The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
In essence, for most of us it’s the tax preparer fees that are to blame for our inability to maintain US personhood, not the tax. I know from personal knowledge that even those who would clearly qualify for the streamlined procedure aren’t doing so because of the associated cost of doing 5 years of taxes alone. For people with limited or fixed incomes, who wants to go into debt to prove you don’t owe anything? I say blame the Tax Compliance Complex for being the biggest obstacle to compliance for those who can’t afford them and a major contributor for the bulk of the renunciations for those who can!
@ Mona Lisa
That’s exactly how I see it. And so bloody ironic when they go on about people who renounce are the rich. It’s really the middle income and lower income who just can’t afford the “overhead” of US citizenship because compliance takes such a disproportionate part of one’s income. Not to mention if you’re already living in a two-room apartment, you don’t have much leeway to downscale if you want to adjust your budget to afford the “privilege” of US citizenship.
*@Bubble and @Pacific, EXACTLY!!!! It’s not the tax, it’s the damn accounting fees. My accounting bill for 2011 was over $3000 for under $25,000 net income. And even after full consolidation, I’d still be looking at annual costs of at least $2,000-$2,500 for my US tax preparer. That is onerous in proportion to my income, especially when my wages are not guaranteed.
Plus accounting bills will probably continue to rise more than inflation over the years; plus extra complexities with major life events. We little people don’t count. It’s a racket, I’m telling you…
*Not the tax, but…..what about FBAR????
@Woofy
Yes, FBAR and F 8938 aren’t a tax and you could certainly make issue with it when it requires the disclosure of information that goes over and beyond what your home government expects from you. Good one.
@bubblebustin re Q4 CLN numbers. My betting would be we won’t see those until the first week of February, for quarter ending in December. The last report (for Q3) didn’t come out until just after the November election, but I think a lot of that delay was due more to Hurricane Sandy which shut DC down for a couple of days. This time we have the holiday season in late December instead. My sense is that preparation and publication of that list in the Federal Register isn’t exactly a top priority for IRS, nor do I think that many folks in State consider forwarding CLN copies to IRS for that list to be a big priority for them either. I could be wrong, but I’m not bothering to look for the list until we’re into February. I’d be quite surprised to see it anytime in what’s left of January. I also expect the numbers won’t be the real ones; I think a lot of names will show up pretty late (like maybe six or nine months after the actual date) if they show up at all. But we’ll see.
For any persons residing in the UK, I want to be sure you see this from the HMRC as you are assessing your decisions related to relinquishment or renouncing…
For those who think the FATCA $50K threshold is somehow a safe harbor for them as “low risk” account holders who will somehow evade IRS detection, well think again…
*I understand that at the final interview I’ll have to answer and fill out form 4081 which is the Statement of Understanding Concerning the Consequences and Ramifications of Relinquishment or Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship. But in question 2, it asks ‘yes’ or ‘no’ if I have the intention of relinquishing my U.S. citizenship. I wouldn’t know if I should answer ‘yes’ since I want to expatriate; or ‘no’ because I don’t want to relinquish but, rather, renounce. It is worded in such a confusing way. If I answer ‘no’ because I want to renounce vs. relinquish, they may interpret it to mean that I am under duress and not doing this voluntarily. But if I answer ‘yes’, it could be nullifed because i realize I couldn’t relinquish and would thus have to renounce, thus meaning that I couldn’t truthfully answer ‘yes’ to this question. It’s so bloody confusing, almost as though they want to catch people out so as to cancel the renunciation.
I suspect that this question two means that they want to know whether I am wanting to give up my US citizenship but am not sure. Can anyone clarify? @Calgary, I’d imagine that you would have encountered this ambiguous question as I realized you had to renounce vs relinquish.
@ Mona Lisa,
Yes, you have the intention of relinquishing your citizenship.
The mix-up is because renunciation is actually 1 of the 7 methods of relinquishing (Immigration and Nationalities Act, s. 349.)
Renunciation (s.349(a)(5)) is the only method where the relinquishing act takes place at a consulate.
The most common of the other six methods seems to be under s. 349(a)(1), which is naturalising in a foreign country with intent to relinquish. So, that’s gotten to be referred to as “relinquishment” to differentiate it from s. (5) renunciation. Which is confusing because renouncing is also relinquishing. I suppose “naturalising with intent” would be a more specific way to describe s. (1)s, and less confusing, but “relinquishing” is the term that caught on in common speech.
If you’re still not clear, or if I’ve made you more confused, take a look at the link to s.349 of the Act. That should clarify it.
@monalisa,
I am sure that:
is just their oversight; i.e. bad form, not a trick question. All other points show “renounce/relinquish” or “renunciation/relinquishment”. If you are concerned / want to be sure, just add (with your initials) “/renouncing” above their “relinquishing”. In fact, they didn’t accept any of my pre-prepared forms. The Calgary Consulate wisely sent a questionnaire, asking all the relevant questions they wanted answered. All documents were typed and ready for me to sign when I got there. Very efficient, straight-forward, respectful they were.
*@Pacifica and @Calgary, thanks so much for replying so promptly; it seems a lot more clear in my mind! 🙂
Did either of you add an extra page explaining why you wanted to renounce or just leave explanations to a minimum? I also can’t find a copy of the oath I took when I naturalized as a Brit, though wouldn’t think they’d need me to submit 4079 as I’d be renouncing, etc.
I can either return the forms and copied documents by either email or snail mail. They want me to sign and date the Informal Renunciation Acknowledgement; if emailing, wouldn’t know if would be sufficient to print off and scan the completed form with my signature on it, as I obviously can’t sign it otherwise.
Did either of you mail or email your copies of your documents and forms? I also realize that if I mail the copies of the documents that they would be merely photocopied rather than notarized.
@monalisa
My wife and I had the same concern about the renounce/relinquish stuff on 4081 before she went for her relinquishment interview some months ago. After discussing, we printed the form and she went through it and stroke out “renounce” everywhere it appeared, intending to initial the strike-outs at the interview (Petros mentioned in a post a long time ago that’s what he had done, which gave me the idea). When she presented the form at the interview, the vice-consul wouldn’t take it, saying that the form was intended for both purposes and that there was no possible way that anyone would interpret her relinquishment decades ago as a renunciation today (she attached a supporting several-page notarized affidavit to her 4079, which they accepted, and which we’d drafted jointly and had a lawyer look it over before finalizing it). The vice-consul gave her a clean 4081 to sign, which she did, and she got her (relinquishment) CLN several months later with no problems or surprises. It’s a “one-size-fits-all” form; they seem to treat form 4079 the same way, usually asking for it for renunciations as well as relinquishments even though, to my mind at least, 4079 should only be relevant for a relinquishment.
Bureaucratic forms rarely make sense to mere mortals. This isn’t something designed to trip you up, it’s just not a logically-designed form, at least from the viewpoint of a non-lawyer, non-bureaucrat. Don’t worry about it, just sign it at the interview when asked to do so. It shouldn’t be a problem, as Calgary and Pacifica have noted.
Then there’s the “paperburden” estimate printed at the end of 4079, saying it should only take the average person 15 minutes (sic) to fill out the form, including obtaining all the requested documentation. I’d like to know what the author of that estimate was smoking when he/she wrote it …
@ Mona Lisa,
Best not to write a statement of why. No need for it at all.
I suggest having a short and sweet one-sentence answer in your mind, like “simplifying your life” or “attachment to [your country]” if the vice consul asks conversationally. Some ask, some don’t. Your consulate has a good reputation, so if s/he asks, don’t let it spook you.
That shouldn’t be a problem, particularly with a renunciation. Your citizenship document/s should suffice.
The 4079 Q.9(a) asks you to attach a copy of the oath *if you have it*. As for the words, what I put on mine was “I don’t remember the exact words, but through an internet search, I found that the following was the oath used in 1979. … .”
Toronto hasn’t been sending out Informal Renunciation Acknowledgements. Must be one of those things that varies from consulate to consulate. Probably okay to e-mail a scan of the Informal Renunciation Acknowledgment, as it sounds like they said you can return all documents by e-mail (if I understood correctly). Perhaps because it’s an “informal” acknolwdgement, they allow it to be sent as a scan of a signed document. I’d bring the original to the meeting.
Documents: At most consulates, they themselves photocopy your original documents. At any rate, they’ll get to see your originals when you go to your meeting. So, that’s probably why they don’t need you to send notarised copies.
Forms: At Toronto they don’t send the forms in advance, but I got mine off the internet and filled them out and brought them in. It varies. I think Calgary411 said that Calgary fills them out in advance for you (she’s probably replying here right now anyway) and some consulates fill them out when you’re there, etc … it really varies.
*Many thanks, @Schubert and @Pacifica. I think I’ll scan and attach, as emailing is so much quicker. I must admit though, that I’m still so nervous about all this!! There is something so ominously final about it that chills me.
@monalisa,
No extra page of explanation for me, as advised by my US tax lawyer and many others at Isaac Brock. It just isn’t necessary and, if you want tricks that could trip you up, that might be it.
My husband and I brought our completd forms in — the Calgary Consulate didn’t even want to look at them. They acquired all the information they wanted with a questionnaire that was faxed to them before the appointment.
All forms prepared from this information and were ready to sign when we got there.
@monalisa,
Final is good unless you want to go on with the stress you’ve been dealing with since you started commenting here. Do yourself a favour. Be that courageous woman I know you are — you’re worth it!!
+1. It will feel better when it’s done.
*Thanks @Calagary and @Broken Man for your kind words and encouragement. I’ve concluded that expatriating would make it easier to lead a normal life. Sad that it has to be that way though. Good night all, am off to bed…;)
As for the words, what I put on mine was “I don’t remember the exact words, but through an internet search, I found that the following was the oath used in 1979. … .” pacifica777, January 24, 2013 at 4:40 pm.
Would you mind quoting that oath here? Mine was in 1981 and is probably the same.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Citizenship_(Canada)
By the mid-1970s, it was thought that because Canada had a shared monarch the Oath of Citizenship should clarify for new citizens that the fealty they were offering was specifically to the monarch in her capacity as the Canadian head of state, rather than, for example, the head of state of Jamaica or of the United Kingdom. Thus, as part of an amendment to the Citizenship Act in 1977, the words Queen of Canada were inserted after the Queen’s name and the oath was officially named the Canadian Citizenship Oath. This new format maintained the traditional assertion of allegiance to the monarch, but also inserted the name of the country three times in a way consistent with Canada’s status as a constitutional monarchy—i.e., in a monarchy the state is personified, not treated as an abstraction or a corporation.
The Oath of Citizenship is today a legally binding oral and written contract intended to ensure that new Canadian citizens promise to obey the laws and customs of their new country, fulfil their duties as citizens, and recognize the authority of the monarch as the personification of the state and various entities and concepts.
Its current form is as follows:
The equally valid French language version of the oath of citizenship is as follows:
“Je jure fidélité et sincère allégeance à Sa Majesté la Reine Elizabeth Deux, Reine du Canada, à ses héritiers et successeurs et je jure d’observer fidèlement les lois du Canada et de remplir loyalement mes obligations de citoyen canadien.”
Or, the French affirmation:
“J’affirme solennellement que je serai fidèle et porterai sincère allégeance à Sa Majesté la Reine Elizabeth Deux, Reine du Canada, à ses héritiers et successeurs, que j’observerai fidèlement les lois du Canada et que je remplirai loyalement mes obligations de citoyen canadien.”
thx calgary,,, though I was curious to know the exact wording in 1979, which probably is the same as it was in 1981 when I took the oath.
@msd,
It appears it may not have changed since 1977??
My Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States arrived on January 23 and was picked up by me today. The renunciation took place on 2012 November 28 at the Vancouver Consulate. The certificate was accompanied by Form 8854 and 8 pages of instructions for Form 8854, dated Nov 28, 2011 — the final talons, if that is not too predacious a reminder of rancid symbols. Camille D. Hill, Consul in Vancouver, signed the document; however, the upper right corner bears an approval stamp, dated Jan 10, 2013, from Department of State and a string of initials separated by forward slashes: my sentiments exactly.
The Certificate is also accompanied by copies of the Oath/Affirmation business and the Request for Determination of Possible Loss…etc. forms signed on the day of renunciation, together with US and Canadian passport initialed copies and similarly for my Certificate of Canadian Citizenship .
I do believe I am out.
Thank you to everyone who has and will contribute to Isaac Brock, including most especially Calgary 411 and pacifica777. You are all more fun than a barrel of monkeys and a great deal more useful.
Cir
@Cir,
Wow, what a fast turn-around for receipt of CLN for a Vancouver Consulate renunciate. I am so happy that your story is not the same as many others still waiting for the Vancouver Consulate to conclude their cases. Final talons is a good analogy of what you still have to complete, but yes you are out.
Sincere congratulations and, again, our thanks for the very detailed description of your Vancouver experience – yours was the work of one of us in this barrel of monkeys.
PS — I’m sure I speak for Pacifica too when I say it was great we were able to help in your Vancouver experience.
*Looks like Cir renounced (not relinquished). Would a relinquisher still get the IRS 8854 forms to complete?