The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
https://twitter.com/FATCA_Fallout/status/282222372780654593
https://twitter.com/FATCA_Fallout/status/282181689218850817
https://twitter.com/FATCA_Fallout/status/281999567833161729
*schubert Well said again. I have come to conclusion, ( having narrowly escaped the OVDI trap) that the only minnows who will be eaten are those that volunteer by jumping into the driftnet. Editing on a iPad is the sh**s.
*My main concern @Just Me, is that such tweets will only enrage these congressmen and could goad them even more to make renouncing and thus escaping the US tax net more fraught with risk and more difficult. I’m almost of the opinion that it might be better just to slip away quietly. I honestly don’t think they’re going to listen anyway.
@pacifica777
“Has Vancouver simply chosen to give expatriation lower priority than the other consulates do because they feel that expatriation is not so important?”
Maybe, but perhaps they’re just overwhelmed with the thousands of people seeking visas to enter the United States. Judging from what I saw there, that’s the consulate’s major function in Vancouver. Could we instead just be seeing the external symptons of some sort of internal reorganization?
@Roger Conklin,
As to entering the U.S. on a foreign passport, do you know where I can find a reference to the actual law in question? The consular officer neither corrected me nor confirmed my belief that such a law existed, and I didn’t ask because I was focusing on the job at hand.
@all,
It doesn’t surprise me that airlines would enforce this rule more vigorously than border guards. The guards obviously have discretion, just as any police officer does. The airlines, on the other hand, face fines if they guess wrong, so will take the most conservative approach just to stay out of trouble.
Between my first and second appointments, I happened to visit the U.S., and used my Canadian passport for the first time to do so. The guard questioned me closely, among other things asking me how I happened to come to Canada. When the answer started to get boring (it’s a long story), he then asked me if I had ever been arrested.
Was the detailed questioning due to my passport never having been seen before? Was he looking for a reason to exclude me? Was it just random? We’ll never know for sure. But when I try to look at it from his point of view, two things come to mind: First, that must be one of the most boring and frustrating jobs in the world, and second, being a bit random and arbitrary in the questioning sows a little uncertainty in the minds of travelers, which is probably a good tactic. Neither of these implies any particular malice or even arrogance, though.
An interaction at the border can stick in my mind for weeks, but it’s just one of hundreds in a day for the guard. A phrase or comment that I find striking may not actually have any particular signifcance to him.
@David Q
‘perhaps they’re overwhelmed with the thousands of people seeking visas to enter the U.S.’ – I had posted that same thing after my visit to the consulate in September. The size of the line for visas was overwhelming. As I posted before, Vancouver has a very large Asian population of immigrants but also has a very large number of Asian foreign students studying English at our more than 50 “English Language Schools” in the city. Many of them would be required to obtain a visa to enter the United States from Canada, even if it were only for a weekend visit.
You were treated with such respect and fairness at this consulate. I suspect there is some reason this consulate is so slow in processing relinquishment/renunciation appointments, and more to the point, there must be a reason that so few appointments are listed for notarial services. However, having said that, I still wish they would either deal with my 2nd appointment or transfer my file to another consulate.
@ David Q
About the requirement to enter the U S on a US passport, I understand this requirement is written inside the passport; however, having never had one, I don’t know for sure.
@ All
We were returning from New Zealand in November, 2011 with a stop in LA before going on to Canada. All US citizens were required to fill out a form I had never heard of before. At the time, I was just becoming familiar with this whole nonsensical FATCA/FBAR/IRS mess and I didn’t want to jeopardize anything so I just pretended I was the Canadian I am and didn’t volunteer to sign anything.
@David and Tiger,
I don’t think it’s visa-issuing causing Vancouver’s expatriation delay problem as expatriation is handled by the American Citizen Services unit, which does not issue visas. I’ve also noticed at Toronto and Ottawa that the non-ACS line-ups are much, much longer than the ACS line-ups, looked like around 10 to 1 — not exactly scientific data, but it led me to think that visa-issuing is high volume business in general.
I do tend to think the Vancouver problem is probably rooted in some sort of disorganisation, though, because they certainly don’t seem to be malicious.
Percentage foreign born people metro area. Toronto aprx 47%. Vancouver aprx 40%.
Population of consular district. Toronto 11.4 million. Vancouver 4.4 million.
Number of consulate staff, per DFAIT directory. Toronto 35. Vancouver 29.
I forgot to mention before, David, that I think you did a great job in researching and analysing your case prior to going to the consulate. For the most part, almost without exception, I think the consulates are staffed by decent people who want to do the correct thing, but this stuff is pretty new to them, too — so if a person’s case has a point that is not clear-cut, it’s really important to be able to present your position in the context of the law, as you did. I was really happy to read your report because, as I said, I believe the whole point of a CLN is to accurately reflect the truth.
@Duke of Devon
Your comment gave me a chuckle… “Editing on a iPad is the sh**s”
I don’t know if it is just an I-pad thing, or the lack of a key broad, that makes it difficult, but when I decided to get one, I went with the Asus Transformer TF700 with detachable keyboard. Much better for normal editing, with even the ability to work in MS Word and Excel. No, I am not a salesman for Asus, but very happy I did not just jump on the I-pad band wagon. Especially when it comes to editing or deleting pictures. With MicoSD and m ini HDMI on the pad, and Standard SD and USB slots on the keybroad, no PC or Mac syncing necessary.
Ok, end of the off subject commercial! 🙂
@monalisa1776
You are right, the likes of a Schumer or Levin will never listen. I actually doubt they ever read their tweets. They use twitter for broadcasting their own messages. You will find they follow very few others. However, maybe some staffer does read them.
Personally, I am for enraging them, if that is what it takes to get more publicity of the great harm America is doing to itself. I am of the opinion, more publicity, negative or otherwise, is better than silence. At least, out of something negative, a conversation can start, or a journalist might decide to dig more into a story. Silence get us nothing, IMHO, but I understand you might see it differently. 🙂
*@David Querbach; here is the link to the State Department website which states that dual US citizens are required to use US passports when entering and leaving the US:
http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html
Okay, this is my first comment on this thread. Usually I like to read all the posts, and maybe I’ll try but 910 will take me months. I have a query. I’ve been reading that the US exit tax is not applicable to dual citizens who were born a citizen other than US? If yes, why? I would like to know if this is true before I can share what I believe to be a positive development.
@bubblebustin,
I don’t know the WHY answer, but hopefully the information below, re-posted, will help in understanding???
This is from a Forbes article…
http://www.forbes.com/2010/03/23/expatriation-exit-tax-limbaugh-obamacare-personal-finance-robert-wood_4.html
Fortunately not all expatriates face the exit tax; only “covered expatriates” do. Under prior law, you generally had to give notice you were expatriating to trigger the rules. Now if you relinquish your passport or green card, it’s generally automatic. But some expatriates, even under the new law, can escape the exit tax. The financial thresholds (see point five above) can still exempt you. Some people born with dual citizenship who haven’t had a substantial presence in the U.S. and certain minors who expatriated before the age of 18-and-a-half are also exempt. However, those people must still file an IRS Form 8854 Expatriation Information Statement.
The IRS Form 8854 certifies:
(from Mr. Hodgen:
Certification
Specifically, you will be a Covered Expatriate if you:
“[fail] to certify, under penalties of perjury, compliance with all U.S. Federal tax obligations for the five taxable years preceding the taxable year that includes the expatriation date, including, but not limited to, obligations to file income tax, employment tax, gift tax, and information returns, if applicable, and obligations to pay all relevant tax liabilities, interest, and penalties (the “certification test”). This certification must be made on Form 8854 and must be filed by the due date of the taxpayer’s Federal income tax return for the taxable year that includes the day before the expatriation date.”
Prior Five Years
The IRS wants to know that you have tax returns on file and you have paid all of your taxes (all types) for the five years before the year of expatriation. If you do not have tax returns on file, your first job is to get that done, even if you had no requirement to file, because (for instance) you had zero income.
File Form 8854 On Time
The certification must be made on a timely-filed Form 8854.
Form 8854 is filed as an attachment to your expatriation year tax return.
For people living outside the United States, the filing deadline for a U.S. income tax return is usually (but not always) June 15. You can also get a six month extension to file your tax returns. This means if you have a June 15 filing deadline, you can have as late as December 15 to file a timely income tax return.
Absolutely file on time. If you do not, you automatically become a Covered Expatriate.
Someone who is “too poor” to be a Covered Expatriate—even someone who paid no income tax and has a zero net worth—will nevertheless be a “Covered Expatriate” if Form 8854 is filed late.
Certifying What?
The certification requirement applies to all Federal tax obligations, including information returns. Conceptually, then, this means all Title 26 (Internal Revenue Code) obligations are included in the certification.
What about obligations such as Form TD F 90-22.1, reporting signature control or a financial interest in foreign financial accounts? These are obligations under Title 31, and thus arguably someone out of compliance for filing these forms would nevertheless be able to certify compliance with his or her Title 26 obligations. This is an area of speculation and caution is urged until additional guidance is issued by the Internal Revenue Service. My suggestion is that you don’t get clever and attempt to skate past anything. You are trying to make a clean break with the United States.
Or not so hazy:
* http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf
Exception for dual-citizens and certain minors. Dual-citizens and certain minors (defined next) will not be treated as covered expatriates (and therefore will not be subject to the expatriation tax) solely because one or both of the statements in paragraph (1) or (2) above (under Who Must File) applies. However, these individuals will still be treated as covered expatriates unless they file Form 8854 and certify that they have complied with all federal tax obligations for the 5 tax years preceding the date of expatriation as required in paragraph (3) above (under Who Must File).
Certain dual-citizens.
You may qualify for the exception described above if you meet both of the following requirements.You became at birth a U.S. citizen and a citizen of another country and you continue to be a citizen of, and are taxed as a resident of, that other country.You were a resident of the United States for not more than 10 years during the 15-tax-year period ending with the tax year during which the expatriation occurred. For the purpose of determining U.S. residency, use the substantial presence test described in chapter 1 of Pub. 519.Certain minors. You may qualify for the exception described above if you meet both of the following requirements.You expatriated before you were18-1/2. You were a resident of the United States for not more than 10 tax years before the expatriation occurs. For the purpose of determining U.S. residency, use the substantial presence test described in chapter 1 of Pub. 519.
@Calgary411
Thank you. This info is along the lines of what I’ve been reading.
Not that we meet the threshold for an exit tax now, but who knows what the future will bring. So I did a little digging. I was born in the US, but my Canadian mother didn’t register me as a birth abroad in my first two years. After moving to Canada with her, and several years as a landed immigrant, I became a Canadian citizen in 1996. I know that there had been some changes with citizenship criteria in the last few years because my when my son (born in Canada) moved back to Canada from the US he was able to get Canadian citizenship cards for his children who were older than two years of age. It got be wondering if I was born a Canadian, and after some enquiries I was told today that I can still apply for a document that shows I was a Canadian at birth under Bill C-37! My husband was born in Canada so the same exemption applies to him!
*bubblebustin, I’ve was born in the US with Swiss citizenship and learned at age 10 (1982) that I was dual, but I still had to pay the 450 fee and have to file Form 8854. Likewise, FATCA is not an issue for me and I’m very far from having 2 million in assets, but much could change in the next 50 years. I am now happy to no longer be a US citizen. It was a difficult and sad decision, but I don’t regret it. I am not compatible with paperwork and am much happier with less of it.
@Swisspinoy
I’m happy you’re finding peace with your newfound freedom. I’m sure many will be encouraged by it.
I know there’s no hope for me getting around the $450 exit fee, but whether I’d be subjected to the exit tax may be a factor in my future decision making. I’m still somewhat confused about the dual nationality exemption on the exit tax. Does having two nationalities from birth require a tie breaker when it comes to the exit tax, thus a substantial presence in the US is necessary for the exit tax to apply? I’m not able to find much for info and not great at reading statutes. I too do not meet the asset threshold for the exit tax, but knowing I may not be subjected to it ever would be a relief to me.
*@bubblebustin, There are certain exclusions from the Exit Tax for US citizens who were born with dual citizenship in another country Here is a link with a brief explanation: http://renunciationguide.com/Exit-Tax-on-Renunciants.html.
It is a good idea to get good professional advice if you fall into this category. As I recall, there is also an exclusion from the US Exit tax for assets which were owned when the person renouncing became a US citizen when the person born with a foreign citizenship renounces, but this link does not provide much in the way of details.
@Roger Conklin
Yes, I will most definitely get professional advice when it comes time to renouncing. A good professional will know what I discovered on my own, that due to a recent change in citizenship laws in Canada, I am in fact deemed a Canadian citizen at birth even though I was required to naturalize in 1996, as was the law then.
bubblebustin – Re yr Dec 28 ? on born-dual exemption from covered status – see 360ff here
*I have a question: What 4 page form does one have to fill out to obtain a Certificate of Loss of Nationality and where does one obtain this form?
Thanks, Chris
@Chris, please see My April 7 visit to the US consulate.
Hi Chris,
It’s this one DS-4079. Request for Determination of Possible Loss of US Citizenship.
Also if you go to page 4 of the Consulate Report Directory, you’ll find links to the other 3 forms used for expatriation. If you’re doing a relinquishment, then it’s only 2 other forms as you don’t need the oath of renunciation form, of course.
It’s good to have the 4081 (Statement of Understanding of Consequences) filled out in advance (saves them work). Ditto, the 4080, Oath of Renunciation.
I didn’t fill out the 4083 (Certificate of Loss of Nationality) in advance, though, as most of that needs to be filled in by the consulate anyway.
It’s always good to have the 4079 filled out in advance as it has four pages of questions and requires dates to be filled in.
@Chris — There are others here who have been through the process successfully who can answer your question so I will leave that to them. For a general guide to renunciation this might be a good resource for you …
http://renunciationguide.com/
Just in:
Yahoo News: Depardieu, in tax fight, gets Russian citizenship
http://news.yahoo.com/depardieu-tax-fight-gets-russian-citizenship-115743682.html
The world sure has turned upside down from the Cold War era when so-called free market America and NATO were locked in an ideological power struggle with communist Soviet Union and the Warsaw Pact.
Depardieu serves as an example that people are now starting to run in the other direction across what was once called the Berlin Wall.
From my experience and understanding it is now required to enter/leave the US on a US passport. As a Canadian (regrettably dual) I have always traveled on my Cdn passport until I was flagged by Customs (US birth) and redirected to DHP secondary. There they insisted I must get a US passport to enter the US. I returned again and the Customs guy swiped my Cdn passport and saw the DHS attached report and asked “have you your US passport yet?” I lameley answered “it was in process. After fearing that I would be arrested the next time I entered the US, and the next time being “in transit” between Mexico and Canada at the Houston airport with my three dual Cdn-Mex kids, I decided I should get a US passport and not risk anything (and deal with it later). I asked Canada and they cynically commented that “it’s the US business”, and since I have researched and found posted on a Cdn govt website that people who do not use a Cdn passport when entering a foreign country risk abrogating Cdn consular services in that country. Catch 22.
*@msd; I am sure that it is absoutely correct that with a US passport you not only risk but absoutey will not receive any Canadian consular servces if you should have any “problems” while in the US. As far as US law is concerned your dual Canadian citizenship is totally irrelevant. The exact same situation exists for the dual US-Canadian citizen who is in Canada and gets into trouble. He can expect to receive zero US consular services whie in Canada, even though he may have entered Canada using his US passport. US passports carry a printed warning of this fact of life for persons who are dual nationals.
The “other” nationality of a dual national is irrelevant when in either country, except for taxation obligations when the US dual national is in the other country. In this case his tax obligations are the same as if he is in the US. You cannot hide behind dual nationality when it comes to avoiding US tax obligations on your world-wide income.