The up-to-date database resides in Part 2 (link at the bottom of this page).
Above is a link to data we are compiling on Relinquishments and Renunciations — a work in progress. This corresponds with the Consulate Report Directory (in sticky post below), tracking individual experiences for each Consulate, along with a timeline chart.
Note: We are using numbers instead of blog names for this public posting so there will be no compromise of private information. Your facts will help give a snapshot of relinquishment and renunciation activity and where that occurs.
Please submit information in the comments here (or someone can contact you privately). Thanks for all your help on this.
COMMENTS ARE CLOSED FOR Relinquishment and Renunciation Data (as reported on Isaac Brock), Part 1.
Part 2 is now open for your comments. Thank you.
@johnnb and others
John’s take on that question on State Department form 4079 about registration of children as US citizens is exactly right, as far as I can tell. One of the people I’ve been counselling on relinquishment, on the advice of a lawyer not to lie on that form which is a sworn affidavit of its own, did tick on form 4079 “yes I did register children as US citizens” but under the question penned in the notation, right on the form and before going in for the interview, “but before YYYY” where YYYY was the year of expatriating by taking Canadian citizenship with intent to relinquish USC. The vice consul had about half an hour to examine the document (between submission of the form to the clerk and the start of the interview, during which interview the vice consul was clearly very familiar with the contents of the completed form and the attached affidavit). The vice consul never said a peep about that question, about the annotation, nor were any questions asked about the year or years, location, or name or names of the children so registered. Nor any questions about where they are now, what their status is, or anything else about them.
I suppose it is possible, if they wanted to, for the State Department to track down the names and location of registration, if they’ve computerized the registrations made back in the 1970s by now, since they have the parent’s name and the city of residence at the time both of immigration to Canada and becoming a Canadian, from the other documentation. However there’s no indication this has happened or will, and tracking down the children (now female married adults with surname changes, in this case) today isn’t going to be easy or even possible for the US government without access to Canadian census and other administrative data, which they don’t have and aren’t about to get. Even with male children it’s unlikely unless they have very uncommon surnames and are listed on Canada411 or some similar website.
Registering a child for USC isn’t even necessary for the child to be able to claim USC as an adult, though it makes it administratively a bit easier later (child doesn’t need to get a copy of parental birth certificates for example). Registering a child as a USC is exercising a right of US citizenship and would definitely invalidate a claim to relinquishment IF and ONLY IF it was done AFTER you say you’d relinquished by foreign naturalization. What you did BEFORE you became Canadian (or other nationality, as applicable) and still actually were a USC is IRRELEVANT to any determination of your intention to relinquish at that later date. Same as applying for and using a US passport; so what if you did that before you took out foreign nationality? The only problem for a relinquishment CLN is if you took out a US passport AFTER you became Canadian. in that case your only choice will be renunciation, not relinquishment.
I know that question is a major stumbling block for some parents, but to the best of my knowledge the concerns are groundless. The issue is to trip you up on your intentions, not to go on a goose chase for your kids.
It would have been a lot clearer if that question had been qualified by asking when you registered the kids. Perhaps the vice-consul would have rasied that question in this particular interview, if my friend hadn’t penned in that annotation. We won’t know now. Maybe someone else on this forum has gone through the process, said “yes” to that question without qualifying it, and was asked about this in the interview, which case please let us know.
Also please note that form 4079 doesn’t ask “do you have children, where and when were they born, where do they live now” etc etc. Nor for that matter does it ask any questions about marital status, past or present, though my advice if you’re female and have been married is bring along copies of marriage and divorce or name-change certificates IF there are surname-inconsistencies between your birth certificate, your landed immigrant and/or Canadian citizenship certificate, and your current driver’s license (which they ask you to bring along for photo ID). They aren’t trying to dig up all sorts of private family info on you (they don’t ask about your parents either for that matter). Don’t become paranoid and worry yourself into a frenzy over things that aren’t there.
Ditto BTW that question about whether you’ve been filing US taxes. The correct answer to that question, if you hope to get a relinquishment CLN, is NO, not yes! Note the follow-up part of that item says “if yes, please explain” in the space provided, NOT “if no, please explain.” If you thought you’d lost your USC by your intentional expatriating act, of course you haven’t been filing tax returns to the IRS, why on earth would you have? Only US citizens and residents (and some green card holders) have to file tax returns, and as a person who believed you lost your USC decades ago, not filing US tax returns is perfectly consistent with your claim to have intended to relinquish USC on taking out another nationality.
This is not legal advice, but I’m quite confident that if you seek legal advice on this, you aren’t likely to be told otherwise, if the lawyer knows what they’re talking about. However if you want to be more confident, by all means pay a qualified lawyer for an hour or so of consultation on this and other aspects of your application.
@johnnb and schubert,
That’s one way to look at it and makes sense. (I, personally, reserve the right to remain paranoid about other implications. My trust went out the window so long ago.)
Quick follow-up note to my previous post, concerning the question about tax filing:
I recall in my conversation with my friend, after the consular interview, that my friend did say “no” to the question on 4079 about filing US taxes. The consular officer didn’t make a peep about that question, either, during the interview.
Now of course my friend is still waiting for the CLN, and it ain’t over ’til it’s over (though in this case the consular officer did volunteer the opinion at the end of the interview that the CLN should be approved with no problem and would be back-dated to the date of the expatriating act some decades ago). If I hear from my friend of any problems with getting the CLN, or any attempt to go after the children in question, believe me you’ll hear from me about it on this thread …
This particular sub-thread is an excellent example of the benefit of this forum and of our sharing information about experiences. There is enough justified fear out there about this whole situation, without getting upset about things needlessly …
@tiger
One more observation and then back to my life (but I am a parent and grandparent myself and fully understand and sympathize with the concerns you and Calgary411 are expressing)
You say your sons were born and Canada and you never registered them with the US. So your honest answer, under oath, to that question on form 4079 is a resounding “no.” Your sons presumably have Canadian passports and have never applied for US passports (I certainly hope), and their Canadian passports will show Canadian birthplace(s). I don’t see a problem for them. There’s no way they can be caught out at the border (except under one circumstance, see next paragraph), nor at a bank under FATCA. When the vice-consul sees your form 4079, he or she isn’t going to ask whether you have kids if the answer to the question is “no” — it’s not any of his or her business. (I have another friend who had an interview in Toronto recently and who answered no to that question because in fact she’s never had any kids; she was never asked about children during the interview.)
Now, one word of caution. Yet another friend, who also is filing for a relinquishment CLN recently crossed the US border by car, traveling with her adult Canadian-born son to visit family in the US. The border guard saw the US birthplace on her Canadian passport and spent 15 minutes grilling her about her citizenship and lack of a US passport, and also went after her son, because unfortunately it became apparent to the border guard very quickly they were mother and son … and he made entries (she doesn’t know exactly what) on his computer, she thinks about both of them. So a word to the wise about traveling across the border with your kids … if you have a choice, don’t travel together, if you want to keep them off Uncle Sam’s radar.
Why is this conversation starting to remind me of the book “Stasiland” that I’m currently reading, about real-life experiences of citizens of the former East Germany?
My take, too, on the did-you-register-your-children question is that it is to determine if a person truly relinquished their citizenship, not to track down the children. Whether one did or not is a legitimate indicator of if one’s post-relinquishment conduct has been consistent with that of a non-citizen … but unfortunately in this current climate, it can seem to have sinister undertones.
I can’t predict the future, but at this point in time it appears that DOS does not see its mandate as using the 4079 or anything else to ferret out possible Accidental-Americans to trap in the IRS net. (If anything, they’re probably rather annoyed with IRS anyway, for giving them so much extra work to do – not only dealing with the renunciation boom but fielding irate phone calls from US persons abroad! ;))
Seriously, from a quick review of our files, I can find only one consulate that’s asked about children and that consulate has been very unique on other procedural matters as well … and, Tiger, it’s not Vancouver!
@Schubert,
Regarding your caution, that is the exact scenario I don’t want to encounter at the border. It is unlikely that my son (with a developmental disability) would be crossing with anyone else but me, his mother, born in the US, even though his Canadian passport shows that he was born in Calgary, Alberta, Canada.
[This example and not being able to benefit the same as other Canadians from his Registered Disability Savings Plan and his Tax Free Savings Accounts, discriminately, makes him (and me — and so many others) a second-class Canadian.] If you’re hearing an echo, yes, I am repeating myself — again. Sorry.
@Calgary411
You’re exactly right to be concerned about crossing the US border with your son, and I appreciate that’s the only way he’s likely going across the border — with you. This is really sad, and infuriating. I don’t want to think what it would have been like for you and him if you’d been the ones in that car a few weeks ago at Massena NY. (In case anyone was wondering what border crossing to watch out for, add that one to Blaine Washington …)
If there’s a Hell, it is going to be packed with a mixture of certain US congresscritters, IRS and DHS goons, and ex-Stasi agents. They all have some things in common, and they’re all prime roast as far as I’m concerned …
I appreciate your outrage on our behalf, Schubert! I know you’re in our corner and have been for a long time.
On a positive note, I’ve been told by my lawyer (one of the few places for my trust these days) that he will represent my son pro bono should such an even take place, so there’s some outrage there too. It is amazing how much strength I gain from those like you and like him. Thanks.
@Schubert, Pacific and Calgary
Thank you so much for your comments. I had another look at Form 4079 and I understand what you are saying. I can certainly answer NO to the question about registering my children. And it would make sense that the purpose of the question is to determine if I did anything to ‘nullify’ my relinquishing act.
As far as crossing the border with my kids, it is most unlikely to happen. We don’t holiday together so it is unlikely we would be crossing into the U.S. together. All three of my sons are encouraging me to book an appointment with the consulate sooner rather than later, in order that I hopefully can put all of this behind me.
Thanks again for all the help.
@tiger,
I agree that the comments from Schubert and pacifica are right on.
Your situation is very different from mine (and mine will be a renunciation, rather than a relinquishment since I’ve nullified my right to a relinquishment). If you and your Canadian-born sons would be unlikely to cross the border together, I think you can take some comfort in all that has been presented lately and the relinquishments we’ve seen (some proven successful). It just might be time to solidify your decision. To me, your pro’s seem to by far outweigh any of your con’s.
*The Toronto Consulate is now advising that the wait for a CLN is ten months to a year or more for people who relinquished in November 2011. It looks as if they are currently working on September 2011 applications. In November 2011, they must have been working on July 2011 applications, if they were advising people then that processing would take three to four months.
Thanks for this information on what Toronto is now advising as wait for a CLN for those who relinquished in November of 2011, Cornwall. I wonder if the difference between the recent under six month time-period for receiving CLN for a relinquishment completed at the Calgary Consulate for Dave’s June 9th report at http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/03/24/consulate-visit-report-directory/ is a greater number of relinquishers vs the time needed to process in Toronto before sending onto Washington, DC. for approval.
Just what is the cause of the differences we see from one US Consulate to another in Canada?
@Cornwall would you mind sharing some information with us as to the source of your statement about Toronto’s wait-time advice? This is quite inconsistent from what I’ve heard from two recent Toronto relinquishments, one who went to Toronto in April and the other in May. Both were told two to six months, by their respective vice-consuls (who weren’t the same person so this came from two different officers). Is your information more recent than May 31, and who is it from if you can tell us in general terms if not a name?
Thanks.
@Cornwall , bad news, but thanks for keeping us informed. Was your Toronto contact clear on if the hold up is in Toronto or Washington ?
I’ve been under the impression that the consulates send them on toWashington fairly quickly and that the delay is in Washington . I think someone posted about that quite a while ago (Schubert?) and maybe they’ll be along to comment here.
The word was “might” or “could” and there’s already a backlog, so of course I know it could well take longer. I realise one can’t easily turn around a big backlog overnight. So I wasn’t counting for sure on 2 or 3 months, but hopeful that it would be a lot less than 10 months. I saw Dave-from-Calgary’s report of his 5-month wait to be a positive sign that the pace is accelerating. But 10 months, yikes.
Hi, Schubert, was hoping you’d check in. (Looks like I was typing as you were posting.)
There is also a second person in May who was told possibly 3 months by a vice consul, so that makes 3 people. I can say that the consul I spoke with seemed very knowledgable on-the-ball in general about things. When Dave-Calgary reported last week of receiving his CLN after a 5 month wait, that sounded consistent with being part-way through trying to bring down a backlog from 1 year to 2-3 months.
Hope you can fill us in a bit more, Cornwall, so we can try to figure things out. Thanks.
@Pacifica Yes it was I who posted the statement about consulates passing the files on to Washington quickly and that the delay is in Washington and not in the consulates, also that the consulates in Canada go straight to Washington and don’t go through the embassy in Ottawa (for which we may all give great thanks, as I know you know!). My source for that was what someone you and I both know here in Ottawa was told by the vice consul during the relinquishment interview in Toronto two months ago. Hence my earlier question to Cornwall about his source and timing of his information, because what he has reported is definitely not consistent with what I’ve been hearing in the past two months nor with what you were told. Maybe things have suddenly got worse because of a huge bump in applications very recently, or maybe Cornwall’s information is dated or not as first-hand as your information and that of two people I know and have spoken with after their appointments, or whatever. I hope we can get a clearer fix on this.
The Toronto Consulate’s disclosure that the time wait for a CLN is now at least ten months (possibly a year) was a very recent one. They said they had been having an unusually high number of renunciations/relinquishments lately and that the Department of State was responsible for the processing delay. Perhaps the Consulates are unaware of what their clerks know, because it was a clerk who responded to me.
@ Cornwall. Thanks for the clarification. I guess the silver lining of sorts is the reported increase in the number of renunciations and relinquishments (which if anything is probably going to continue; I wonder if the numbers will ever get reported anywhere in the US before the election ha ha ha).
I have a friend who has an appointment in a couple of weeks, I’ll ask my friend to ask the officer at that interview for an estimate and will report back on this thread. I’m not sure whether a clerk would know better than a vice-consul, I can see an argument either way, let’s hope the clerk is wrong. However it will take whatever it will take, and as noted elsewhere, once you’ve been through the process and signed the forms that information is supposed to be accessible to US border guards so people with non-US passports showing a US birthplace and who have signed the relinquishment or the renunciation oath shouldn’t be hassled over not having a US passport, since after signing either oath one is no longer entitled to a US passport as far as I know – and renunciants who had a passport are supposed to turn it in at the interview. My assumption of non-hassling assumes you don’t get a Stasi/KGB-wanabee as your border guard … unfortunately we’re hearing occasional stories of DHS and even State personnel who sound like that.
Thanks,Cornwall and Schubert, being a Toronto client, I have a personal as well as general interest in your comments. Some good news on the R&R thread today as another Calgarian has just gotten her CLN in four months. Let’s hope that augurs well for the rest of Canada as well!
@Arrow and other West Coasters re June 7th discussion of the $450 fee, Item 10 on the list sent by theVancouver consulate.
ProbablyVancouver is just sending the same form letter to both renunciants and relinquishers and knows the fee regulation does not apply on relinquishment.
But if you’re looking for documentation to have on hand regarding that the fee only applies to 349(5), it’s in the Code of Federal Regulations, 22 CFR 22.1, Schedule of Fees for Consular Services. Line 8 is clear that the fee is for “Documentation of formal renunciation ofUS citizenship.”
http://www.uscis.gov/ilink/docView/22CFR/HTML/22CFR/0-0-0-1/0-0-0-14/0-0-0-18.html
A bargain at twice the price! some might say J but definitely no sense paying for something when not required to.
Sort of off topic – Question for the Canadians here!
What’s up with your new passport? Its so….blue?
I always thought that the old sort of black/very dark blue passport was really unique-looking and would have stood out against the blue US ones and the plethora of the EU burgundy designs. Won’t this new one look too much like a US passport from afar now? At least yours has a golden text imprint which looks nicer!
I happened to just come across this by chance and it looks like they are going to start issuing these shortly in the following months.
*At first glance, those look like American passports from a distance, but when an INS Border guard sees them they should know exactly from the Royal Coat of Arms that it’s not a US passport. And that’s the most important thing. If they can’t tell the US Eagle Crest from the Canadian Royal Coat of Arms, then they shouldn’t be in INS service.
My daughter formally renounced her US citizenship in London on 13 June. Here are the details for your consulate report directory. What may be interesting to others is that she received an unsolicited “comfort letter” acknowledging her renunciation and the preparation of a CLN.
She began the process on 16 March 2012 with an email inquiry to the US citizen services section of the US Embassy in London. They responded on 22 March with the following list of documents that she would have to provide.
1. Copies of most recent U.S. passport and all current foreign passports.
2. Copies of all Certificates of Naturalization or Certificates of Citizenship for any country, including the United States (if applicable).
3. Copy of U.S. Birth Certificate or U.S. Consular Report of Birth Abroad (if applicable).
4. Copies of all marriage certificates, divorce decrees or other change of name documents (if applicable).
5. Completed DS-4079.
6. Completed Renunciation Questionnaire.
She sent those documents in an email on 30 March, and received the following email on 16 April.
Subject: RE: Renunciation information request
Date: Mon, 16 Apr 2012
From: londonrenunciations@state.gov
To: XXX
Dear Ms. XXX,
Thank you for your e-mail/fax with attachments. If any further documents are needed we will contact you.
We have placed you on the waiting list for an appointment and should be contacting you within the
next couple weeks with a date.
We hope this is responsive to your inquiry.
Passport & Citizenship Unit
American Citizen Services
American Embassy, London
Upon further contact, an informal telephone interview was scheduled for 6 June, followed by an in-person interview in London on 13 June.
This is her report of the two interviews. The telephone interview lasted 10 minutes, and the in-person interview 1 hour.
Informal telephone interview, 6 June
My experience with the informal telephone interview started strangely enough. I was given a number with the name of the officer I was supposed to speak to, and when I called a person answered without identifying that I had even reached the Embassy. At first he didn’t understand the name I had given him or why I was ringing, but I was eventually put through. The officer dealing with my renunciation identified herself and the role that she would have. She explained what the phone interview would consist of in a formal but friendly manner.
Part of the interview involved confirming the information that I had already sent in: my name, how I received US citizenship, when I last lived in the US, how long have I been in the UK, did my parents or siblings live in the US, did I have any relatives living there, did I visit frequently, did I have any children and did they have US citizenship (nothing about my husband)? She also asked if I was doing this voluntarily without coercion and whether I understood what I was doing. They were fairly straightforward questions with no real explanations or reasons or even further information needed. It was all very basic.
She then went through what renouncing would mean and its potential implications. She then said that she was satisfied by my reasons, that I had given it a lot of thought and that I was serious about renouncing. She said was happy to proceed with the next step, explaining what would happen in the final, in-person interview, where to go, what to bring, who I would be speaking to and what they would do (looking at the originals of the paperwork that I had supplied previously) and that I would be meeting her to verify and sign the paperwork and give the oath. Overall the final interview should only take an hour. She also asked if I was coming on my own or with a lawyer (!?!). I thought “I wasn’t aware I needed one,” but replied I would be on my own.
All in all it was fairly easy. In my case, I suppose it was fairly obvious as to why I wanted to renounce. Shedid ask near the end how long I had been considering renouncing which struck me as odd because it was near the end of the interview. I didn’t really have an answer prepared for this question so gave what I hope was a fairly bland reply. The phone call lasted no more than 10 minutes. My final interview is next week, to which apparently am not allowed to take a mobile phone, with no facilities nearby as to where I can leave it. With young children at home, this makes me very uneasy and seems very unnecessary. I now have to think about what I will do.
In-person interview, 13 June
Before the final in-person interview, I checked to make sure I knew where to go, and was frustrated to read again that no mobile phones or other electrical items and no large bags, etc., were allowed in the embassy. A list was given of locations where you could securely leave your things. I wasn’t sure whether that meant my handbag or not but decided since I had to leave my phone best to leave my handbag as well to make sure I wasn’t turned away. Travelling from an hour away, there was no way I was going the whole trip without my handbag and phone, especially with young children at home. It was bad enough having to leave my phone in Left Luggage for a couple of hours. To safely leave my handbag at a train station nowhere near the embassy cost £8.50 and not the £5.50 as said on the list. Funnily enough, the staff member at left luggage said to me – “Going to the American Embassy then.” I hadn’t even said a word.
I finally arrived at the embassy with only a vague memory of where I was supposed to go and what to expect, only be told to go away and come back as they were on their lunch break. I returned, waited to go through security who didn’t seem to understand why I was there, never mind my repeating “renunciation” several times. “Pronunciation?” they asked.
I then followed another lady to a desk where I was given a ticket with a number. I thought I had an interview. I walked into the waiting room to see other people with large bags, suitcases even. They eventually called my name up to the window where an English person asked to see my documents, and said he would photocopy them while I was to purchase an envelope to have my certificate and other papers couriered back to me. So I went to purchase this envelope at £15 from the desk that gave me the ticket number. I went back to wait until I was called to another window. This time I spoke to the officer I had spoken to the week before for the informal telephone interview. She again simply asked background details such as dates I lived in the US to confirm what I had said over the phone but did not ask why I wanted to renounce- I have never been asked this question through the whole process, which I found interesting.
I had to read and sign the list of potential consequences. I signed my name on various papers, even had to write my name in cursive which I haven’t done since I was 13, before reading the oath of renunciation. She asked if I could see the American flag behind her to which I said yes. Apparently, I needed to see the flag. While I paid the USD 450 fee at the next window, she made sure all my signatures were OK and then she handed me a “comfort” letter — with my American passport taken, she said that I needed something to explain my situation if I had to go back to the US while waiting for my certificate of loss of nationality. Overall she was very polite, even friendly with no judgement whatsoever.
She then explained the next step, ie that it would take around 6 weeks for the paperwork to be cleared by Department of State in Washington, DC, but that it would all be backdated to today, the day I renounced. I was also given a FAQ sheet to do with taxes and told that the embassy have nothing to do with taxes, but that there was an IRS department within the Embassy. I was then free to leave- no longer a US citizen, paperwork pending.
The text of the “comfort” letter follows:
Embassy of the United States of America
Passport & Citizenship Unit
London
Dear Ms. XXX,
This letter is to acknowledge receipt of your United States Passport number XXX which was issued in your name on XXX, 19XX. You have surrendered this passport in connection with your formal renunciation of United States citizenship. A Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN) has been prepared in your name and will be forwarded to the Department of State in Washington D.C. for approval, in accordance with the provisions of Section 349(a)(5) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA).
When the CLN has been approved by the Department of State, you will be furnished with a certified copy of the document.
If you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact this office. The telephone number is XXX.
Sincerely,
XXX
Vice Consul
My daughter can now move on to the final step, which is to complete the infamous IRS form 8854. She is not sure when she can do this, since the 2012 version is not yet available.
Could one of the IBS regulars or observers more expert than we confirm our interpretation of the 8854 dual citizen exception and our subsequent logic, as laid out below?
My daughter was a dual national at birth, born in France. We lived in the US for a total of 9 years between 1979 and 1991. We moved to Europe in 1991, when she was 13 years old. She has not lived in the US since that time, and has lived in Great Britain since 1999. Her spouse is English, and their children have English and French nationalities. She does not work.
1. We have looked at the convoluted question 3 of Part IV of the 8854 (2011 version): “Did you become at birth a US citizen and a citizen of another country, and do you continue to be a citizen of, and taxed as a resident of, that other country?” We believe that she can answer YES to this question, as Great Britain and France are part of the European Union, and are the same for the purposes of this question. My daughter thus falls under the exception for dual citizens and would not be a “covered expatriate.” Correct?
2. As a dual citizen exception, she would NOT have to complete the balance sheet in Part V of the 8854. Correct?
3. Even if she is a dual citizen exception, she must certify on question 6 of Part IV of the 8854 that she has complied with all of her US tax obligations for the 5 preceding tax years. She can answer YES to this question because she has been a mother to three children, has not worked and has had no reportable income above USD 9350 in any of the last five years. Correct?
Once more, thanks to the IBS site and to all its contributors. It has been an invaluable resource for us as we work our way through this (disagreeable) process.
@Lord Jim,
I would say your daughter can honestly answer that she has complied with all of her US tax obligations for the past five years (which are none).
Here is further discussion on 8854 requirements from Phil Hodgen http://hodgen.com/the-exit-tax-paperwork-for-people-who-have-never-filed/. It certainly affects a lot of very unsuspecting and otherwise Accidental Americans.
Congratulations to your daughter. May she have clear days ahead, getting all this behind her.
And, of course, thanks for letting this process, your comments and questions be part of the discussion at Isaac Brock.
@Lord Jim,
Thank you and your daughter for her consulate report, which I put into the directory. This is a terrifically thorough report, gives a really clear picture of theLondon procedure start to finish.
I particularly liked reading thatLondon provides the person a letter indicating that the renunciation took place.
Congratulations to your daughter, and thanks again to both of you!