The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
@undecided Canadian. Further on the SSN and last US address: in Toronto my wife (relinquishment) was never asked for either, never volunteered either, didn’t put them on any forms, and she got her (backdated) CLN four and a half months later with no problems. Not sure why this is now being asked for in some cases, but I don’t think not having this information or not reporting it will make any difference to their approval of your CLN.
Not an issue for me, but if I had to get a CLN again now, I actually do remember my last US address (though not the zip code and I doubt the address still exists, it was temporary student housing). I burned my SSN card with my draft card the day I got my Canadian citizenship, I don’t remember my SSN, don’t have any documents that show it, and I’d never contact the US government and ask them if they could find it for me. I doubt there’s enough from part-time and summer student employment in my account to justify the cost of printing the social security cheques if I applied for them, I’d have to start filing tax returns if I got the money, it’s not worth any of these hassles, I don’t want their damn money and they’re welcome to apply whatever is in my account to make a microscopic reduction to their national debt.
There can be all kinds of reasons why someone doesn’t have a social security number …
*To those of you who are receiving no response to your repeated requests for an appointment with a US Consulate to renounce US citizenship, I just had a thought:
As a US citizen resident abroad, whether or not you have ever exercised it, you have a right to vote in the state and precinct where you last resided in the US. (You may not have this right if you were born outside of the US to a US citizen parent and have never lived in the US). But if you have lived in the US then you certainly have that right.
Let me suggest you first call the “if you have any questions” telephone number listed rather than faxing the information, so you can talk directly to the person and explain the fact that your email and/or voice mail messages are being ignored, and ask for assistance in contacting the consulate and asking that they contact you so you can make the appointment. (Perhaps you can obtain an email address of this person to which you can forward the emails you have sent to the consulate which have been ignored.)
Incidentally some of my overseas friends have told me that the way to make use of the legislators websites to send them email messages is to type your complete address in the address spaces, and then type in a ZIP code that is in the state (and district for Congressman) which they represent in Washington. This is a way to “beat the system” by passing the validation test which is based on the ZIP code.
Here is a “copy and paste” of the information on Senator Nelson’s website:
“Senator Nelson’s office can help if you have a problem dealing with a federal agency, including, but not limited to Medicare, Social Security, veterans’ benefits and travel visas.
To effectively and efficiently work on your request, complete and sign the consent for release of information form, provide a detailed account of the problem and describe any actions already taken. Include copies of all documentation that support your claim or may be helpful, such as letters to and from agencies as well as medical or other forms. Mail or fax all materials to Senator Nelson’s Orlando office. If your problem is life-threatening, call (407) 872-7161 or (888) 671-4091 or fax a completed consent form to 407-872-7165 during business hours (Monday-Friday; 8:00am-5:00pm).
Consent for release of information form
Request for Assistance (Casework)
Mail or fax the completed Consent for Release of Information Form with any supporting documentation to:
U.S. Senator Bill Nelson
Landmark Two
225 East Robinson Street, Suite 410
Orlando, FL 32801
(407) 872-7165 fax
Call (407) 872-7161 or (888) 671-4091 if you have any questions.”
It might be worth a phone call just to see what happens. I am sure they are not used to dealing with this specific problem, but as a “Subject to US Taxation” expatriate with a explicit right to vote in that state or precinct, you have every right to receive this same legislative assistance as any constituent who physically lives in the area represented by this Congressman or Senator.
Hopefully someone will give it a try and share with all of us what happens.
*When you see what happened recently in Libia, you can understand why newer US embasies today and counsulates are being built like bunkers. When we lived in Peru 45years ago the US embassy occuped a complete city bloc on Avenida Woodrow Wilson near downtown, It was surrounded by an ornate iron fence. It had normal windows where from the street you could see people workng in their office inside. Then a few year back when the Sendero Luminoiso (Shining Path) gurellla movement was terrorizing that nation, blowing up power stations, high tension power lines, killing politicians and innocent civilians and took over the Japanese Embassy holding as hostage most everyone inside, etc. the US built a new bunker-like embassy building in a surburban area, selling the old embassy building. The new Embassy building is ugly but pracital from a being-able-to-be-defended point of view.
@pacificia777, schubert1975, etc
OK – hopefully final questions for anyone who has used on-line booking calendar form for Toronto Consulate:
If booking an appt for relinquishing, do you choose US or Canadian citizen from pull down menu? I committed relinquishment act decades ago, so don’t want to compromise or enter false info.
Passport info – enter old US passport or current Canadian passport?
Using this system, do you get provide details of why the appt is made, so they can send current forms? I have already dnloaded these anyway to review.
Is there any way to send them an email to book? Anyone have good results with corresponding by postal mail.
Thanks again – having this kind of insight is very helpful in sorting this out. Am not concerned with getting any kind of payment from Social Security – don’t think ever made any significant contribution anyway and have lived and worked in Canada all adult life.
*@undecided, The process was a little different when I booked my appt. a year ago. Back then the site said to email first but even then, when I did, they just told me to book online. Go to American Citizen Services Appointment, then choose notarial services, then choose online booking tool. From the calender, you select your appointment time. On the form I put Canadian/US for citizenship, entered Canadian passport info,and I used my Canadian passport to enter. When you go, there is a huge line up for people seeking visas, DON’T stand in that one. There is a second line up that will just have a couple of people, so it looks more like confused people milling about, go in that one. The guard brings you in in small groups. You can email them at TorontoPassport@state.gov
I filled all the forms in ahead of time, since I wanted time to think about my answers. In their email to me, they told me they would give me the forms at the appointment to fill in.
Good luck.
@ Undecided,
I relinquished years ago and filed my CLN application at Toronto in May.
As Quincy advises, you just book under “notarial and other services” and, when you arrive at the Simcoe Street entrance, go to the US citizens line (even though you’re not one). It is shorter and it is the appropriate one as you’re going to the ACS division.
One difference from Quincy is I put Canadian for citizenship, not Can/US.
Passport. Same as Quincy, I recommend using only current Canadian passport to enter building. It’s both current and you’re not a USC.
When I booked online, I got an acknolwedgement-of-booking directly from the on-line booking system when I booked. I did not get anything sent by e-mail or any communication from the consulate. I printed the forms from the DOS website, filled them out and brought them to my appointment.
When you book for “notarial and other services,” the booking system doesn’t ask what service you want. So, I just showed up at the appointment time and the clerk seemed familiar with people coming in to expatriate. I had no problems at all and everybody I interacted with at Toronto was very pleasant and they seemed to be very efficient too.
@Cir. I’m in the same wet coast boat waiting for my second appointment but it looks like you are one month ahead of me. They lack the basic courtesy of at least an automated acknowledgment.
@Undecided
This is the email address to use for the Toronoto consulate:
TorontoPassport@state.gov
You will receive an automatic reply with a lot of references to the website and the info that they will respond in 24 hours. They did, everytime. Several times, within 5 mins.
About the SSN & TO – Mrs. A. sent me the forms in the mail. Included was something called “Information Record of American Citizen Services.” It is one page and looks to be what might be used to register with the Consulate just so they know where you are. The number of the form says C-93 08/20/2002. This is the only form where I see my SSN. Perhaps why some people seem to be asked and some aren’t. (Mrs. A is gone now and I don’t recall hearing anyone else having the forms sent in advance by mail). This may be very different now, I received this package first week of November a year ago.
About the last address: I see that is on my Oath/DS 4080-I used my parent’s address.
FYI If there are no lines, there is usually a guard standing at the entrance. If not, there is someone sitting behind a window just to the left of the door. After you go thru security, you walk up this long ramp where will be another guard. You walk thru the very full and noisy room of visa applicants to the next door where a guard will put you on the elevator. I have even had guards actually go with me on the elevator. Amer Cit Serv is on the 3rd floor and you will see the “bank teller-type” windows right away. As I recall, you go to the first window/cashier and tell them what you want. You get a number and sit until the digital-neon type light tells you which window to go to. I have never seen the waiting room crowded and it’s probably the calmest part of the whole experience. Good luck!
*Is a a passport of some flavour necessary for booking and entry to the consulate? I haven’t used my Canadian passport for a while and just realized that it has expired. Thankfully, never had the US version.
*@CDS, Is a passport necessary to enter a US consulate? I certainly should not be. A person born in Canada, for example, to a US parent is a US citizen. If he or she has never had reason to travel outside of Canada then there is reason why such a person should either have either a US or Canadian Passport. I do not know how it is in Canada, but I am sure that in the US only a minority of US citizens have ever been issued passports.
Other than a passport, what other document do Canadians use to vailidate their identiy? In the US the most common identiy document is a driver’s license, or for persons who who does not drive, a identity card that looks like a driver’s license and is issued by the same state bureau that issues driver’s license. These are issued by the state in which the person resides, rather than the Federal Government.
Many national governments issue identity documents to all of their residents, both citizens and non-citizens alike. But the US does not have a Federally-issued ID card.
@CDN,
No, a passport is not necessary for booking and entry to a Consulate. Your expired Canadian passport is still identification for you for this purpose and proof, along with your Canadian birth certificate?, of your Canadian citizenship — and you have other identificatio as Roger points out. Whatever you do, don’t get that dreaded US passport, as I think you realize.
*Thanks for the response Calgary and Roger. No US passport for me, I’d rather stay home!
In Toronto, they want to see a printout of your appt. I had an email appt to come down and pick up my CLN. So I had neither a standard appt sheet nor a US passport. The first guard couldn’t figure it so he sent me to the window person who seemed to be able to figure it out and I went straight to Amer Cit Serv upstairs. I think I had my CDN passport out but not sure now.
@CDN When my wife went for her interview in Toronto, she showed both her current Canadian passport and her Ontario driver’s license (with photo). It was the driver’s license they borrowed and made a full-colour, high-resolution copy of for their files, not her passport. No idea why; neither photo is particularly flattering, but the passport photo is actually larger and sharper than the one on the driver’s license. But for identification purposes they seem to be happy enough with a driver’s license. (Hers is the standard license, it isn’t even the new “enhanced” one.) This was about six months ago; I doubt things have changed since then.
To reinforce Roger’s point about passports: I never got a passport until I had become Canadian and was in my 30s. My dad (a WWII vet though he only served stateside) never got a passport until he was in his 70s, for his one and only trip across the ocean on a holiday. Given the price of passports and the cost of air travel especially overseas, there are lots of people who never get passports unless they need them for a specific (and rare) trip. And lots of people who get one and then forget to renew it after it expires, then scramble at the last minute to renew it when they decide to take another rare trip outside the country. There are also lots of Americans and Canadians who never leave their country, and I’ve known people in the US who’d never left their state and a few who’d never even left the county. Though that was about 45 years ago …
@all,
And here’s a thought, while you are in the shorter line for renouncing your Citizenship, hand out a small card with a FBAR and FATCA Warning on it to those are applying for their U.S. Visas. You would be doing them a favor and making them an informed consumer. It is the only truth in advertising notice they will get that they are entering the Penalty Zone. Think of it as a small ‘Buyer Beware’ reminder. It will not be mentioned on their Visa application or notice of acceptance when they receive it.
Ok, just tongue-in-cheek suggestion, and I actually don’t expect anyone to to that. However, I wonder how they would respond if someone walked in with a stack of, say, the 74 page publication 519, US Tax Guide for Aliens and started handing them out to everyone in line! That might remove some of the shine on those starry eyed would be American Dreamers. 🙂
Don’t know exactly where to put this but I came across it 5 mins ago and some old-timers here would probably find it interesting-also, with expat forums giving advice like this without including the consequences…..grrrrrrrrrrrr
http://www.expatforum.com/expats/general-expat-discussions/132487-consular-report-birth-how-necessary.html
@nobeldreamer Nothing quite like throwing your own kids under the US bus, in a misguided idea that you’re doing them a favour, eh?
That’s what happens when a website’s moderators drive off alternative viewpoints. Don’t know about you, but I have no interest in going back to that other place and battling with their moderators to try to give some sensible alternative views about US citizenship “benefits” or otherwise.
I suspect the parents who posed the original question on that thread really do mean well for their kids, but as lots of us have learned over the years, it’s much better to let the kids decide for themselves when they grow up whether they want to get USC. Yes it will in fact be harder in terms of paperwork if the parents haven’t registered you, but that’s assuming the kids actually want to go down that road once they’ve reached the age of majority and can think and decide for themselves. And if they decide they really do want to go down that road and have to go through more hoops to do it, that isn’t the end of the world and maybe they’ll appreciate the end result more (assuming they will, and who are we to judge maybe they would). It’s not like it’s impossible to get USC as an adult if your parents didn’t register you at an embassy or consulate, it’s quite possible. The flip side however is what horrors have you locked your kids into by registering them now, before they’re old enough and responsible enough to decide for themselves?
I’m preaching to the choir on this website. Pity that I and other former refugees from that website no longer have the taste, or probably even the option once the moderators take notice, of sneaking back there and giving a different viewpoint. However you can’t solve all the world’s problems and help everyone … maybe with luck someone will steer the parents in that post over to IBS.
I suggest that if others want to get into more comments on this particular topic, it would be best if the discussion moves to a new and clearly labelled thread, so it doesn’t get lost or divert the main thrust of this thread, which is discussing the relinq and renounce process and timelines.
@nobledreamer,
Likely most of us who used to subscribe are banned there and any comment any here would give would be CENSORED!
Wish we could throw one of Just Me’s business cards to this poor innocent US Abroad so the trap is not entered.
*The consular report of birth is written confirmation of US citizenship, but US citizen he is regardless of whether he is registered with the consulate or not. Unless you want him to be issued a US passport to travel as a US citizen to the US, there is probably no hurry.
You/he may want to decide when he is older if he wants to move to the US to live and to work. If so he can go the US consulate with proof of birth to a US parent abroad and obtain a passport at that time. As an “out of the closet” US citizen he has an obligation to file US tax returns starting with the year in which his world-wide income reaches whatever the threshold is at that time for required filing.
With the current US policy of citizenship-based taxation he may want to think twice about claiming US citizenship. If he intends to stay in Austria or live in some other country there certainly is no hurry.
Will this citizenship-based tax policy of the US ever change? No reason to believe that it will, but nobody knows. Never say never. Someday I hope wisdom will prevail, but I sure don’t see any signs of it now.
@Schubert & Calgary
I was doing my daily check for Twitter purposes and the AARO has a paper.li. I clicked on the link without realizing where it was going. Needless to say, I was (not) shocked to see “our” moderator giving just the advice we would expect. It made me rather angry.
@Nobledreamer. That moderator is living proof of the adage, leopards never change their spots. Moderators on that website are no more likely to countenance or offer an alternative perspective on issues such as this one, IMO, than Congress is to switch from citizenship-based to residence-based US taxation (which as Roger notes isn’t very likely). So we can thank Petros and others again for setting up IBS as an alternative.
@nobledreamer, pacifica, schubert,
Can you imagine having as much information as we have here at Isaac Brock (important information for expats!, not the where can I go shopping in this country when I go there, etc.) on the former site? The best thing that happened to us is the “Moderators” kicking us out of there with their censorship and deletions of our discussion with other thinking expats on issue of citizeship-based taxation. Those that remain there (and those, unfortunately, who look to that site for US tax information) are all still in lala land. In the meantme, this site has thrived and really helped others (I think!). Thanks for keeping it alive, Petros.
I check out That Forum occasionally. Occasionally someone has a question involving the R word. I comment and I see a few other Brockers doing so. Someone (didn’t recognise the name as a Brocker) recommended our site including a link to it, but that was edited out when I looked again. I’ve noticed a few of those threads getting locked and/or deleted.
Fortunately we come up pretty easy in Google now. I was very relieved recently when I recognised the handle of a person in a serious and complicated situation who’d had a lot of questions at That Forum turn up here at Brock!
Something I don’t remember from the old days (it might be new, might not),is that I noticed a few months ago that That Forum has some sort of premium membership, where a business “may promote their products and services within specific … forums.” So tax firms are commenting on the expat tax thread. As you’d imagine, they tend to stress how difficult renunciation is and how simple it is to conform with US tax laws.
So maybe business reasons had something to do with our being kicked out. We’re bad for the advertisers. Then I had this theatre-of-the-absurd vision of Brock stealthily taking out a premium membership 🙂
Agreed, Calgary. Brock (or some other group) probably would have started at some point, but the censorship at the place we met in cyberspace made it happen pretty quick as opposed to just thinking about it. And we’ve become such a great resource, helping so many people (including me), I’m really glad we got started when we did.
DOES anyone know the count for renunciations this year?
I have made a graph of all other years to use when I talk to Senators and Congressman tomorrow in the Big Apricot