mail was accurate, they are negotiating a government to government exchange of information with US, similar to the European agreements.
I e-mailed the Minster of Finance to ask it that was true and to express my objections. That is one of four e-mails to which he has not responded.
@Blaze, the group letter does seem to be wrought with difficulties. I liked but was hesitant about your guns blazing out the gate, but somehow it was more genuine than my more measured approach. Great experiment though!
@Blaze/HerbMaybe it’s wishful thinking but I think a demand for reciprocity may just derail FATCA, considering the reaction to DATCA within the US.
Well, we have some good wording that each of us can choose from in creating our letters. And I’m with you, Blaze. I won’t use my real name in a letter to the editor, so I guess that’s out.
However, if we all send in our individual emails/letters around July 1st, especially if we reference Canada Day, I still think it can have an impact to remind Flaherty et al that we’re here and waiting on our govt to speak out in protection of our rights.
It does seem to me, after reading all of this discussion, and letting it ferment for a bit, that there might be MORE impact if each one is individualized.
How about the continuity of a link to Brock Society with each one? Is that kosher?
I link to the Isaac Brock Society when I mention it in the text of an e-mail on this matter. Usually it’s not in the text, though … so I put it at the bottom of the e-mail, our society’s name (link), followed by the tag-line, figuring it may pique someone’s curiosity.
As for this project, I like the idea that people will compose their own e-mails (not a form letter), but I think putting a Brock link is a good idea, indicates that there is an organised force out there.
When I first called the office of my MP, the first thing I was told was “but you ARE an American”. I got angry and said NO I AM CANADIAN! Imagine that a fellow Canadian calling me an American. That in my mind is a big hurdle to jump, to make our fellow Canadians realize that we are not US citizens, we are Canadians! Once the fact that we are Canadian can be established in their minds, things start to make more sense to them. Going back to that first conversation with my MP’s office, they seemed to think this was all something between me an American and the US government, not really the business of Canada or the MP at all.
@True North: If we can’t get our elected officials to accept we are Canadian (how do they think we manage to vote?!?) and not American, how can we ever win this battle.
In all the letters I have sent, I have stressed that I relinquished my US citizenship 40 years ago. Most of the responses I have received back referred to me as a dual citizen (I’m NOT dual!). My own Conservative MP e-mailed me information on my obligation to file FBAR.
This was after I chided him for not responding to me, while Don Davies,NDP Foreign Affairs Critic, whose riding is 3000 miles from me phoned me personally to reinforce that the NDP would continue to speak out on behalf of Canadians regarding FATCA. Mr. Davies did not refer to me as a dual or as an American.
A few minutes ago, I received a reply to a letter I had sent in January to the Minister of Foreign Affairs (more than five months after my letter was sent!) “regarding Offshore Voluntary Disclosure Initiative.” Hello?!? I didn’t write about OVDI.
I don’t think any of them get it because they don’t want to get it! And, we wonder why “quiet diplomacy” isn’t working?!?
@Blaze
I wish I could tell you something more positive. One problem is you are dealing with a very complex area of tax law unknown to all but a few people. Its not just Flaherty’s fault to speak its long running problem that every Canadian Prime Minister since Pearson should have dealt with.
If you really want to get in touch with someone in the Canadian government dealing with FATCA every day try calling Pascale Dugre-Sasseville at the Canadian Embassy in Washington, DC(Dugre-Sasseville is Flaherty’s person in DC and meets with the IRS and Treasury Department on a weekly basis). As a civil servant I don’t know whether he will talk to you but it might be worth a call or a letter. His phone number is 202-682-1740.
Mailing Address is:
Embassy of Canada
501 Pennsylvania Ave., NW
Washington, DC 20001
According to his Linkedin profile Pascale Dugre-Sasseville actually used to be the chief of Consumer Financial issues at the Department of Finance so I suspect he is well aware of the legal conflicts regarding FATCA.
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/pascale-dugre-sasseville/11/1b7/380
My deepest apologies it is a she not a he.
http://globalrace.info-komen.org/site/TR/GlobalRaceForTheCure/KomenGlobalRace?px=12621043&pg=personal&fr_id=2314
More info including email again it is Ms. Pascale Dugre-Sasseville
Ms. Pascale Dugre-Sasseville
Counsellor (Finance)
Email: pacale.dugre-sasseville@international.gc.ca
She used to work in the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada I have talked about before.
Thanks for the suggestion Tim. I’m getting really tired of writing letters which no one seems to read or care about. That includes politicians, Canadian Bankers Association, Canadian Civil Liberties Association (four months and counting since I contacted them), government officials, etc., etc. etc.
@Blaze
What type of response did you get back from the Privacy Commissioner? My sense if want to do some type of Canada Day blitz perhaps if someone like Pascale Dugre-Sasseville who deals with the likes of Shulman, Emily McMahon, Manual Corwin, and Jesse Eggert on daily basis was bombarded with 50 emails one morning all related to FATCA that might shock the system so to speak(And we definately have her email address). I might type up a draft email to work that others can modify.
@Tim: At first, I got a phone call from the Privacy Commissioner’s Office that FATCA was “not a privacy matter” and it was a result of a trade agreement with the U.S. When I asked about my rights as a Canadian citizen, I was told by the employee that I am still a US citizen (which I am NOT and which the employee had no qualifications to determine). She also told me I should consult a lawyer. It was a lawyer who suggested I write to Privacy Commissioner.
After Hijacked posted a very different response, I wrote again, requesting the correct information in writing. I then received a telephone call from the Director General of Communications for the Privacy Commissioner.
She first apologized for incorrect information, assured me this is a privacy matter and advised the information which Hijacked received was the correct information. She told me two employees in the Privacy Commission Office are monitoring FATCA closely. She further assured me I would receive a letter with the correct information.
Five weeks later, I had no further correspondence, so I contacted them again. A letter was sent to me by courier a couple of days later. The Communications Director again apologized for the incorrect information I received.
The letter also says “We note that many of the Canadian organizations that my voluntarily enter into FATCA agreements are subject to Canadian private-sector privacy legislation, the Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act (PIPEDA). Accordingly, organizations seeking to comply with FATCA requirements would also be expected to comply with their obligations under PIPEDA. Among these obligations are organizations’ requirements to limit the amount of personal information they collect about individuals, obtain consent for collections, uses and disclosures of individuals’ personal information, and safeguard the personal information in their care. For further information on PIPEDA, please consult our website.
The letter went on to discuss draft regulations and said “Until these regulations are finalized and in force, we will not be in a position to fully assess what their impact will be on the privacy and personal information of account holders in Canada.” She then mentioned the fact Ministry of Finance is “engaged in this issue and has undertaken discussions with appropriate U.S. government officials in this matter.”
Just after I received the letter, you posted the TD Waterhouse information and form. I immediately sent it to the Communications Director. She quickly responded that she had forwarded to other officials for review and comment.
I find a word in the letter I received especially intriguing: “voluntarily.” She refers to organizations that “voluntarily” enter into FATCA agreements–and their obligation to comply with PIPEDA in doing so.. My reading of that sentence is that privacy laws trump “voluntary” FATCA agreements. I don’t know if that is just wishful thinking on my part or if that is reality. It makes sense to me that it would be reality because I continue to believe Canadian laws in Canada far outweigh demands of a foreign government. I can’t imagine IRS or a Canadian bank trying to tell a Canadian judge any differently. So, let’s hope the law isn’t changed. If it is, then we have the Charter to fall back on.
I also understand Tiger received a telephone call today about the misinformation she had received by telephone on the same day (and possibly by the same employee)as I did. I understand Tiger should be receiving a letter with the correct information.
It’s one thing to allow a Canadian bank to collect information on a client if that information is necessary. It is completely unacceptable for any information on a Canadian citizen to be sent to a foreign government. The Privacy Commissioner should not allow any information about a Canadian citizen to be sent outside of Canada and its laws by any organization for any purpose period.
@ True North (3.15 pm), re: “When I first called the office of my MP, the first thing I was told was “but you ARE an American” … That in my mind is a big hurdle to jump, to make our fellow Canadians realize that we are not US citizens, we are Canadians!” and @ Blaze (4.02 pm) re: your reply to True North.
This is very disturbing. MPs and their staff should know better. No one has ever questioned my citizenship until recently, since this US mess got in the news. Recently my husband’s accountant and a colleague were certain I was a USC (interesting, that’s not what the US Dept of State told me). Journalists also make this erroneous assumption about US-born persons.
I think it’s because the US-DOS administrative presumption on loss of citizenship changed so long ago (1986) to the current presumption that a person intends to *keep* their US citizenship, that too many people here in Canada today are now seeming to assume that anyone born in the US is a dual citizen.
[Even leaving aside the fact that prior to 1975 one took an oath of renunciation at the citizenship ceremony in Canada, until 1986 it was presumed by US law (no matter what country one became a citizen of) that the USC intended to *terminate* their US citizenship … And the fact that, even though the current presumption is that one intends to *keep* US citizenship, it remains a rebuttable presumption – eg, Petros – one rebuts the presumption by taking the non-US citizenship with the voluntary intent to relinquish the US citizenship.]
If a person wants to be a dual, that’s fine. But we’d better nip in the bud this erroneous assumption that everyone born in the US is a dual.
I recall a few months ago several Brockers were disturbed by a Globe and Mail article and e-mailed the G&M and G&M made some changes to it. I recall in particular where the author had referred to one’s “home country” … we got the G&M to change that to “country of birth.”
Before this FATCA mess started, we lived normal lives. I was a citizen the same as everyone else. I realise that many US politicians and the press there are demonising US-born persons whose lives brought us to other countries. We can’t stop that … and why should we? It’s not our country. It’s not home. But, man, it’s creepy if Canadian officials (or their staff) actually think you’re not-exactly-a-Canadian. This is our country. This is home. We have to nip this in the bud.
@Blaze
I am bit tired today due to family medical issues so I am not posting like my usual self. The fact that the communications director responded back quickly to the TD Waterhouse info was a good sign. Perhaps Tiger when she gets contacted by them should mention TD Waterhouse too. My sense is your email to the Privacy Commissioner is enough to get enforcement action started which is a good thing.