The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
Hi folks!
I can happily report that I received my CLN in the mail on Monday 17 December, 2012. (I previously reported on my first and second visits to the Vancouver Consulate, which currently appear on pages 52-55 in the Consulate Report Directory.)
Complete Timeline:
First visit: July 2012
Second visit: September 2012
CLN received: December 2012
Based on the recent information on this website it appears as though I am one of the lucky ones who got in just in time at the Vancouver consulate! I’m sorry to hear about the delays for people currently trying to get in. I have several friends and family members who could be affected by this.
My CLN arrived as promised in the signature required Xpresspost envelope I provided to them. However it came in 3 months, instead of the “possible” (or “up to”) 12 months they said it could take. I’m not complaining obviously!
Thank you to everyone on this website! Feel free to ask me any questions if there is something I did not explain that would be useful.
… and now, to prep my 2012 US taxes!
Congratulations, John Smith. I think you are correct, you seem to have had your appointment prior to the huge backlog that Vancouver seems to be presently experiencing. It must be a great feeling.
John Smith,
My (our) congratulations. Two Vancouver CLNs in one day and both earlier than expected. I’m so glad that both you and SadCdn beat it through to the end before all of the delays we now see at the Vancouver Consulate. Thanks for being part of the compilation to help others along their way. Again, so happy for you!
Yesterday I received my CLN for a relinquishment reported to the Vancouver consulate. As others have mentioned, the package included the CLN itself, a copy of the DS-4079, copies of the supporting documents, and an IRS form 8854 and its instructions.
As background, I was born in the United States, then immigrated to Canada in 1980. I became a Canadian citizen in 2010 with the intent to relinquish my U.S. citizenship.
I booked my first appointment via the Consulate’s web interface in the last week of August 2012, initially for an early-October date. Seeking a “better deal”, I re-checked the appointment calendar every day or so, looking for a cancellation. Over the Labour-day weekend, I found an empty appointment for September 6, and cancelled my October booking in favour of the earlier date.
My first appointment went very smoothly, since I had filled out all the forms ahead of time and had all my documents ready. (U.S. passport, Social Security Card, Record of Landing in Canada, copy of the Canadian citizenship oath, Canadian citizenship certificate and card, Canadian passport, DS-4079, last address in the U.S., dates of residence in the U.S., and a prepaid ExpressPost envelope.) The only document I didn’t have was my birth certificate, which turned out not to be needed since I had a current U.S. passport. The clerk copied all but the Record of Landing and Social Security Card, so perhaps they were not required either.
When filling out the DS-4079, I had taken care to answer all of the questions carefully and completely, which I believe greatly speeded the process. The only difficulty was that I had used my U.S. passport to enter the States after my naturalization in Canada. I explained to the consular officer that I did this only because I believed that I was required by U.S. law to do so until I received my CLN. He promised to seek a ruling from Washington, hopefully before my second appointment, on whether I could simply report my relinquishment, or would need to renounce. The key question was my not my actual use of the U.S. passport, but my intent in using the passport (in other words, was I claiming the right as a U.S. citizen to enter the States, or was I simply trying to comply with the law as I understood it).
At the end of the first interview, the clerk booked my second appointment for September 28.
I went to the second interview ready to renounce if necessary, but the officer had in the meantime received word from Washington that my use of the U.S. passport as described above would not interfere with simply reporting the relinquishment which occurred when I became a Canadian citizen. I swore out the various forms and that was that.
On each visit to the consulate, I was first seen by a clerk who examined my documents and ensured they were ready to evaluate. Shortly thereafter (perhaps a half hour), I was seen by a consular officer. Both were entirely professional and courteous, and were completely familar with the forms and procedures. Other than a single question by the officer about why I was relinquishing (the answer for which he simply typed into the computer), there was no comment made on why or whether I should give up my U.S. citizenship.
So to summarize:
Booking: September 1 (approximately)
First appointment: September 6 (about 1 week wait)
Second appointment: September 28 (about three weeks wait)
Receipt of CLN: December 19 (just less than three months wait)
Judging from the experience of people applying even slightly later in the year, I can see how extraordinarly fortunate I was to slip inside the magic Fall-2012 window. In the time since my appointments, I’ve occasionally peeked at the consulate booking calendar and watched in dismay as the wait time for the first appointment went from six weeks (as was the case at my first attempt) to six months or more. The last time I looked, the calendar showed no appointment times available at all.
One can see from my experience that it is indeed possible for the Vancouver consulate to process a relinquishment quickly and efficiently. Why this should be so noteworthy is a question that’s difficult to answer from the outside.
I owe a debt of gratitude to the members of the Isaac Brock Society, especially the contributors to the consulate directory. Without the experiences recorded there, I might very well have missed an important document or question, leading to a very different result.
Again, thank you everyone here for your help and support.
(Please feel free to post this note to the consulate report directory.)
@David Querbach,
Congratulations. Your’s is, I believe, the speediest relinquishment reported from the Vancouver consulate. Wow – CLN received in under 3 months after the 2nd appt.
I am, unfortunately, one of the Vancouver reportees that seem to have been caught in a quagmire. My initial appointment was one week prior to your 2nd appt. At that appointment, I was told that had all of my documents been accepted at that time, they would have booked the 2nd appt. However, it was necessary for me to obtain two new documents – and although they were received and sent to the consulate in less than 3 weeks, I am caught in a back-log. I hope the New Year will bring some good news for me, because quite frankly I have grown very disheartened.
Again, Congratulations. What a nice Christmas present.
@tiger,
I’ve only started following this thread recently, but with all the CLN’s coming in from Vancouver in the last week, it seems that the earlier speculations on “batching” at Vancouver may be true. That, plus the current six-month wait for first appointments, makes me think that Vancouver is, as we computer types say, “wedged” (meaning fatally jammed, in the machinery sense).
Up-thread a bit someone was suggesting that you start a completely new process at another consulate. It sounded like good advice to me (if you can afford the time and money to do so).
If no, I really feel for you. This whole process is difficult enough when it goes smoothly. To get stuck in limbo must be maddening.
@ David Querbach
Excellent news about your CLN arriving. Congratulations! I’ve used your
consumervictim alert a few times now in e-mails. The style seemed a good fit when attempting to stir some interest in some so-called consumer watch dogs. So far only one perfunctory woof back but that’s better than nothing I guess. I’m ready to picket a US consulate at this point. I’d carry a box full of tax forms instead of a picket sign. No, that would be too heavy, so I’d have to haul them in a little red wagon.@David Q
In the New Year I will most definitely consider going to another consulate – either Calgary or Toronto, as they both seem to require only one appointment and from all reports, they treat people with respect. It might be necessary to officially have my file moved to another consulate as my forms and documents are on file in Vancouver. Something is obviously ‘broken’ here. As has been reported on IBS, Ms. S. Johnson from Ottawa is attempting to do something about the backlog in Vancouver.
Everyone gets older each day that goes by, but quite honestly, this whole experience has aged me more than a year – I honestly could say that I have aged 5 years in the past one year.
Em, actually picketing a consulate isn’t a bad idea. Nothing draws media attention like a picket line or rally. You’d really need a crowd, but it would be interesting to see what might happen if a video of Americans picketing Canadian consulates to demanding the right to relinquish/renounce showed up on YouTube. Just a thought.
@David Q – Congratulations! Wow, there really is a wave of CLNs coming in from Vancouver! Like you, I feel so very, very fortunate I entered that process during the magic window of opportunity. It seem like July, Aug, and & Sept were the magic months.
@Em,
I have some experience picketing a U.S. consulate. Back in the fall of 1962, during the Cuban missle crisis, I was a student at University of Toronto. One of my profs was outraged that there were “Communists” picketing the U.S. Consulate on University Avenue. He suggested to a large group of us, who were American students, that it would be a good idea to ‘picket the pickets’. It did make a good picture in the newspapers.
Just let me know where and when – I will be there.
@ tiger
My only experience is an anti-war demonstration but this is an injustice too and it deserves to have some attention. Fubar Day (6/30) comes to mind as a good date or maybe Diaspora Tax Day (6/15). Not July 4th though because that might suggest anti-Americanism. It’s about the insane and imperialistic US tax system. Calgary is closest but Vancouver is doable too. If Flaherty throws us under the bus then the rally might have to form outside of Harper’s constituency office too. Perhaps we could “wear” a large bus replica plastered with our messages — feet only showing to assure our anonymity. 😉
*Have emailed the US embassy in London on their special email address two days ago but still haven’t heard back. Wonder if it could be Jan (if ever( before I hear anything due to Christmas coming up.
I just hope they’re not going to be obstructionist and start ignoring emails, etc Such a nerve-wracking process…so I have truly let the cat out of the bag so no turning back now…*gulp*
Congratulations, David!
Thanks very much for your detailed report which I’ll add to the directory.
Wow, your experience brings up some very interesting points.
(1) Intent/Use of theUS passport.
Since the determination is to be made on the balance of probabilities, I had wondered if the only indicator weighing towards non-relinquishment was use of a US passport to enter the US — and this was done because the person was told they had to — if indeed one could successfully contend relinquishment had occurred.
Then, this week a Brocker’s sibling inHalifax with a similar set of facts received their CLN. And now your experience corroborates this, referring to a ruling from DC in fact. So, it’s clear this factor is not necessarily fatal to a relinquishment.
(2) The officer atVancouver sought a ruling – and sought it quickly (Vancouver is currently moving extremely slowly, as we know)
First off, I commend this officer because as far as I’m concerned the point of a CLN is to document the truth. It’s not to play games or advance one’s personal or perceived US agenda at the cost of the truth, as may be the case at one other location.
This officer atVancouver was so concerned about the truth that s/he didn’t jump to a conclusion, but sought guidance from HQ to ensure that the CLN would reflect the legally correct date. It’s not simply that I agree with the decision, which I do — the important thing is that the officer wanted to do it accurately, not impose something false.
That’s really doing a proper job on two counts:
– Legally: the officer wanted to follow the law – not guess at the law or ignore it because s/he didn’t like it.
– Customer Service: the officer wanted to do the best job for the customer, which meant doing some extra work to find out if it was appropriate to make the decision which the customer desired – not to be lazy or to promote some agenda.
(3) It still remains – what is going on atVancouver ?
Your description of the staff as “professional and courteous” is heard time and time again aboutVancouver . There is no apparent animosity at this consulate. And for several months last summer (you seem to have caught the tail end of that window), Vancouver was running smoothly and efficiently.
Now, they’re stonewalling people. The classic case is Tiger, who hasn’t been a USC for over 40 years, complete with oath of renunciation upon naturalisation and impeccable post-relinquishment conduct, whose life is in turmoil without a CLN, and they want her to reflect for another year before letting her sign her 4079 &4081! It makes no sense and it’s a cruel situation to have to live indefinitely in this stressful chaos.
Sure the Vancouver Consulate is busy. The workload of all consulates has been heavily impacted by the expatriations. ButVancouver is no more overloaded than any other consulate. It’s resource allocation and priorities. I’m preparing an article on this, based on comparative statistics regarding population of cachement areas, estimated number of USCs in the district, number of consulate staff, etc.
HasVancouver simply chosen to give expatriation lower priority than the other consulates do because they feel that expatriation is not so important? If they do that, they may inadvertently be making it very important.
On both this and other threads, people have recently been discussing picketing a consulate. As well Vancouver Brockers are already planning to get together (currently for a picnic) at a local park, which happens to be across the street from theVancouver consulate.
*@David Quarterbach; You were following the law when you entered the US with your US passport subsequent to becoming a naturalized Canadian citizen, and I am surprised that the consul had to “consult” with anybody in order to cofirm this.,
The law is clear and unambiguous. If you hold US citizenship you must use a US passport to enter and leave the US. You would likely have been denied boarding with a Canadian passport showing you were born in the US, unless you also presented a CLN,
The Lord Mayor of London chose not to travel to the US rather than take out a US passport when he wasn denied boarding at Heathrow for this reason. And presenting a passport issued by a country that does not have a visa waver agreement with the US the person will be denied an US visa by the US consulate in the foreign passport. If such a person with dual citizenship wants to travel to the US he must take out a US passport. That may not be easy today for persons who are not up to date with with their US tax obligations.
What surprises me is the apparent loose enforcement of this by the border patrol at the US-Canadian border. There is no special provision in this law, that I amn awaren of, which would allown US-Canadian dua citizens to enter the US using a Canadian passport.
Congrats on receiving your CLN, David Querbach! Freedom.
@Roger Conklin, while I do not disagree with your comments concerning difficulty in entering the US with a foreign passport showing a US place of birth, it has not been my experience at all. I have traveled quite a bit from Canada to the US by (car and air) and have only been asked once at the border about my Yonkers, NY birthplace. Everything else has been polite, friendly and clear sailing. Now, with my bright and shiny CLN, it should be even easier! 🙂
One thing that I find very annoying is the apparent freedom in applying immigration policy. Each border agent seems to have very wide flexibility in interpreting the “rules”. Very troubling!
*We got our first Canadian passports 4 years ago. Took a trip south and the first thing the border guard said after seeing our new passports was “Oh, you’re dual citizens huh?” Followed by a rather reluctantly uttered permission to proceed and a warning that we had better have US passports next time.
@Pacifica,
Excellent analysis and comments above regarding David’s experience at Vancouver consulate. I, too, was impressed with the fact that they followed through for a ruling on the use of his U.S. passport. As you said, it is obvious that they wish to do the right thing and it does not appear obstructive.
As I have said before, I would love to know why some of us have to wait so long for our second appointments. The stress of this is agonizing. I dream about it in my sleep and while awake it is always on my mind. I want my life back!
Hopefully, early in the New Year there will be some news of changes at Vancouver consulate.
*Roger..’been using aCanadian passport with US birthplace for 32 years. 2 comments in that time (both friendly). ” did you know you could still be a US cit . If you wish?”
Answer… “Thank you very much”. That was all.
*@Duke of Devon, thanks for sharing your experience. Yes, you can continue to be a US citizen if you wish, and as a matter of fact in the eyes of the IRS you are a US citizen even if you do not wish – unless and until you formally termininate the citizenship relationship by formally relinquishing or renouncing it before a US consular official outside of the US.
It does mystify me why the border patrol personnel at vehicular crossing locations apparently are given much more liberty in interpreting whether you should, as a US citizen, be permitted to enter the US whereas Airlines can be and are subject to stiff fines and/or penalties if they allow a US citizen to board a flight to the US with only a foreign passport, without a CLN, if it is clear by the information in that foreign passpart that you were born in the US.
Does anyone have an explanation for this?
Roger, I don’t see how anyone can have an explanation for this. Perhaps Mr. Mopsick, who maintains that the law is the law is the law? I just commented on this on this thread: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/12/19/democrats-abroad-are-like-the-stepford-wives/.
@Bruce, border guards are given pretty much the authority to interpret as they please. When Before I moved up to Canada, my husband spent a lot of time on the phone with this and that immigration official and they basically told him that anything could happen at the border. Immigration in Canada is also a bit non-committal when explaining the rules, which makes one wonder what purpose the rules actually serve when officials at CIC and border guards can just make it up as they go.
Once my daughter and I have our Canadian passports (by fall I am hoping), we will only be traveling on them and the US ones are history – even though she is not old enough to ditch yet and I am not allowed to do it for her (which really pisses me off). If there are any questions at the border (we visit family once a year), I plan to say that she is my daughter and she will travel on the same passport I do. I am her mother. Not the USG.
@Duke of Devon,
…or, you are a US citizen (until we tell you you are not).
As I see it, one of the main purposes of this site is to give others the backbone to just say “Thank you very much.” Some like me, are not quite as astute as others and may be intimidated into obtaining that US passport. I most certainly do not want others to make the same stupid mistakes that I did.
Pacifica and tiger,
I can only echo your comments and the New Year wish that things will change for procedures at the Vancouver Consulate.
Thank you for your analysis on David’s Querbach’s experience there.
And, while I’m at it, Congratulations, David Querbach, on completion of your Vancouver experience. Your success and receipt of CLN is now etched in the growing database for Renunciations and Relinquishments reported to Isaac Brock.
(And thanks for your permission to use your words, with acknowledgement of where they came from. I have taken that opportunity in several of my recent correspondences with government officials.)
As I’ve noted on the Maple Sandbox site, where I started a whole thread on the issue of US border crossings:
I’ve had a Canadian passport that always has shown US birthplace, since 1975. It’s the only passport I’ve ever had. I also have a CLN (since late 1976, but it wasn’t until the past year that I remembered it and have been keeping a photocopy with my passport, just in case). Since 1978 I’ve flown into the US from Canada probably an average of once every other year, and driven into the US probably an average about the same, total of more than 30 border crossings at least. I’ve always shown my Canadian passport when flying in, and also when driving in once showing ID became a requirement. I have NEVER been challenged on this, nor has my wife (Canadian passport since 1977, has a CLN but didn’t get one until this last August). Once when we both were driving in, showed our Cdn passports, a border guard said “you know you can come back now if you want to,” by which we thought he meant all was forgiven (we’re both Vietnam War refugees). We said thanks for the tip (and muttered but no thanks not interested ever, after we were out of earshot). We do have friends who’ve been challenged at the border. One caved in and got a US passport; the other has been adament she’s only a Canadian and has refused to get a US passport, on the two occasions she was challenged when driving in, and has subsequently crossed the border multiple times with no problem (not even after one guard visibly made some sort of entry into his computer). BTW the friend who did cave in was challenged at an airport. So there’s no consistency, but also this is (so far) something that hasn’t been enforced at all most of the time and seems to be at the sole discretion of a border guard who was in a grumpy mood that day probably.
I’ve heard it may be a different story flying into the US from Europe, but no Canadian or US airline (I’ve flown both) has ever said “boo” about my Canadian passport, when I checked in for a flight to the US. In more than 34 years now. It’s likely the border people have a record of my CLN on their computer system, but I very much doubt any of the airlines have access to that, certainly not until quite recently if they do at all.
Explanation I’d offer — the border guards have better things to worry about and don’t take that requirement seriously. Just because a law is on the books doesn’t mean it will always (or even often) be enforced. Depends on resources, priorities, how long the lineup is, whether some auditor happens to be watching you that day, or whatever. See also multiple instances, good and bad, on this website re how US vice consuls are handling relinquishment and renunciation applications. I’m sure this isn’t the only area of jurisprudence where this happens. Talk to any city police officer about enforcement, or not, of certain kinds of traffic violations and under what conditions and workloads and what else they’ve just been asked to respond to.
What odds do you want to give that the IRS is ever going to get uniform enforcement of FATCA by FFIs, IGA or not, announcement of final rules or not? Who’s going to audit that nonsense and where are the staff and money coming from to do the audits, as the US slowly goes bankrupt or topples off the fiscal cliff? But that’s a whole ‘nother thread about what central HQ bureaucrats think is real and what the real world actually is like … BTW I’m a long-served retired federal Canadian bureaucrat who used to spend a lot of time visiting regional and local offices on behalf of HQ, always listened to the folks in the trenches and did what I could to help them cope with some of the idiots I worked with in Ottawa, and some of the stories I came across about “how the manual says we do this” and “how we actually do this because it’s the only way in hell it can possibly work given our resources” would curl your hair as it curled mine. Not for this thread though.