Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
@ Jeremy…some have suggested that you could explain that you thought you had to get into the US using a US passport was a necessary requirement until you received a CLN–or you’d have trouble with CBP. Pacfica said Halifax said it wasn’t a problem and Vancouver clarified with HQ in washington that it wasn’t an issue.You may be able to convince them that you misunderstood the requirement–that regardless, you intended to lose your us citizenship at the time..it’s worth a shot. Since you haven’t filed 2012 yet, you’d have to file 2011 for the part of the year you were a US citizen anyway before you naturalized, so that shouldn’t be a problem.
I’ve been looking at the Montreal US Consulate General website to find out how to make an appointment. Which is better, contact through email or use the automated online appointment service?
It seems I saw here that the appointment should be with notarial services, but they are under the heading of services for US citizens. I suppose I have to go through them anyway, even though I’m an old relinquisher?
If I use the automatic service, will there be a place to explain I am making the appointment for a CLN?
*Use the automated system. No need to tell them what it’s for in advance.
@Old and Simple,
You actually use the “American Citizenship Services” department of the consulate to apply for your CLN. It sounds weird for us old relinquishers because the whole point is “We’re not!”
I don’t know about booking at Montréal. I know that at Toronto, you just book under “Notarial and other Services” and show up. A vice consul there had told me on the phone that’s all you have to do, and indeed that’s all there was to it. When I got there they didn’t bat an eye and got right down to business,which has been reported by the others who relinquished there as well.
Montréal’s on-line booking form appears to be the standard form, used by Toronto and many consulates for expatriation bookings, that doesn’t have a place to explain what “notarial and other service” you want. Of course, for the citizenship question on the ACS booking form, just put Canadian.
Thanks Duke and Pacifica.
This may show up twice…I started to ask this and then lost the text somehow.
Just wanted to know if I was right in assuming I should not fill in the box asking for my US passport number. My old 1976 passport expired years ago and I only kept it as proof of my landing date. Should I turn it in at the appontment?
In Montreal, there’s not much of a wait to get an appointment…a couple of weeks.
@ Jeremy,
Performance of an act indicative of US citizenship does not necessarily invalidate a relinquishment. A lot depends on why one performed it, as BenPloni has pointed out. Circumstances and motivation play a role in evaluating acts indicative of US citizenship.
Overall, the determination of loss of citizenship is based on the balance of probabilities, no one factor necessarily being determinative, the person having the burden of proof, with one’s intent to relinquish being evidenced by one’s post-relinquishment behaviour.
If a person has performed an act indicative of US citizenship, they can explain the circumstances on their 4079 and in their statement, if they choose to submit a statement, as many relinquishers do, describing their intent at the time of relinquishment and how their post-relinquishment conduct has been consistent with relinquishment.
Generally, one’s 4079/statement speak for themselves and the consul asks no questions, but the consul may ask you to elaborate at your meeting.
On February 11, 2013 I go to the U.S. consulate office in Toronto to apply for a CLN by informing them that I became a Canadian citizen in 1971 with the intent of relinquishing my U.S. citizenship (born in Chicago). I will bring along my filled in forms DS-4083 and DS4079, as well as my birth certificate, Canadian citizenship certificate and Canadian passport (I never had a U.S. passport). I did have a U.S. social security number when I entered Canada at age 20 back in 1965. However, I no longer have a record of that S.S. number. My question is, will the U.S. consulate office require I provide them with a U.S. social security number before they will process my relinquishment and CLN?
*Paul Harvey No
O&S you are over-thinking this. Take it with you in case they ask for it. You cannot anticipate everything. if they want something, they will ask. Just do it! Be strong.
*He can’t take it with him as he doesn’t have it anymore and doesn’t remember what it was. They shouldn’t need it as it’s an old relinquishment from way back. You don’t owe any tax so no need for an SSN. It’s not their business anyway, but if they do ask tell them you tore it up when you got your Canadian citizenship certificate. That surely counts as another “intent to relinquish” act.
@Paul Harvey,
Congratulations on your appointment for claiming decades ago relinquishment of your US citizenship. It sounds like you are well-prepared. You no longer have your social security number, never thinking you would have a use or it again; it won’t be a problem. Let us know how your appointment goes and consider letting us add yours to the growing database on Relinquishments and Renunciations and the Consulate Report Directory. Those are proving to be a valuable resource for others in their quest for information to make their decisions and course of action. Good luck — you’re going to do just fine!
Thank Duke of Devon and Media Fleecestealer. I really appreciate this advice.
Thanks Duke.
I’ll put N/A in the box on the online appointment form and see what happens. And I won’t bring the sibject up during the interview.
*Just noticed that Paul Harvey says he will have his DS-4083 already filled out. Is this the proper procedure?
So much the better for making sure they get the backdating right.
*@Paul Harvey
I just put “Don’t remember” for the SSN number the form asks for. Cause I can’t. Don’t think many others could remember a long number like that after 40 years either!
Has anyone posted this, and I just missed it…
From Time Magazine..
Mister Taxman: Why Some Americans Working Abroad Are Ditching Their Citizenships
Read more: http://world.time.com/2013/01/31/mister-taxman-why-some-americans-working-abroad-are-ditching-their-citizenships/#ixzz2JzAlosMo
Question on DS-4079 and affidavit.
Would it be seen as confrontational to include the fact that I was told by the US Consulate in 1979 that I would definitely lose my US Citizenship if I took Canadian citizenship, unless I could prove that I was required to to keep my employment?
That seems like pertinent info for backing up a claim of intention to relinquish, as I deliberately went ahead with my oath of alligeance knowing this.
The US consulate gave out a brochure on that subject back then. I wonder if anyone kept a copy and would be willing to scan it for upload.
Someone already put up a 1980 letter from a US Consulate telling someone that they presumed the person had relinquished by having taken Canadian citizenship and I downloaded it for my info files. Forgot where I found it though.
It’s not confrontational. Just like you said in paragraph 3 of your comment above — you’re showing intent by mentioning a fact that indicates you knew that losing your US citizenship would be a consequence of your decision to take Canadian citizenship.
Here’s the link to the letter that Ladybug’s husband got from a US consulate in 1980 regarding loss of citizenship upon naturalisation.
*@Old and Simple
Would it be seen as confrontational to include the fact that I was told by the US Consulate in 1979 that I would definitely lose my US Citizenship if I took Canadian citizenship, unless I could prove that I was required to to keep my employment?
That’s pretty much exactly the way I answered that question. It seems the best way to prove intent to relinquish – you were told there was a consequence to your action (taking Canadian citizenship) and you went ahead anyway. Not confrontational at all, just the facts.
@Old and Simple. I agree with Highjacked and answered the question in much the same way as well when I did my relinquishment @ the US Consulate in Toronto. Had no trouble getting the CLN.
New posting. Just to see how this will work.
When I went to search on your website I found it to be the best place for exchanging valuable information.
Here is my story. In 1952 I was born in USA to Canadian parents. It was common back then because we were so close to the border. I was baptised 3 days later in Canada. I have a Certificate of Birth Abroad from Canada dated 1953. I always lived in Canada. I worked for the Government of Canada for 36 years since 1972. I swore an Oath of Allegiance to the Queen and Canada that same year. Before I swore this Oath in front of a lawyer,my boss told me that by doing this I might be putting my US ties in jeopardy. I remember telling him that it was ok because I wanted to keep this job.
Around 2002 when there was talk of needing a passport to cross the border we had a hard time to find proof of my birth in USA. The hospital was demolished, where were the the records? Through all the struggling to get the needed paperwork someone in those offices in the US said that I would need a Social Security Number. I applied for one and got it. I finally received a “Delayed birth registration”.
I retired from my government job in 2008. I have never lived in the US, never worked there, never filed taxes there, never owned property there, never had bank accounts, never had income there, no close family ties there. I have a Canadian passport only, I’m married to a Canadian and all the immediate family lives in Canada.
I guess what I’m hoping for here is that with all the knowledge and experience you people have at Isaac’s you will help me make a decision. Should I apply for a “Backdated CLN” reffering to section 349 (a) (2) and (a) (4) of the INA and if so, do I need to see an Immigration Lawyer to help me find this OATH and the wording and have it notorized accompanied with a statement to show relinquishment was intentional? And also do you think that my having that SSN will hurt my chances of getting a backdated CLN?
Looking forward to your comments.
@Authentic, yes you could apply for a back dated CLN. Don’t bring up the SSN number, it is irrelevant. Do try to find prove of your government oath–whatever you can furnish to that effect would be helpful. I don’t know why you need a lawyer to find the oath. Perhaps a bit of library research is all that is needed.
Authentic 1213. Was it Derby Line? Many people don’t realize the border cuts the library in half!
As to your question. You could but more important why bother? You are quite safe.
Thanks for your comments Petros and Duke of Devon. I Googled Derby Line, now I know what you meant Duke. And no it wasn,t there.
The reason I was asking about the lawyer is that I had read in some of your posts that some had their DS-4079, DS-4081 and the Statement letter sent in by a lawyer before the Consulate meeting . Was this just to make it look more Official?