Last night I found myself in a discussion with a U.S. dual citizen. Basically, what she told me was that since she learned of the IRS assault against dual citizens that she felt that “her life had been stolen from her”. She listed a list of health and emotional problems. Furthermore like “a deer frozen in the headlights” she doesn’t know what to do. She is reaching retirement age and fears that her retirement savings will be taken. (By the way, she didn’t know about FATCA. I didn’t add to her misery.)
The “emotional and life aspects” of (what has become) the “War of 2012” are rarely mentioned. How has this affected your life?
I just want to say how moved I am by the stories in this thread. These glimpses into the real-life human consequences of such draconian laws and policies are what the world needs to hear loud and clear. I am particularly struck by the astonishing story of Just Me, who has already passed through the eye of a storm most of us can’t even imagine. That he can retain so much hope and still find the good in people who may once have personified the devil is a testament to the resilience of the human spirit. I salute you, sir, and am grateful for you sharing your story with us.
My own story is still unfolding. I too have been on an emotional rollercoaster ride since first learning about this whole thing in late September of last year, just as my sister unwittingly entered the 2011 OVDI. The very first night I did not sleep at all, and my wife woke up to find one extremely distraught husband going on about possibly never being able to go back to the US, or being bankrupted, or even having our children possibly caught-up in this Orwellian nightmare. Fortunately, within days of further research (a crash course that put any of my university cramming sessions to shame) I determined that at least our kids were in the clear – this cancer was not going to spread to another generation, and that was a huge relief.
About this time I came across the Expat Forum, where I first met many of the fine people who are now on this site. The timing was excellent, in that several of us were independently trying to sort through the finer points of relinquishment vs. renunciation. In the subsequent weeks I began to peel away the layers of contemporaneous statutes and case law until I found the one reference that could support the case for relinquishment I hoped I could make. It was like finding the proverbial needle in a haystack and I literally did a little dance of joy when I found it!
Since then, we “relinquishants” been trying to fill in various blanks to ensure we’re fully prepared before going in to announce our long-ago relinquishments. Now, the time is nearly here for me to take that final step, and I admit I’m rather nervous about how it will go. One thing is clear, however – I can’t take much more of the fear and uncertainty that comes from waiting and wondering. At least the DOS part of my process will soon be underway and I’ll still have some time to deal with the IRS notification. Assuming all goes well, I should hopefully have all this behind me within a year or so. I count myself extremely lucky that I even have a valid relinquishment case, as others in my family do not. Who knew that the choices we made so long ago would one day become the narrative determining our ability, or inability to cross this invisible Berlin Wall? It’s all been so surreal and crazymaking, but I’m just so grateful to be able to share this experience with such sympathetic fellow travellers. I am grateful to all of you for your ongoing support, and there are thousands out there who are going to need it even more. I promise to stay involved, even once I’ve received that Golden Wonka Ticket – I mean CLN. This truly is a war, and we can’t just run away from the moral duty that’s calling us, and keeping us engaged.
Janeb wrote: “The problem, of course, is FATCA, if and when the banks start asking questions about citizenship. This issue has hit home recently.”
Let’s suppose that we do not talk the Canadian government into forbidding the banks to hand over our personal information to the United States, what then? (1) You said you don’t need to go back to the US. (2) The Canadian government said it won’t collect FBAR fines. (3) the only problem then is withholdings of US source income of 30%. So you divest yourself of US source investments, as many of us have already done. Do it before the rush to the doors (I would imagine that the rush will occur in the final six months before full implementation of FATCA, i.e., Dec 31, 2013).
@deckard1138
Thanks for filling me in on some of the details of your story. I have seen your posts and was wondering more about you. It is amazing how your stomach begins to toughen up when you have been on that emotional rollercoaster ride long enough!
I don’t understand the fine details of the differences between relinquishment and renunciation, but glad you found the needle in a haystack for you to escape entrapment behind that invisible Berlin Wall. Reassuring to know that not all loopholes bought with lobbying money belong just to the Very Rich, and those Supreme court ordained super people called Corporations.
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What remains, after all the uncertainty and anguish, is the loathing and resentment. It would be interesting if someone could make a table on the value of image, and just how much the U.S. has lost in this regard in the past two years, among its very own citizens no less. Then we would need another table for loss of goodwill, and another for loss of manpower, for as far as I can make out among my acquaintances, most of their now adult, highly-trained and educated, multi-lingual dual- citizenship children are choosing to renunciate, as they are in no way in agreement to have their businesses, houses, pensions, etc., subject to U.S. tax, nor are they willing to spend any amount of time or expense on international tax experts. Then we might also look into the effects on loss of U.S. exports, since it is becoming so expensive and complicated for an American employee to live abroad. Then we should hold all of these negatives up to the couple of billion they have been able to steal, literally, from law-abiding citizens living abroad. Bottom line? The U.S. is losing, and badly.
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I just found out that the IRS considers me an American. I was born to Canadian parents in 1957 when my father was studying abroad. As I returned to Canada when I was a baby and have never done anything to become an American I assumed that I was a Canadian. I was hoping to retire in a few years and have been busy accumulating RRSPs. I am horrified to realize that I may lose a good portion of my life savings. What kind of penalties are people incurring? What steps should I take? As I have a business my taxes are complicated. Does anyone have an accountant that has successfully filed a US return?
dianne, Be very very careful. Many accountants and lawyers may give you overwhelming, incomprehensible bad advice designed to stuff their pockets. Depending on the circumstances, your best choice could be to forget the whole thing. The governing factors include what ties you have, if any, to the US. If none, you are safe.
@dianne
Don’t panic. Try to understand your situation calmly. First the Government of Canada will NOT collect any unpaid taxes on behalf of the IRS on a citizen of Canada. Second the Government of Canada will NOT collect at all something know as the FBAR penalty under any circumstances. FBAR is the penalty in question people have been hit hard by. Thirdly decades long standing Canadian court precedent prohibits the IRS from directly using Canadian courts to make enforce any tax claims.
Now do you only have a Canadian passport? I am assuming yes. Then have you had difficulties traveling the US and second do have a need to go the US. If not the best thing is probably try to avoid travel to the US until this whole thing is worked out.
@Dianne, I urge you to go slowly, research and investigate, and don’t make any rash decisions out of fear. Make an informed decision, depending upon your personal situation. There are many ways to go, from doing nothing and waiting for our Canadian government to step up and protect us (stronger than just the CRA will not collect taxes or reporting penalties on Can citizens (if liability rose while a Can citizen – which seems to be true in your case). If you’ve been reading on this site, you’ll know that some are doing quiet disclosures, some have entered OVD programs (a complete nightmare solution in my mind), etc. There will be others who will pop in and give you advice based on their situation, and I don’t really have that since I am choosing to stand firm that I am a Canadian, not US person (I became Can in 76).
This is a fearful situation but I think you will find the support and the advice on this site very helpful.
@dianne, my story is similar to yours. You and I ARE! Canadians. You and I were Canadians since birth, I think it may be even better if your birth was registered as a birth abroad. But you are a Canadian, and Canada will not collect taxes or fines for the US, on Canadian soil at least you are 100% safe! The next thing to consider is what to do with your US citizenship and US taxes. For that I would advise you to take some time. Be very skeptical of what any so called professional may tell you, and do not go near OVDI.
@dianne
– Whatever you do, don’t go into OVDI. It’s a very expensive amnesty program for criminal tax evaders.
– Tim raises some valuable points. Basically the IRS can’t get at you and the CRA won’t help them. Do you need to go to the US? If not you can probably just ignore the whole issue.
– An alternative to ignoring the issue (which I think is a viable and sensible option for many people, some would disagree) is relinquishing, as distinct from renouncing, your US citizenship. This site has lots of information on relinquishing. The advantage of doing it this way is that if the relinquishing date is far enough in the past, you don’t have to go through the spectacular hassle of filing five years of back US tax returns.
@dianne, ovdi is not designed for people like you. It is not designed to take into account your situation or facts. Don’t do anything in panic – that can just lead deeper into the morass.
@dianne
Please listen carefully to what you are being told above, and don’t spend a lot of money with tax attorneys or CPAs who could be looking for new revenue streams. If you are concerned, there is enough information on this site to educate you and ease your mind.
If you have no ties to the US in property or bank accounts, then the IRS doesn’t have enough resources to bother with you, so I would not worry at this stage. However, it probably does make sense to educate yourself about about the stupidity that is going on in America right now related to Citizenship taxation. Learn what if any actions you can take or avoid to assure you are NEVER considered a U.S. Citizen. One never knows what stupid thing the U.S. Congress might do in the future.
Dianne – There are thousands, likely tens of thousands, of people in your situation. Eventually there will have to be some kind of “reset” to deal with unilateral US changes in scope, application, and enforcement. Canadian federal politicians are aware of this. The question is how this will get done, and how long it will take to get done. The good news, already delivered, is that Canada will not assist the US against you. The bad news is that crossing the border may become problematic for an extended and indefinite period of time. In the meantime, the US will compound a public relations disaster that may wreak havoc on the benefits it derives from disproportionate Canadian travel to the United States. Congratulations on becoming an “early aware” and joining the bleeding-edge Brockers who watch this intricate craziness spiral like a crippled juggernaut toward whatever conclusion.
I just read through this thread which I had missed having come late to the IBS table and I think how lucky that at my worst point all that happened to me was a total lack of appetite for 2 days, accompanied by no sleep. Ever gone walking well after midnight just to settle your body enough to be able to lie down again, a bit calmer but still not calm enough to sleep? Well I did. I decided at the onset of the panic attack to do a lemon and water cleanse (nothing else was going to go down anyway) and to keep reading at IBS and eventually I pulled out of it — to a point. I still have bad moments where my brain has to struggle for control over my body. (My brain knows panic is stupid.) And yes, I anticipate many more minor panic attacks to come because this is something that can’t be fixed instantly — no matter how much I might wish it so. It will take years before my husband and I can totally free ourselves from the tentacles of the Uncle Sam Tax Squid. We have to extract ourselves slowly and carefully and half blindly because we will never master the complexities of US tax code and we can’t afford to hire an “expert” to help. If we dare move too quickly those tentacles will squeeze even harder. It will end when my husband is finally able to renounce his US citizenship and if all goes well (knocking on my little wooden head) we will then be able to celebrate and say, “Free at last, free at last. Thank God Almighty, we are free at last.” I hope our freedom isn’t just a dream because the thought of that celebration in the future is what will keep us going.
All the stories here touch me deeply and I wish I were tax-savvy enough to find you all a ticket on the tax freedom train. Sadly I am not but you know I’m wishing you all the best and hoping you find your way to the train station using the knowledge and guidance from the combined insights and talents at IBS.
For the first time in my life I am getting fat (at age 46). I’ve always been thin and never had to think about what I ate. I’ve been reading about people on this site who are losing weight but I’m going in the other direction.
The anxiety/depression medication I started taking 8 months ago has helped alot but it’s also caused me to eat my way to a 15 pound weight gain. I may have to go on a diet for the very first time.
I know the weight will come off fast once I stop taking the medication but I don’t know when that will be since I’m still anxious and feel I need to continue being medicated.
I hope there’s a special place in hell for Congress people who enact laws that affect foreigners.
@Em – FWIW you can file five years backward and renounce –
@ A broken man on a Halifax pier
My husband and I are a mixed nationality couple living in Canada. I have no US citizenship to renounce. I am Canadian. I am returning an expired Green Card from our past life together in the USA. That’s it for me. My American husband is getting Canadian citizenship (an 18 month process). He is current on all his US tax filing and FBAR’s. We hope he can be CLN’d by 2015 when his American passport expires so he can just hand it in and not have to renew it.
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