Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

1,795 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)”

  1. @Authentic1213, Lawyers are happy to take your money for preparing paperwork. $500-750 per hour. But have a look at the form yourself and decide whether you can fill it out. The underlying motivation in DS 4079 is to determine if any action on the part of the relinquisher demonstrates and lack of intent to relinquish–i.e., actions speak louder than words. See: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/16/from-the-archive-did-you-relinquish-here-are-some-proofs-that-the-state-department-uses/

  2. @ Authentic 1213,

    It depends if the consulate wants you to send them the forms in advance. At most places, you just show up with them.

    With most, you just book the appointment on line and bring your forms with you when you go to the consulate. If so, when you check in with the clerk upon your arrival, s/he takes them then and the vice consul reads them while you’re sitting in the waiting area.

    You may find out more about your local consulate and people’s experieces with it in the Consulate Report Directory.

    Although not required, it seems that most relinquishers submit a statement to describe that their relinquishing act was intentional and illustrate that their post-relinquishment behaviour was consistent with lack of US citizenship, basically you can expand on and bolster your 4079 in it.

    It’s extremely rare for a person to use a lawyer for their CLN application, as it’s a pretty straightforward administrative procedure, so not needed. FWIW, I met with the clerk for 5-10 minutes and with the consul for about 10 minutes, very straightforward, very pleasant.

  3. I thought this was interesting. I e-mailed the Halifax Consulate if you need a US passport to enter the US if you relinquished in the past or if you should can should enter using a Canadian (passport), but you have not applied for a CLN yet. They admitted they didn’t know the answer…specifically they said:

    This was the main and important part of there response

    “At the time of a person’s appearance in front of a Consular officer, the officer will review the individual’s case with regard to intention to retain U.S. citizenship and forward his/her recommendation and all supporting documentation to the Department of State in Washington, DC for final determination and approval . However, it should be noted, failure to discharge the duties of citizenship does not necessarily establish that intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship was present.

    “As you have not formerly made application for a Certificate of Loss of Nationality nor received a Certificate of Loss of Nationality issued by the Department of State, we are therefore unable to respond to your questions regarding your intentions or direct you on your entry into the United States. You should be aware that each case regarding intention of loss of U.S. nationality is different and does not allow us to predetermine intent. As each individual case is different, it is difficult…”

  4. In other words…”we may give you a hard time on the fact that you used/renewed a U.S. Passport after you relinquish and recognizing your intent, but we’re not even sure what you should do if you need to go to the US on an urgent trip and don’t have time to get a CLN in the interim”

  5. @Authenic
    I was one of the ones that used a lawyer for relinquishment and found that it wasn’t at all necessary. If anything it slowed the process down. I really got no information from the lawyer that I didn’t have from this site. I did have a couple of wrinkles in my documentation that the lawyer gave me some reassurance about, but as far as filling out 4079, there is nothing there that is difficult or complicated. Couldn’t you get your Oath of Allegiance from your personnel file with the Federal government? Doesn’t look like you retired all that long ago.

  6. @BenPloni: one guy who relinquished when he naturalised in Japan says that the US will issue travel letters to people who have applied for a CLN but not received it yet to allow them to travel to the US (see this old post).

    I’ve not yet seen any official confirmation of this procedure in the Foreign Affairs Manual or elsewhere, so probably it’s done only on a post-by-post and maybe even case-by-case basis. I’m not sure what they would do with someone who asked for a letter like that but never applied for a CLN yet.

  7. I didn’t know that the 450. US fee for renunciation was considered an ‘interim’ cost. Now, it appears to have been permanently enshrined:

    “Under new consular fees published Thursday in the Federal Register, the cost of processing a formal renunciation of U.S. citizenship skyrocketed from $0 to $450. The announcement locks in fee hikes that had been proposed in 2010 and instituted on an interim basis.

    The State Department doesn’t say how or why it calculated the cost. Citizenship is free for most Americans who are accorded the privilege at birth. The department says only that it “has decided that the renunciant should pay this fee at the visit during which he or she swears the oath of renunciation.”…. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/state-department-boosts-passport-fees-sets-cost-citizenship-article-1.1016265

  8. First time poster here. First off, massive thank you to the folks responsible for instigating and maintaining this site, and to those posting useful comments,articles,etc. You people are lifesavers in a tumultuous sea of .

    Now, would anyone be able to point me to a lawyer, preferably in the Vancouver area, who can assist in renunciation? Or point me to resources that may help me find such a person? The situation is not entirely straightforward for a number of reasons, so the use of a lawyer would be beneficial. I’m not sure how realistic this is, but the hope would be to find a local lawyer that knows the ins-and-outs of doing this.

  9. This is not directly a question on relinquishment or renouncement so apologies in advance, and if there is a better place to post my question please point me to it.

    The question is concerning inadvertent US citizenship. The situation involves a child born in Canada to a Canada-US dual citizen father and a Canadian mother. Father and mother live common-law, so the child was born “out-of-wedlock”. Child has always been a resident of Canada and has not done anything suggestive of US citizenship.

    I have tried to read thru the US government documentation on this, but it I can’t seem to nail down the answer. I *believe* the child has at least a claim to US citizenship. What I am unsure of is whether the child is an automatic American. Needless to say, the hope is that the child is Canadian only.

    Any pointers would be appreciated. TIA.

  11. @tdott
    Although I have not used an immigration lawyer myself, the following Vancouver immigration lawyer was recommended to me by three different individuals whom I completely trust. His name is Ronald Zisman. I no longer have contact information (as I made the decision to ‘go it alone’,) however, I do remember he is married to another lawyer (Elaine Reynolds of Legacy Lawyers – a trust attorney). Ms. Reynolds has also come highly recommended and I have referred ‘dual’ U.S./ Canadian citizens to her firm and they have been very, very pleased.
    Good Luck.

  12. @tdott,

    You may have already read here, but my reading is the child would not automatically be a US citizen (lucky child!): http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_5199.html

    Note difference:

    MAY ACQUIRE U.S. CITIZENSHIP for a person born out-of-wedlock to a U.S. citizen father…(Birth Abroad Out-of-Wedlock to a U.S. Citizen Father – “New” Section 309(a) )

    VS

    ACQUIRES U.S. CITIZENSHIP for a child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent… (Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock)

    Birth Abroad Out-of-Wedlock to a U.S. Citizen Father – “New” Section 309(a)

    A person born abroad out-of-wedlock to a U.S. citizen father may acquire U.S. citizenship under Section 301(g) of the INA, as made applicable by the “new” Section 309(a) of the INA provided:
    1.A blood relationship between the person and the father is established by clear and convincing evidence;
    2.The father had the nationality of the United States at the time of the person’s birth;
    3.The father was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions prior to the child’s birth for five years, at least two of which were after reaching the age of 14.
    4.The father (unless deceased) has agreed in writing to provide financial support for the person until the person reaches the age of 18 years, and
    5.While the person is under the age of 18 years — ◦the person is legitimated under the law of his/her residence or domicile,
    ◦the father acknowledges paternity of the person in writing under oath, or
    ◦the paternity of the person is established by adjudication of a competent court.

    Birth Abroad Out-of-Wedlock to a U.S. Citizen Father – “Old” Section 309(a) of the INA- A child born out-of-wedlock to a U.S. citizen father may acquire U.S. citizenship under the former Section 301(a)(7) of the INA as made applicable by the “old” Section 309(a) of the INA if the U.S. citizen father, prior to the child’s birth, had been physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for ten years, five of which were after the age of 14, and if the paternity of the child had been established by legitimation prior to the child reaching the age of 21. The “old” Section 309(a) of the INA is applicable to individuals who were 18 on November 14, 1986 and to individuals whose paternity had been established by legitimation prior to that date. Individuals who were at least 15 on November 14, 1986, but under the age of 18, could opt to have their claim determined in accordance with the provisions of either the “old” or the “new” Section 309(a).

    COMPARED TO:

    Birth Abroad to One Citizen and One Alien Parent in Wedlock

    A child born abroad to one U.S. citizen parent and one alien parent acquires U.S. citizenship at birth under Section 301(g) of the INA provided the U.S. citizen parent was physically present in the United States or one of its outlying possessions for the time period required by the law applicable at the time of the child’s birth. (For birth on or after November 14, 1986, a period of five years physical presence, two after the age of fourteen, is required. For birth between December 24, 1952 and November 13, 1986, a period of ten years, five after the age of fourteen, is required for physical presence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions to transmit U.S. citizenship to the child.) The U.S. citizen parent must be genetically related to the child to transmit U.S. citizenship.

  13. Wow! Talk about rapid responses. Thanks to Em, tiger, and calgary411.

    @calgary411
    I have indeed seen those excerpts and the child (born in 1990s) would seem to fall under the “new” section. What I haven’t been able to understand is what exactly “may acquire U.S. citizenship” means. It seems to suggest that something has to be actively done to trigger the acquisition of US citizenship (i.e. US citizenship is not automatic). However, after spending enough time reading about the kafkaesque world of US taxation and penalties, I really don’t want to take anything for granted. It would be a real shame to have this come back to bite the kid, say, 20 years from now because of lack of diligence now.

  14. We had internet connection problems here.
    I should first say a big thank you to everyone who is helping me out ; a lot.
    I probably should have told you in my first letter that my Consulate meeting should be in Halifax. It seems that they have a good record lately from what I read on this site.And they are the closest. I did look at DS-4079, and I should be ok. Hijacked2012 , I had checked with my former employer but I did not think of my personal file. Good idea. I’ll do it if I’m not lucky with a library search. I’ll let you know. I may not be the Clint Eastwood type ( Petros ) but you people are making my day.
    Thanks again.

  15. @tdott,

    This falls under Department of State. You might be able to get clarification from a US consulate. You (or someone) might send an email here: Calgary-ACS@state.gov They gave me plenty of information about not being able to renounce US citizenship for my son born in Canada to US parents (and he, indeed did acquire it / I didn’t have to do anything) — essentially a Parent, Guardian or Trustee does not have the right to renounce US citizenship on behalf of their developmentally delayed or otherwise mentally incapacipated family member.

    Any instruction the US gives is obfuscation: the act or an instance of making something obscure, dark, or difficult to understand.

  16. @tdott, Don’t worry. If you do not want your child to have US citizenship you need do nothing. He is only a US citizen if you make an effort vis-a-vis the State Department. Consider the case of Russel David Green: http://www.halfkorean.com/?p=6867 His biological father hasn’t made an effort and the US wants to deport him from the US because though brought over by an adoption agency, he failed to be adopted. Half Koreans sent back to Korean often only last a year or two before death.

  17. I was rereading Petros’ CLN and accompanying letter from the Consulate. Petros, I was wondering if anyone else has reported receiving a letter like that saying the date of loss of citizenship was the date they went to the Consulate? If that is generalized, maybe they are trying to show they agree with IRS, who seem to think the date of the act of expatriation and the date of loss of citizenship are not the same.

    Not a reason for anyone to worry, though. Any one looking at the CLN would conclude that the date of loss of citizenship is the date of expatriation.

  18. @Old&Simple…

    The date the Department of state recognizes the date of relinquishment is the date the expatriating act occurred–i.e. naturalization and/or oath.

    The date the IRS recognizes depends for tax purposes depends. First you look at the date the CLN states as the date of expatriation.

    1. If the date is on or before June 3, 2004, The date the IRS says you relinquished is the same as the date of the CLN. (then it’s 10 year taxation afterwards if you’re rich) (HIPPA/Pre-HIPPA rules)

    2. If the date on the CLN is June 4-2004 to June 16-2008, The Date you expatriate is the date you go to and inform the embassy/consulate, but your tax expatriation date is not valid till you send in form 8854. So they can legally tax you indefinitely until inform the embassy AND file 8854. (then it’s the 10 year taxation if you’re rich)(AJCA rules)

    3. If the date on the CLN is June 17-2008 or afterwards, the IRS date you expatriate is also the date you inform the embassy/consulate, but they can no longer tax you afterwards. (except the exit tax if you’re rich or fail to certify 5 years compliance)

  19. @Josh, I renounced 3 months ago and have heard nothing yet. I was told that Berne had 1300 on their waiting list, so it could be down to sheer numbers. The banks in Switzerland have given US citizens living there a perfect reason to renounce; they have refused to do business with us, I suspect when FATCA gets going many banks in other countries will follow suit, some German banks already have. The word is out that Americans are toxic and having them as customers is not worth the risk.

  22. @Heidi, et al:
    Saturday’s Tages-Anzeiger has an interview with the US Ambassador to Switzerland, Don Beyer. Here’s a relevant excerpt on the topic of Americans giving up their US citizenship (translated). He puts a positive spin on it that there are plenty more waiting to get in the door to that heaven on earth, the USA:

    TA: “Americans in Switzerland are increasing renouncing their US citizenship because they consider the annual tax filing as harassment.
    Beyer: “Tax complications are the most common complaint that we hear from our expats, and Switzerland is also the country in which most Americans give up their citizenship. This has probably to do with the high standard of living. On the other hand, in the last year 11’000 Swiss applied for a green card. And ten million around the world.”

    According to the interview, he will be leaving his post in May to return to the US. Although the ACA gave him an award for his service and I think he was more engaged than his two Bush predecessors, who were lousy, it was under his watch that at least 500 Americans gave up their citizenship in 2012 alone and, as you report, 1’300 were recently in queue to renounce.

    http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz/standard/Amerikaner-sorgen-sich-weniger-um-hohe-Bankerloehne/story/13958083

  23. @Heidi, commenters can’t amend posts themselves but an editor will have to do it. We were using a plugin that allowed commenters to change their comments for about 30 minutes. But that plugin was deemed unsafe by the hosting service and removed. Eventually, they told me how to remove plugins, when I did not have access to the dashboard, by using an FTP program and changing the directory for the plugin’s files–that is how I regained access and control of the blog.

    The problem with the third party plugins, as I see it, is that they are not keeping up with the new versions of WordPress.org, the main software that we are using. As I updated the software, which you have to do in this ever-changing environment, the plugins become unstable and the site shut down.

  24. @Old and simple, Tom Benedict has it right, I am pretty sure. As for my situation it was only a 38 day lag between expatriation and tax expatriation. But it doesn’t matter, because I didn’t make significant income between February 28 and April 7.

    I have written about how this contradiction in the law is essentially untenable. See the following:

    Freedom of Emmigration in East-West Trade, USC 19 § 2432 (expatriation is a fundamental right)
    Is the taxation of US persons abroad constitutional?
    The stalker: divorce from the United States is a messy process
    Civil Disobedience, FBAR and Forms 8854 and 8938
    The right of expatriation II: The Ninth Amendment
    The right of expatriation

  25. I suppose some of the answers could be found amonst the hundreds of threads back, but if anyone is so kind as to answer from their memory:

    Given that one has done their taxes as best as they could, without having done the FBARS. What of the renunciation requirement that one is up to date with taxes.

    Is one safe once one gets the CLN? The renunciation cannot be revoked, I assume?

    If the IRS becomes unhappy at some Point between the renunciation ceremony and receipt of CLN, is one in the worst Place of 2 situations?

    From what I’ve read Before, it is only a signature on the 8874 paper, which is seldom checked?

    What is the typical time frame, from first request til appointment til appointment til CLN?

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