The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
Calgary411 –
Thanks for considering those suggestions and so quickly putting out version 2. Here is anticipating that major interest will focus on:
• Time required to wait for first appointment
• Time gap between first and second appointment
• Time gap between second appointment and receipt of CLN
The item at Hodgen cited by pacifica777 suggests that this compilation may become a power tool to hold the US more accountable for its processing of renunciants and relinquishers.
So, further suggestions –
(1) Three adjacent date columns would allow easy scanning for time spreads and would also eliminate need for any notes related to Appt#1 / Appt#2 / CLN
(2) Month is a large quantity of time to track time gaps, but certainly better than the quarterly data US provides for renunciations – any chance for weeks or days?
(3) Simple presence or absence of the data would indicate 1 or 2 appointments and would also eliminate the need for a separate column to tally that information – excuse the repeat, but that redundancy is not needed
(4) Still recommending to split those couples into separate lines and link with a note – eg “#1 and #2 are couple” as notes on both lines
All in the interests of (a) getting at the data of interest (b) having a robust structure that would scale up if you have hundreds of cases to record (c) keeping the bones as bare as possible to reduce data inconsistency (d) being able to migrate more easily off of pdf if that proves necessary. (For this application, technically speaking, pdf is clunky proprietary software that is straitjacked to a presentation function. You have aready encountered limitations in the “free” version!)
@nobledreamer: You’re *entitled* to the flag. Cite 7 FAM 1262.3(b) if a flag is not provided.
The Toronto one is tucked away in a corner of the room – to your right as you renounce, which may or may not be symbolic.
@usxcanada, @All
I’ve just inserted new version of the pdf, incorporating the following changes:
usx canada’s further suggestions –
(1) Three adjacent date columns would allow easy scanning for time spreads and would also eliminate need for any notes related to Appt#1 / Appt#2 / CLN
HAVE COLUMNS LABELLED — REQUEST, 1ST APPT, 2ND APPT, CLN DATE
(2) Month is a large quantity of time to track time gaps, but certainly better than the quarterly data US provides for renunciations – any chance for weeks or days?
IT WAS DECIDED TO STAY WITH MONTHS TO REDUCE CLUTTER / EASIER TO DIGEST QUICKLY / SPECIFIC DATE MIGHT BE AN IDENTIFIER FOR THOSE WHO WISH TO REMAIN ANONYMOUS – We could make comment in NOTES.
(3) Simple presence or absence of the data would indicate 1 or 2 appointments and would also eliminate the need for a separate column to tally that information – excuse the repeat, but that redundancy is not needed
DONE
(4) Still recommending to split those couples into separate lines and link with a note – eg “#1 and #2 are couple” as notes on both lines
DONE
(For this application, technically speaking, pdf is clunky proprietary software that is straitjacked to a presentation function. You have aready encountered limitations in the “free” version!)
IF THERE IS SOMEONE ELSE THAT HAS ADOBE PROFESSIONAL AND COULD POST, THAT WOULD WORK, EXCEPT WE WANTED TO KEEP PERSONS HANDLING THIS TO A MINIMUM TO MINIMIZE THE CHANCE FOR ERRORS. IF THERE IS A FREE APPLICATION, FINE – OTHERWISE MY $$ ARE GOING ELSEWHERE / I WOULD NOT USE IT FOR ANYTHING ELSE – I’M RETIRED.
Comments on whether this pdf will work or not?
Thanks again, everyone!
I relinquished in Dec 2011 in Toronto. Became a Canadian in 94. I was in and out in an hour. I had done the paperwork from the online forms before I went in. The staff was very pleasant and helpful. Told that the CLN would be at least six months. This was not really a hard decision because I thought I had ceased to be an American 17 years ago. I have recently retired and would have spent a lot of time and money visiting the U.S. particularly in the winter. Given the hostility toward expat’s, my visits and spending there will be minimal.
Thanks, expat94. I’m glad it went so well for you!
We’ll enter your information and look forward to you telling us you’ve received that important CLN.
@Calgary411
Another interesting thing to add might be whether someone has found their name on the Federal Register “name and shame” and during what time period/release.
@Tim
That would be great to track, given their “low” numbers / thanks — we could put that info as a comment in the NOTES column for now.
calgary411 – The data is really looking good. And revised so fast. The presentation and formatting always showed quality. The base you have established should accommodate a fair bit of data addition. You are absolutely correct to aim to minimize fingers in the pie. Unless the task is overwhelming and demands multiple involvement, even two fingers will increase inconsistency. If the software you have is causing difficulties, look at using tables in Word and then saving the file as pdf from MSWord when you want to post publicly. But if you don’t already have that ubiquitous proprietary package, it’s not cheap either.
Roughly speaking, there are three scales: small, medium, large. Small, you can use almost any software. Medium, high hundreds and low thousands of entries, life grows harder with “wrong” software. Higher thousands and upwards, everything could fast mush into useless stew without good principles and solid processing capacity.
Present setup should be good till Brock well exceeds the official quarterly record for renunciations! By the way, that renunciation data is ugly. I took one brief run at amassing and reorganizing. It appears that http://renunciationguide.com has already done that work in the back room. I’d even argue that some U.S. authorities have deliberately subverted the “name and shame” mandate – protecting the rich by irregularly dispersing dirty data in an inhospitable format.
@usx,
I’ve got an excel file with two sheets, essentially the same except one without the names and one with plus a little more in the notes. I save the ‘no name’ excel sheet as a pdf file. It seems to be working OK at this stage of the game.
Pacifica777 is also compiling additional detail from the comments people are making. It’s good to have two sets of eyes for this as it’s so easy to read over a mistake.
Thanks again for helping with this.
@calgary411
I am not sure why, but I am unable to open the “US Relinquishment Renunciation File. I am not the “sharpest knife in the drawer” when it comes to computers, so problem is likely with me and my computer
I went to the consulate in Vancouver today to begin the relinquishing process. I was informed I would need a second appt and some additional information. The staff were polite and professional. I was informed it could take a year for the CLN. I’ll wait.
The woman ahead of me was applying for American citizenship for her Canadian born child. He stood beside her smiling happily, oh if only he knew what he was in for.
@ over the hedge
As Vancouver would also be my consulate, I am curious how long did you have to wait for the appointment. You said you wished to begin the “relinquishing process” and that they needed more info. What information were they requesting? Did you perform an expatriating act in the distant past and thus you hope to be able relinquish rather than renounce?
I contacted the Vancouver consulate today to make an appointment for relinquishment and got one for next Friday (8 days from now). I tried to arrange to have only one appointment in my email but the response was that I must have two. They only want me to bring evidence of U.S.citizenship (passport) and evidence of other citizenship to the first appt. So it looks like they plan to give me the forms to fill out when I go for the first appointment to take back for the second appt. I assume it won’t take too long to get the second appt. since the first one was this quick.
The consulate in Vancouver has a swift appt. turn around I scheduled just last week. The first appt. is to establish if you have an legit claim to relinquish. They ask the usual questions and ask to see your documentation of relinquishing act. In my case I was a federal employee with a signed oath to Canada and Queen. But the copy of my oath is not certified so I have to make a request probably at some cost to the Canada archives for a certified copy. Also my birth certificate has to be re-issued. The consulate sent me away with the relinquishment package and some other material to fill in that must be mailed back then another appointment will be scheduled.
@tiger,
I don’t know why you wouldn’t be able to open. Had you been able to open previously? It’s a link that you should just have to click on. It works here. Is anyone else having problem opening the link?
Oops! I just noticed that I wrote I made an appointment to “relinquish” but I meant “renounce”. It was late late night when I posted!
Thanks, Ladybug. I’ll change that on the database.
@Calgary411
Unless the link shows up as: (www….) like that, I have always had trouble opening the links as at the top of this page. As I said, I am not the most ‘computer literate’ person and I suspect it is something in the settings on my computer. Disappointing for me.
I’ll ask Petros. I don’t know — I’m not at all technical on why or why not it works.
The pdf link is uploaded from my computer as “US RELINQUISHMENT RENUNCIATION.m2”
(I actually put the complete path, but it doesn’t show up above in the comment.)
OK — the dirty deed is done — sort of.
Got to the Vancouver consulate at 9 am for a 9:30 appointment, and had to navigate a huge line (outside) of people lining up for visa applications. Security folks were pretty helpful, and after standing outside (my wife was freezing) for about 40 minutes, we got in through security and up to the 20th floor. Security folks were all pleasant and efficient.
After about 5 minutes, we (yes, they let me in too) fronted up to a consular clerk (?) who was wearing a sweater that said CANADA across the back in big letters, and he proceeded to look at all the documents for a relinquishment.
1. He wasn’t interested in the statutory declaration, never looked at it.
2. He looked at the two forms and said they were very old forms (I downloaded them from the DOS website) and proceeded to transfer the info onto his own form. And he was super helpful — because under the question about relinquishing with intent, I had put in language that she understood that to take out Canadian citizenship was an automatic revocation. He said that’s irrelevant; so he changed it to state categorically that it was her intent to relinquish (“otherwise they might not approve it,” he said).
Then he looked at passports and citizenship documents and asked if my wife had her Canadian citizenship card. She didn’t bring it. He said THAT is considered the “official” document, and the piece of paper isn’t. He intimated that this is a Canadian statement, not US. And it puzzled him too, She dug up the card (at home) and will bring it the next time. So be advised — bring both of those citizenship pieces if you have them.
Once he was finished with his paperwork — and copied all the docs (wanted landed immigrant paper too), he then handed it all over to the Consul, who then spent about 20 minutes questioning my wife about her intent — making sure this was completely voluntary, and he made sure she understood the consequences of her actions. I was asked to step away during this process — he said quite freely that part of his job is to make sure she isn’t being coerced.
Both of these guys asked when was the last tax return filed, but didn’t go any further down that road. And she was asked several times if she has(d) a US passport (she never did). At the end of the consular interview, he said the application is now filed, and in two months we’ll get a call for a second interview — again, he said, to make sure that this action is being taken voluntarily and with full consideration of the “irrevocable” nature of the act. He indicated that after the second interview, it would take about a year to get the CLN.
Bottom line — as long as she has taken no action at all that would indicate a desire to retain US citizenship, the application should be approved. That won’t be a problem.
That was it — took about 90 minutes once we were through the door, and the experience was pretty benign. Those guys all know what’s going on here, and he as much as said they’ve had a flood of these applications — that’s why it takes two months for the 2nd interview and a year to get the CLN.
Coming home, I didn’t know whether to congratulate my wife or offer condolences. As much as the US is bringing all this S**t upon itself, it’s not easy to go in and specifically repudiate your birthplace. There’s both a sense of relief, and a sense of loss. Now we wait.
Given it will take a year to get the CLN, I’m a little concerned about trying to cross the border in the interim. But, to be honest, I don’t think the CLN is going to be of any help in the long run if the IRS thinks it has a claim on her money. Itv still might be too dangerous.
Well done Arrow. I’m sure your wife is feeling some relief, but she must be frustrated that she has to go back.
Interesting that they said the citizenship card is required. I think others have been told it must be the original paper copy with the date of citizenship. The card only has the date of issue.
Also. as of February 1, 2012, CIC is no longer issuing the photo wallet sized cards. The Certificate of Canadian Citizenship is again a letter sized paper copy with what seem to be some security features in it. My new certificate was issued in early March, but has my 1973 citizenship date.
@ Arrow
Congratulations to you and your wife. I am amazed but pleased that they allowed you to attend the meeting with your wife.
Re the need for the “citizenship card” – I never had just the card. I have always used the certificate as it was the only thing I had. Also, I do not have my “landing” papers. I did recently receive the copy of my citizenship file from the Access to Information and Privacy Dept. On it, it states that they looked at the “landing documents to verify” but must have given them back to me. I have had at least four moves since then so who knows where they could be.
It must have been disappointing that they did not even look at your wife’s Statutory Declaration. I thought it was brilliant and told the whole story. Also, disappointing that the Vancouver office requires two appointments and then an additional years wait for a CLN.
As far as crossing the border goes, I think we are “safe” for a little while yet. Just two weeks ago, a friend here in Vancouver, citizen of Canada 1980, crossed using her Cdn. passport (she doesn’t have a U.S. passport) and she was not even asked anything. She crossed at YVR.
Tiger:
I never got the card either — not sure why my wife did. The card doesn’t have a date on it, while the certificate does. Since a big part of the relinquishment case revolves around doing it in 1974, I’m not sure how the card would help much.
You can get certified copies of your landed immigrant papers through Service Canada — we had to do that to qualify for OAS! And the consulate guy definitely looked at them to verify the dates.
@Arrow
Thanks for the info re Service Canada. I will apply for a certified copy of my landing documents. That requirement seems rather silly to me. We would not have been allowed to naturalize in Canada had we not “landed” prior to that. A bit rendundant, I would say but whatever they want, I will do, if it means I can shut that door one final last time.
@Tiger — do you indeed have Adobe Reader installed on your computer? That may be your problem.
If not: http://adobe-reader.en.softonic.com/