The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
@ calgary411
I’ll be happy to provide information. I did call the consulate and left a message, but I haven’t heard back yet. When I have more information I’ll report it.
Thanks, Clint. Each reported experience will help someone else along the line. Regards.
Clint – I’ve had your experience. Communicate with a US Consulate and receive back a useless non sequitur. A chill went down my spine. First thought: They’re messing around with me, showing me how they can do whatever they like – maybe even never let me join the rare company of freeatlast. How can you negotiate legal exit with a sneering piece of idiosyncratic bureaucratic jello? Reminiscent of relatives who daily sought exit visas from the Soviet Union in 1929. In both cases, patience and persistence prevail in the face of arbitrary autocracy. In present circumstances, there is far more evidence for incompetence than malice – FATCA and some border florists perhaps excluded!
@ Clint,
Halifax Consulate has a very good reputation for customer service by people who have renounced or formailsed their relinquishment there (pleasant, helpful, etc.). I don’t know off-hand about how they are in e-mail, phone contact. However I do recall that Halifax took the initiative to phone Babbs, asking her if she would like to move up her appointment as they had an earlier slot available if she wanted it.
I do echo USX that some consulates have sent non-sequiter or odd replies to e-mail, one of the weirder ones being Vancouver replied to someone’s expatriation request with instructions for passport renewal.
I contacted the US consulate in Halifax on September 12 with a request for information on relinquishment. I bolded relinquishment in my email. Yesterday I received a reply about renounciation. However, the information and instructions sent to me will do for relinquishment.
I think all US consulates and embassies are a bit distracted right now.
My question here is about providing an affidavit with Form 4979. I know there has been some discussion about this, but I’m not clear if it is just a good idea to provide one or is not necessary.
@Clint There is no necessity to provide an affidavit for Form 4079. As to whether it’s a good idea: I’ll only give my opinion re relinquishment (since that’s all I’m familiar with). My wife attached a very detailed affidavit to her 4079. We drafted the affidavit together, and we reviewed it with a lawyer. It definitely didn’t hurt her case. She got her CLN 4.5 months after her interview. I won’t say the affidavit had anything to do with that; this is a sample of one, and who knows what affects processing time?
We both felt an affidavit would be a good idea in a relinquishment, especially one going back more than 30 years, in order to spell out in full detail that she intended to relinquish and that subsequently she did absolutely nothing to exercise or claim rights or benefits of US citizenship. We think the affidavit impressed the officials who reviewed the file, but we don’t know that for sure. It can’t have hurt, and it certainly didn’t delay her CLN relative to anyone else’s in Canada to date.
Arguably in renunciation an affidavit is superflous, since you aren’t required to say why you’re renouncing and you don’t need to document or argue anything about your past behaviour, as you do with relinquishment. Arguably making any statement as to why you’re renouncing won’t help and might hurt if you say the wrong things … I know others have raised that point in the past. Which is why, even with a relinquishment, I think it’s important to get at least a second opinion about the wording of the affidavit from someone who is familiar with the process and the issues that can arise, before swearing it and submitting it.
If you do file an affidavit, make two or maybe three copies and have them all notarized. One for your 4079, one for your safe deposit box, and maybe one in reserve for FATCA or anything else that might come up before your CLN arrives. They took the copy my wife brought to the consulate, and when her CLN came copies of her other documents were attached but the affidavit wasn’t. She had made extra copies before the interview, at my strong urging (I’ve been saying this even back in ExpatForum days last Fall) and this wasn’t a problem.
@ schubert
Thank you for your response. Based on your reply, a reply by Pacifica on another thread to the same question and a discussion I had some time ago with an immigration lawyer, I will be including a statement with 4079 which basically states something very similar to what I assume your wife stated.
It appears so far, from the reports on this site, although limited, that no relinquishment requests have been refused. Of course, with the time delay is receiving CLNs, we may yet hear of a rejection.
@Clint,
It looks like the decision is really made at the consulate.The consular officer fills out your CLN with the date of loss of citizenship, based on their evaluation, before forwarding your file to Washington. It appears that unless something looks really wonky, Washington accepts the consular officer’s evaluation.
I guess that’s because the consular officer actually has the interaction with the person and can ask the person to clarify something if necessary. FWIW, I know that with renunciations, the officer must send a report about the meeting along with the CLN application, and I’d guess they probably do that with relinquishments too. Rejection by Washington is really really rare (Consulate staff told one or two Brockers who asked that they’d never seen a rejection). The only cases I could find were most definitely not what I’d call “everyday people” like we guys are.
Halifax has a good reputation and is familiar with relinquishments, so everything should go smoothly, the vice consul should assure you that everything’s in order for your backdated CLN, which s/he prepares. Then, it appears that HQ in Washington will act in accordance with the vice consul’s evaluation.
@Pacifica777
‘It looks like the decision is really made at the Consulate’.
Does this mean that there is no investigation/inquiries made re any acts ie applying for U.S.passport/voting etc after the date of the expatriating act? I know those questions are answered on the 4079 but I thought they were then perhaps ‘investigated’ by the State Dept and that explained the delays in receiving the CLN.
@Tiger,
I don’t know who investigates, but it does seems that DC very rarely overrides the consulates.
I don’t know how thoroughly the 4079 is investigated or who does it. The consulate can easily check passport info before meeting with you and probably does, and it’s quite possible some other stuff, databases and internet being what they are today. Apart from that, I would guess that someone (consulate and/or DC, I don’t know) checks whatever they can, but most of the 4079 questions aren’t easily checkable — probably most of those questions would only be investigated if there’s a problem with the case or a contestation.
As for the delays in CLNs, they’ve been happening for both relinquish and renounce in Canada, but the standard delay for CLNs to the other zones of the world is 1-2 months. (From what I’ve heard, it’s a staffing issue, not that they’re particularly scrutinising Canadian applications — in fact, when the Canadian log jam broke, one of the Calgary people got theirs in 6 weeks.)
We only have 2 relinquish from outside Canada in our database and they got their CLNs in about a month. Now that the Canadian log jam is breaking up, there doesn’t appear to be any pattern of relinquishments taking any longer than renunciations.
So, I really don’t know what goes on. Just my opinion from piecing together bits of information
@Clint. I think you’re making the right decision re affidavit. Good luck! All reports from Halifax to date have been positive ones (as Pacifica has already noted), so I doubt the luck is needed, but best wishes for you all the same.
I tend to agree with Pacifica’s analysis of what Washington does or doesn’t do, vis-a-vis the CLNs. Particularly given the very short approval times for relinquishments outside Canada and what we’ve heard about the reason (staffing in Washington) for delays in Canadian applications, what she suggests makes sense to me. And the consulates aren’t delaying things, to my knowledge. Toronto signed off on my wife’s relinquishment CLN exactly one week after her interview; the delays in her case were all in Washington and somewhere between the DC mailroom and the consulate giving the package to Canada Post for delivery.
The clearer your affidavit, and the more you can document it, probably the faster the approval, but who knows. That would be logical, but I’m not sure how much logic is involved with anything in the US government these days.
Further to Pacifica’s comments two lines up, I agree with her that it would probably be rare that DC would go against a consulate’s recommendation in these matters. I base that partly on my own experience in the Canadian federal government, working as I did at times in an HQ office responsible for liasing and coordinating with regional offices in a large department I won’t name. If they know what’s good for them and for the smooth operating of the department, HQ isn’t going to second-guess the people “in the field” or “on the ground” (choose your metaphor) unless something is really wonky. Add to that what Tim (I think it was) has said about all the CLN applications being funneled through a single fairly senior officer in DC, a position that’s been back-filled by an acting person for a while and who was required to pass everything another level up for review and approval, and add the large and growing backlog of forms with even more flowing in. If all that’s true (it would be monumentally stupid to run a bureau that way IMO, but stupidity never ceases to amaze me in any country’s bureaucracy), I really don’t see the new incumbent in the job (assuming that a permanent staffing of the job is why the logjam is finally breaking) going over that backlog with a magnifying glass, or really with much of anything except a rubber stamp. Especially if that person is, as I think I read somewhere, responsible for overseeing all Consular Services in Canada and not just CLNs (which are probably still a relatively small part of the job description). But who knows. Anyway, none of us on this website have heard of a CLN being denied when a consulate recommended it. And in many cases people have basically been told at the interview their case looks solid, or if it doesn’t (and I’ve yet to hear of one of those but maybe there have been and we haven’t heard). If you get through the interview and the officer isn’t frowning, scratching his/her head, muttering “gee I don’t know about this one” or giving off other pretty explicit bad vibes, your CLN almost certainly will arrive, “in the fullness of time” whatever that means.
@Schubert,
To supplement your last two sentences, I’m aware of one Brocker was told at Halifax he didn’t have a case for relinquishment and he opted to renounce instead. He didn’t post exactly why they said he didn’t have a good relinquishment case, he said “for various reasons.” I think this may have also happened with someone out West, but I can’t be sure — can’t find it right now anyway.
Johnnb also mentioned on Sandbox that he had a friend who was told she didn’t have a very good case for relinquishment (had obtained and used a US passport), and was told that it was her choice, they could send it on to DC but it didn’t look good She opted not to. I don’t know which consulate.
These two stories, coupled with the fact we have heard of no rejections yet buttresses your conclusion above.
As for Halifax, where they told someone they didn’t think he had a good relinquishment case, from what we know Halifax is both knowledgeable and playing fair.
I think an informed person (like a Brocker) knows if they have a clear cut case or one that might be a bit dicey — in the latter case if the consulate seems to be both knowledgeable and have a reputation for playing fair, one could reasonably accept what they say.
But if you believe you have a strong case and if the person you’re speaking with doesn’t think you have a good case and doesn’t seem to know what they’re talking about either, you could ask to see the supervisor. If the supervisor doesn’t seem to know what they’re doing either, you could leave politely, do more research and/or consult a knoweldgable lawyer, and then book another appointment and then make your case with some back-up reference material, or go elsewhere.
If they try to talk you out of it at a consulate with a bad reputation (so far we only know of one and it’s probably best to just avoid such place/s)or if it has no reputation at all (not yet reported on for our directory) but you feel they’re not playing fair) and you really believe you have a clear-cut case, absolutely don’t give in. I would suggest leaving politely, same stuff as above, but book somewhere else.
In any event, let Brock know if you run into problems, we may be able to help.
The bottom line is I think Schubert’s right — if the consulate is knowledgeable and in good faith, they know what is a relinquishment and what isn’t, and they seem to be straightforward about telling you so while you’re there. In fact, they fill out the CLN form and put the date of relinquishment on it, in many cases it seems right then and there during your meeting.
Further to the last sentence in Pacifica’s last comment, during my wife’s (successful) relinquishment interview in Toronto, the vice-consul filled in her CLN on the computer in front of her. She didn’t see the screen, but when she asked about the dating, he read back the date of her Canadian citizenship from the screen, and said it was from the CLN form. That in fact is the date on the CLN she received. So yes, if they agree with your relinquishment case, at least in Toronto they seem to be completing the CLN form on-line while you wait. Formal consulate approval has to be by the consul to whom the vice-consul reports, I think (the consulate signature on my wife’s CLN isn’t that of the person who interviewed her), but it’s done in the consulate within a few working days. At least in Toronto’s case, the delays (at least in my wife’s case) are all in Washington not in the consulate.
I also agree with what Pacifica suggests you should do if you are convinced you have a solid relinquishment case but are told during your interview that you don’t.
@Schubert, Pacifica
I am on count-down, so really appreciate all the good advice. I plan on rereading all of this the night before and again the morning of my appointment.
Someone posted in the last couple of days that Vancouver had no appointments until 2013. So I know that I can not cancel the appointment. My hope is they will give me the 2nd appointment date before I leave the consulate.
@Tiger. One further thought, about 2nd appointments for relinquishment. I just remembered that my wife was told by the clerk who first met with her and took her documents, that she’d need a second appointment and would she like to book it now. My wife said, this is a relinquishment not a renunciation, I don’t need to reflect on what I’m doing, I did it 35 years ago, can’t I do this all today? The clerk said “oh, I’ll check” and came back and said “sure.” So even in Toronto they sometimes get it wrong.
Worth trying in Vancouver? It can’t hurt, all they can do is say no we want you to have a second appointment. Maybe try that with the vice-consul if not with the clerk; the former has more discretion and maybe more understanding.
The only reason I can think of why they’re asking for two appointments for relinquishment in Vancouver is that the only formal guidance the foreign service officers are getting is a manual chapter on renunciation (where there is an argument for a second meeting after you go away and think about what you’re doing — but in relinquishment you’re merely formalizing something you did decades ago, what’s to think about now? You don’t want your citizenship back and aren’t asking for it back …). That chapter doesn’t say anything about relinquishment per se, about how that gets treated differently from a renuncation, and I haven’t found or heard about any guidance they might be getting from HQ specifically on relinquishment. So some folks (like at Vancouver) may be taking the simple bureaucratic approach of shoe-horning a separate process into the only process for which they have guidance in the procedures manual. Doesn’t make sense to me, but in a CYA sense it may to a bureaucrat.
Just a thought, play it by ear and see how comfortable you feel at the time pushing them a bit about the second meeting business. Or not. But it did work for my wife, and I had briefed and coached her pretty thoroughly on my understanding of the process and specifically about only needing the one interview for a relinquishment.
@Pacifica do we know of anyone in Vancouver who’s tried to push back a little on this second interview business for relinquishment?
Thinking further as a bureaucrat, why would I as a vice-consul want to make more work (another interview in an already clogged schedule) for myself or my colleagues if I really don’t need to? Particularly when none of the other consulates are doing this and given we know that Washington is in fact approving relinquishment CLNs after only one interview at the consulate (certainly in my wife’s case). Maybe Vancouver doesn’t know this, because no one’s told them yet?
@Schubert
I have mentally asked that question of ‘why would …..want to make more work….’ so many times during the past months. It makes absolutely no sense at all to me. I will possibly ask that question, if the opportunity arises. (Then again, I could be so frightened, I might be speechless!
Even some of the questions on Form DS-4079, make no sense if you are there as a ‘relinquisher’. One that comes to mind is #6 “When did you first become aware that you might be a U.S. citizen” and #7 “How did you find out that you are a citizen of the U.S.” My ‘sarcastic’ side could have alot of fun answering those two questions. But I have promised my sons that I will behave.
@Tiger re questions 6 and 7 — yep, my wife and I had a bit of frivolous fun drafting replies to those two before we settled down. I think what she ended up saying was something like “I learned as a child in the US” to both questions. We stifled the more enjoyable (for us) possible replies.
In retrospect I think the best draft reply to question 7 for a relinquishment was “I’m NOT a citizen of the US, see below dummy,” maybe without the last word in that quotation, but in the end we played it safe. (Other possible replies: I saw it on a billboard. Or, Santa left it in my stocking wrapped around a lump of coal, my only other present that Christmas …)A good idea might be, on question 7, to drive the nail home politely by saying you knew you were a US citizen until YYYY at which time you knew you no longer were a USC because you’d relinquished your USC upon becoming a Canadian citizen. I forget, are you one of those who actually signed a renunciation oath at your CDN ceremony and have a copy of it from your citizenship file? If so, question 7 and my last suggestion would be an excellent opportunity to refer to the copy of that oath as an attachment to your affidavit or statement. Do make that copy of the signed oath part of your formal statement/affidavit, that way they have to accept it as part of the form, since the form allows you to attach a statement and they can’t deny you that.
My favourite part of 4079 is that bureaucrap about response burden for completing the form being 15 minutes (sic!!!). What was the bureaumoron who came up with that figure smoking at the time? Fifteen hours, days or even weeks, I could accept; but fifteen minutes? To dig up all the documentation etc? Yeah, right.
Never forget that beltway bureaucrats (and most US politicians) live in a very strange parallel universe to yours and mine.
@Schubert and Tiger,
I think that’s very good advice you’ve given Tiger.
I don’t know of anyone who’s tried to push back on the second interview issue at Vancouver. If anyone has, please post here.
I was thinking, too, that even if someone brought this up before unsuccessfully, that was then, this is now. Someone previously may have brought it up on the spur of the moment, whereas Schubert’s brought up some good points ahead of time.
Interestingly, I had the same experience at TO as Mrs. Schubert did with the clerk I met, which was also several months ago Vague memory now, the clerk said something about “at your next meeting,” and I said, “Oh, no, it’s a relinquishment,it’s just one meeting.” She seemed puzzled. I briefly explained (like in a sentence, maybe two). She still didn’t seem to understand. So I said something like, “No problem. You know what, I’ll ask the vice consul about that.” (The brief exchange was pleasant and non-confrontational by both parties.) And, as expected, it never even came up when I met the consul.
Schubert’s ideas and logic make sense. It may be be they’re just conforming to the renunciation manual, as there is no relinquishment manual, and not thinking. Hopefully, if the logic is pointed out, they’ll be okay with 1 meeting. You could also mention that DC has approved CLNs on 1 meeting from TO, Hfx and Calgary and no rejections.
Also, I notice that Van has decreased the wait time between 2 appts, down to about two weeks. It may be they got hit with a tidal wave and it took them a while to get a handle on how to deal with it (2nd appts used to take 5 months)– this might also mean they’ve become amenable to a one-visit relinquishment (as Schubert pointed out, it’s less work for them, too.)
If it works out for one visit , that’s super. If not, it looks like the second would not have a long delay if their current pattern is holding. So if they want 2 meetings, push back on it just as far as you feel comfortable to push, or not at all if you don’t feel comfortable doing so, whatever feels right to you. The one thing to be sure of is if they’re confused and give you a 4080 renunciation oath to sign, of course, do not sign it.
Don’t be nervous, Tiger. Facts are facts, and your facts are clear-cut, and everybody reports that the Vancouver staff are great to interact with. We’ll be with you in spirit. You guys were with me as I walked over to the Toronto consulate, even though you didn’t know it. Then once inside, everyone was really nice and friendly, the meeting itself was pretty short (the vice consul looks over your documents before s/he meets with you) and it was a very comfortable conversation.
*My renunciation was Aug 1, 2012 in Calgary. Took my passport.
I need a TN but can’t because until I get offical noticifation I’m still a US citizen-no proof so I can’t even cross.
I ask when 6-12 months. Bye-Bye job.
The immigration officier went so far to make me inadmissable (sp) on furture tax avoidance. Illegal, the bill it was never passed. See Reed Admendment. They say they dropped it??
Do you need to wait until it is done when it is retroactive?
Thoughts
@ In Limbo,
Do you have a Canadian passport (I hope). Do you have the receipt for the $450 you paid for the renunciation — it should say that you have paid that fee for renunciation (to yet be confirmed with receipt of your CLN) and that information may be available at the border when you cross with our Canadian passport. It’s worth a try and likely you will be able to cross the border. There, so far, have been no reports of anyone like you, in limbo, not being able to cross the border. However, you refer to “the immigration officer” — is this an border crossing information officer when you did try to cross the border into the US? Were you denied entrance into the US at the border?
The Reed Amendment is still in force — but has not been used. http://www.renunciationguide.com/Site-Overview.html and one of many references http://blog.ustaxonline.com/tag/reed-amendment/ and also discussed the Ex-Patriot proposed legislation.
I pushed back a little in Vancouver during my first relinq and was told that 2 were required. I still don’t have my second appointment but they have contacted me twice for further info and the promise of a second appointment. They seem extremely concerned about my roots. It’s been over 4 months.
*I’m an accidental American who’s never lived or worked in the US.
Unfortunatley, I bit on the “pump fake” when US Border Guard told me, shortly after 911, it was unlawful for me to enter the US on my Canadian passport. Subsequently I acquired a US passport, now expired. I enter the US on my CDN passport without issue. Have any Broker’s had a positve relinquishment under these circumstances?More or less intimidated into acquiring a US passport with inaccurate information.
One of our main writers, Calgary411, was also coerced into obtaining a US passport under the same kind of circumstances. This is not uncommon.
@Stickman, @Petros,
Unfortunately, it IS US law. What does it mean when their law is disregarded at the border? When is the law the law? When is the law not the law?