The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
*Citizen of Europe:
I like the implications of the two questions at the end of your Nov 15 comment. CAN we approach some higher authority—someone in DC perhaps? No one should have to leave their own regions just to get a respectable email answer, let alone an appointment. The whole point of consulates is to serve its catchment area.
Cir
Cir wrote: “The whole point of consulates is to serve its catchment area.” “Serve”? really. More like lord it over. They are the representatives of the world’s superpower manifest in their various countries, deigning to condescend to our level, us poor expats who have left the wonderful homeland. They will answer your email when and if they feel like it. But probably, they are too busy with their extra-marital affairs, like Generals Petraeus, Allen, and their former commander, Bill Clinton; or they are playing golf, like Obama (who has spent the equivalent of about 50 working days as POTUS playing golf [100 x 4 hrs / 8 hrs/day = 50 full-time equivalent day’s labour).
*Hey, Petros, do not capsize on us!
@pacifica, tiger, schubert, and others
Thanks again for thoughtful advice and sharing experiences.
As mentioned, I have been in “watchful-waiting and observation” mode (a useful
phrase borrowed from oncologists). But recent events and family
concerns are tipping my thinking towards closure. My papers are in order but am cautious about poking a sleeping dog with them!
The closest consulate to provide notice of relinquishment is Toronto. Been reading the consulate reports and it sounds like they’re reasonable.
Does anyone know appropriate email contact for Toronto consulate services? There is an on-line booking system but no contact info seems to be published. Right now, no dates available in that on-line calendar.
Also, do you need a “Social Security” number to relinquish. My only US employment was student part-time jobs, and I don’t remember if I have one? I do recall my last American address: a rundown student boarding house. I’d be surprised if still standing – it’s probably a strip mall, parking lot or gated community by now.
*Undecided Canadian
They do not need your last “physical address” in the US.
I used my parent’s address, it was the most significant or meaningful address for me.
You do not need a SSN to renounce/relinquish but will need one if required to file
US taxes
*@citizen of Europe, Cecking my business cards here are a couple of persons in Washington at the State Department that might be able to trigger a response to your unaswered inquiries:
Maura Harty, Assistant Secretary of State, consular affairs, hartyma@state.gov. Tel +1-202-647-9576
Edward A. Betancourt, Director, Office of Public Policy Review and Interagency Liason,betancourt@state.gov, +1-202-647-3666
These cards are from my last visit to Washington as part of the ACA group about 4 or 5 years ago, so I am not sure if they are still valid. But they may be worth a try if nothing else seems to produce results.
@ Undecided
Booking dates became available online again yesterday. They have 11 appointments available in December, starting 17 December, and 192 appointments in January.
Social security number. I can’t answer with certainty. There is nothing on the DoS relinquishment or renounce forms to be filled in with a social security number. Someone posted that they were asked for theirs at Toronto, but someone else posted that they weren’t asked. I wasn’t either. My guess that if it’s a new DOS requirement that the consulate gets your ssn number, TO will require it — but if it’s not a DOS requirement and you don’t know your ssn number, Toronto’s reasonable, they’ll accept your answer that you don’t know. Sorry I don’t really know.
*When we lived in Peru, the Peruvian Government issued auto license tags with numbers prefixed by the letters CD, which represented Cuerpo Diplomatico, or Diplomatic Corps, to foreign embassy and consulate personnel.
Among the Peruvians, they used to joke that those letters CD really stood for “Caballeros Descancando,” That is gentlement resting.)
In other words their principal function in being assigned there was to play golf, participate in diplomatic receptions, etc. Several times almost every week there were diplomatic receptions at one embassy or another in comemoration of the national holiday of that country, its Independence Day, or in comemoration of some other important event in the history of that nation. Important Peruvian government personalies, such as cabinet members, senators, congressmen, etc. and other “important” business and government people were seemingly on the invitation lists of most of the diplomatic representations and rarely missed the opportunity to participate in these receptions..
@ Undecided,
I like Patricia’s answer better than mine. So, I just checked the current version of the DOS procedure manual and forms (4079 and 4081) online, in case there’d been a change, and they don’t mention SSN at all. Don’t know why Toronto asked someone for it recently, but it doesn’t appear to be required, so not remembering the number should not be a problem.
Thanks, Roger!
@Citizen of Europe. I did some googling and found that Edward Betancourt is still in that post but looks like he has a new (or second) phone number 202-736-9104. Maura Harty has retired has been replaced by Janice Jacobs, same phone number as Ms. Harty had.
Thanks Roger and Pacifica! I will give them a couple more days to respond to my most recent email (sent yesterday) and if I don’t receive a response I am going to send a registered letter to the Consul General here and if that doesn’t get me an appointment, I will use the contact information you sent me. Thanks again for the concrete advice!
Further to my posting a couple of days ago, in response to iamquincy’s news about his CLN: I have a friend who went to Toronto for a relinquishment CLN (for 1976 expatriation) about three weeks after Pacifica went. My friend emailed the Toronto consulate asking where her CLN is (after I sent her an email about iamquincy’s email experience). She got a very quick reply, within an hour or two, saying that the consulate didn’t have hers yet and would contact her when they do get it.
Just to reiterate that there is no rhyme nor reason about the timing or sequencing of the approvals, and I strongly suspect the lack of consistency is entirely at the Washington level and has little or nothing to do with the consulates. In every case for which I know the signature dates on CLNs, Toronto has signed off on relinquishment CLNs (if they’re going to sign off) within seven calendar days of the interview. The delays are all in Washington, and/or between the time Washington approves and the consulate sends the CLNs. Whether that latter is due to slow internal mail in the State Department, or delays in the consulates in preparing the CLN paperwork to send out, I can’t say, maybe a bit of both. I suspect there needs to be some careful paperwork at the preparation level to make sure they don’t screw up anything, and given the number of appointments and interviews, preparing the paperwork (on top of all the other things the consular folks have to do) is probably not at the top of the to-do list. They get around to it, but within time and staff constraints. My guess anyway (having worked in big federal Canadian bureaucracies for decades, I have no trouble imagining how that can play out).
My inbox had a huge slew of post notifications for this thread today and it’s taken me a while to get through all of them, so my apologies for not addressing this to the particular folks.
I sense there is a mood afoot to find someone in State to complain to about the delays and difficulties in getting appointments, not only in Vancouver but I think in Sweden and elsewhere.
Let me be the mischievous little elf and pass on to you the name and address of the Big Cheese in Washington who is, or was as of this past Spring, the man in charge of all CLN files worldwide. Complain to him. Registered letters sound good. Don’t complain to the embassy in Ottawa, your complaint will probably spiral off into a big Black Hole somewhere.
Here it is (don’t ask how I got it, but I know it’s the right one):
Edward A. Betancourt, Director
Office of Policy Review and Interagency Liaison
Office of Overseas Citizen Service
Bureau of Consular Affairs
U.S. Department of State
4th Floor
2100 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
Washington, DC 20037
USA
This is the address for express mail and presumably registered mail. They use a different one for regular mail. Use this one, is my advice, and why not spend a few extra loonies and pay for registration or courier (at least from Canada; I suspect it might be rather pricier from Sweden). Even if you send regular mail to this address and they don’t like it, I suspect it will still end up on Betancourt’s inbox one way or another.
Bear in mind, you’re just adding to his inbox which is probably already overflowing. But a whack of complaints might get his attention.
You didn’t hear this from me 8-)))) Have fun, and good luck!
*Schubert
I believe Roger Conklin met that same individual a few year ago if you look at a previous posting.
This was the questionnaire I filled out prior to my appointment and returned by email to the Calgary US Consulate, SSN provided. It was used by the Calgary Consulate to have all paperwork prepared and ready to go when I arrived:
Didn’t see Roger’s post until after I put up mine with Betancourt’s address. Interesting to see that Betancourt has been in the job for several years now, and from what Pacifica found under Google he still seems to be there. So he’s a long-term bureaucrat who knows that job very thoroughly.
Sounds to me that he’s the ideal lightning rod for complaints. Go for it.
Thanks, Calgary.
Looks like Question 3 (SSN) is the only one which requests information that does not also appear on one of the DoS forms required by Washington (4079-4083). I would think that if you wrote, “don’t have one,” it would not be a game-breaker. And if you wrote “can’t remember,” the worst they’d do is tell you to contact Social Security Dept and find it out. Just my 2c.
@pacifica,
I agree — don’t think it is any deal breaker at all. I was worried because I didn’t know my last address, just the “town – now city” that I once lived in. Not a problem with just the city and the state for Calgary and the information on the prepared official documentation I signed. I was also not asked anything about that one bad act I did — voting. Nor did I know the exact date I came to Canada, but I did know the date of taking Canadian citizenship. I still haven’t heard back from Canada Immigration on my queries of “landing” in Canada — maybe when I have some time, I’ll try to get my money back. In the end, I didn’t need that either.
Hijacked2012 posted this on the Consulate Report Directory thread.
*@ Pacifica. Calgary. Undecided
I filled in the same questionnaire but without SSN. No comment was made by the Calgary consulate.
Congratulations Calgary on your renunciation. Best of luck on getting the same right for your son.
@Undecided Canadian
Re SSN – Although as mentioned it is not asked for on the forms, the Vancouver consulate did ask if I had a SSN on a ‘cover sheet’ they had for the file. I responded that “If I had one, I have no idea what it was”. The clerk accepted that and wrote down “Does not know” next to the question. So it seems like even in DIFFICULT Vancouver, the SSN is not important.
Good Luck
*@undecided, I was asked for my SSN at the Toronto consulate as well as my last address in the US. I didn’t have a SSN and only knew the name of the city I last lived in. It didn’t seem to cause a problem. They just told me this week by email that my CLN has been approved.
@iamquincy,tiger,hijacked2012,calgary411, schubert, and others…
Thank you SO much for fast, detailed responses. Will discuss with family and counsel. An adviser said “If you’re walking down the sidewalk, and a dog across the street starts barking at you, don’t cross the street and poke him with a stick”. But a US birthplace is making it impossible to open a bank account or conduct business anywhere else in the world.
@All
Regarding the Toronto consulate, they have 4 appts for each 15 minute slot. I am looking at Dec 27 available spots and there are 4 for 2:00 pm. 16 per day usually 3 days a week. That’s 192 a month.Exactly what I have reported in the past and what AnonAnon is saying now.I don’t recall ever seeing more than 3 days per week available. But it has been this way now, for several months at least. Not every appt is for relinquishment/renunciation though.
FWIW, someone recently, I don’t know which thread it was, gave a number of 200 renunciations from Toronto. I think in relation to info he/she received when asking where their CLN was.
But theoretically 192 people could sign up for R&R in a month … as it falls under “notarial and other services.” Since last winter at least, you just signed up on-line for “notarial and other services,” didn’t hear anything from the consulate, just showed up and, when you arrived, they asked you what you were there for.
I realise, of course, that in reality not all 192 slots will be taken by R&R applications.
Meanwhile 2 Brockers reported that 2 different Ottawa staffers said that Ottawa was doing 1 R&R per week.
So, theoretically Toronto can do 192 R&Rs in a month and Ottawa can do 4.
I’m not trying to estimate total CLNs here, but I’m struck about what this says about procedural differences. Does Ottawa think if they make it hard for you to renounce, you’ll like the US even more?
@ Pacifica. Re the procedural differences between Toronto and Ottawa. I think the ego-inflated exceptionalists at the embassy in Ottawa have their heads wedged too far up their own butts to do their jobs properly and efficiently. Unlike their colleagues in all the consulates in Canada, with the arguable exception of Vancouver.
I ran into that many times working in the Government of Canada trying to liaise with the regional and local offices of the various departments I worked in. HQ people have a very distorted view of their own importance and workload, relative to the real workers in the system. I guess in this specific case, that phenomenon generalizes to the embassy here in town. Maybe it’s something to do with the neo-fascist-style architecture of that hideous building the embassy is housed in. (The consulate in Toronto is smaller, older, more human and humane looking; I’ve not seen the other consulates so I can’t really comment on them. But at some point, I do believe architecture can influence the attitudes of the people who work in the building. Certainly seems to me to be the case in the huge bunker on Sussex Drive.)
I’m sure if you have a conversation similar to this with any US federal employee who works “out in the boonies” regarding what it’s like dealing with Washington, you’ll get similar reactions. Certainly my wife picked up a bit of that in some off-the-cuff remarks during her interview with the vice consul in Toronto, when the conversation shifted to how long it would take the CLN to arrive and what gets done in Washington …