Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Please note that the guidelines for this discussion are published here.
*Good news everyone, my CLN has arrived! Accept I didn’t get it, doh!
On June 12th I received a notice in the mail that a registered letter was
waiting for me at the post office. When I was given the letter there was no
return address and no identification, just a plane white envelope. The only info on the letter was my address. Also
whoever sent the letter used the wrong register form. The only bit of
information was that the letter had been sent in Calgary. I assumed the US
Government sending out a CLN would do so with well identifiable markings. As a
result I didn’t accept the letter, because the clerk and I agreed that no
return address and the use of the wrong registration form seem unusual. In the
end I didn’t refuse the letter and just didn’t accept it. This meant the letter
would be returned to the sender unaccepted not rejected. I figured if it were
important someone would contact me and that’s what happened. A consulate staff
member sent me an email explaining that the letter had been returned and that I
could pick it up at the US Consulate in Calgary. So I guess on Monday I’ll
add an update to this blog on the results.
*A question to clarify John’s statement on renouncing and last tax due… So if John renounces in July 2012 and let’s say receives his certificate in 2012(or even if 2013 the inital date is what counts is in 2012), then in April 2013 does John have to file a 2012 US tax return and FATC etc and pay any tax due? OR if he is up to date in his annual filing when renouncing, would his 2011 tax return be his last? Does John or anyone else know?
And before I forget, a big THANK-YOU to all who detail out the steps to these processes. It removes the unknown and quiets the fears.
*@John Smith – Thanks so much for your detailed account – I really appreciate it. You listed some documents I wouldn’t have thought to bring (e.g., SSN card). I will be going through Vancouver as well so I’m delighted to hear about your experience.
Best wishes as you move forward with your life knowing you’ve left this huge burden (i.e., tax reporting compliance and cost) behind you! Just think of all that spare time you will now have because you’re not thinking, wondering, worrying, and reading about how to comply with the IRS! 🙂 I know I’m looking forward to that . . .
@itacaf,
Thanks for the update. Wonder if this is how all of the CLN’s are sent out? How ridiculous to have no identification on the envelope. Makes you wonder if, for those of us, who may have been sent CLN’s decades ago, similar things happened. Looking forward to your final instalment of your story. Congratulations — another CLN (to be picked up) in Calgary!
@North Fish,
John Smith and anyone else who renounced in 2012 will be required to file their final 2012 US income tax return and FBARs for that portion of 2012 they were a US citizen, January 1 through the renunciation date. That’s the way I understand it.
@NorthFish, I can give you some basic information.
If you renounced, say, July 17, 2012, you would do tax forms as a US citizen up to and including your last complete day as a US citizen. So, you’d do a 1040 for up to and including July 16, 2012. For the 8854, exit tax form, you need to know the value of your assets on your last complete day as a US citizen. (You may not be subject to exit tax — eg, if your assets are under $2 million –but you’re supposed to file this anyway.)
Beginning July 17, if you have US income you’re subject to the same tax rules as any other non-citizen. So, for 2012, only if you have US income after July 16, you’d file a 1040-NR for US income received 17 July – 31 Dec.
@Dual Citizen,
According to US law, the fact you renounced should not have any bearing on your admission to theUS . You would no longer have an automatic right of entry, but you should also not be discriminated against at the port of entry.
You would be treated as a citizen of the country you are a citizen of. So if you’re a citizen of country X and a visa is required for citizens of country X, you would need to have one. In the case ofCanada , though, no visa is required to enter the US for short stays.
It’s a good question and we’re keeping an eye it, both in legal developments and what actually occurs at the ports of entry.
*Thanks calgary411 and pacifica777 for the clarification. A question for calgary411, are you familiar with Roy Berg of Calgary? Would he or his colleges be beneficial in guiding us to what is the bare minimum that needs to be filled out for personal and business in the FATCA, 8854, and 5471 in preparation for renounciation? Also wondering if it would be beneficial to talk with an international tax lawyer before or after the international tax accountant. Know these professionals are expensive but can often save in the long run.
Oh the time commitment for all this is over whelming! The only thing that keeps us going is the hope that we possibly could be free from this burden in the near future. that grows and is more violating each year.
Hello, North Fish.
I am familiar with him; he is my lawyer and I trust him for the work he is doing for me. I am not, however, able to give nor do I want to, any endorsements. I have forwarded your comments to Mr. Berg as a heads-up should you decide to call him.
From my own experience, my biggest mistake was in getting my first advice from a cross-border tax accounting firm. Having come to Canada in 1969 and becoming a citizen in 1975, I should have gotten my first advice from an immigration lawyer — as I had been told as everyone of that time that I would be relinquishing my US citizenship when becoming a Canadian citizen. I did eventually consult with an immigration lawyer, but by that time I had back filed tax returns from 2005 on the advice of the cross-border accounting firm, thereby entering entered myself back into the throes of the USA. The next thing I did to take to heart the words of the US border guard who told me “I could go across this time, but the next time it was to be with a US passport, which is the law.” Then, having done those things, I so foolishly voted for the very first time in a US election as I thought it could make a difference. If you look into my story, I also have an adult (born in Canada, raised in Canada, never registered as a US citizen, never lived in the US, never received any benefit from the US). He is developmentally delayed so does not understand the concept of citizenship or the consequences one way or the other and I cannot influence him — nor says the US Consulate in Calgary can I renounce on behalf and neither can any other Parent / Guardian / or Trustee of any family member who is mentally handicapped in whatever way. My situation is complex and I cannot afford to make any more mistakes. My track record is not good and I so want to get this behind me / leave the worries behind. It has certainly been a life changer for me. I cannot do this by myself and am lucky enough to have some retirement savings that I can hire a US tax lawyer, etc.
I hope you have done extensive reading in this site to get a real good feel of the questions you wish to ask, etc. The decision may be different for you than for me on how you need to proceed. You may need less and more specific advice than what I am doing.
Are you in near Calgary or in another prairie province?
*Just looking at the IRS Form 8854 Initial and Annual Expatriation Statement. Other than the Part 1 General Information I cannot find where (or if?) a person that expatriated BEFORE 2004 is to go next in the form. In the Instructions for Form 8854 it only speaks of expats “after June 3, 2004”. Am I required as a US citizen living abroad since 1996, who has never spent 30 days or more in a calendar year back on US soil, required to file annually this Form 8854?
@North Fish. No — I believe this ties into when you actually renounce US citizenship.
It is all so confusing since the US is able to change its laws and how it affects those renouncing. As you may know, certain US senators are now trying for another change — the Ex-Patriot Bill http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/why-the-ex-patriot-act-is-a-creepy-law/257368/.
*Oh Calgary 411 my heart goes out to you. Ours is a similiar story with either not knowing we needed to do anything, to getting advice from those not well informed. Fortunately, we have filed and paid US taxes since 1996. In 2003 our family became citizens of Canada. Nievely we continued to file tax returns and pay taxes, used US passport when traveling, and occasionally vote (which is not an easy task since we were not a resident of any precinct). In late June of this year we learned of FATCA and the FBAR forms that are required. Our US accountant just learned of them too as we are their only citizens living abroard clients. We run our own small business and don’t have much extra time. Canada is our home and all the renewed hassle of the US requirements is not worth it.
I appreciate you sharing your experience, not that misery loves company, but that we can help each other learn from our mistakes as we grope our way in this “darkness”. I do not live in Calgary but go there from time to time to see family and occasionaly for business. We have been considering Mr. Berg since he seems knowledgable on the specifics of our situation with the US, which is someone we have not found to this point. He is also accessible. Thanks again for sharing and I wish you the best.
*North Fish. You are confusing the meaning of the word expatriate. In the IRS (non)sense it means when you cease to be an American not when you left the country.
Since you have not yet renounced, you do not fill in 8854 until the year after you renounce.
Assuming you are not a ‘covered ‘ expatriate. you only fill it in once. If you are a ‘covered ‘ expatriate (avoid if possible) I understand you file it annually for 10 years.
P. S. You have every reason to avoid FBAR penalties altogether. You relied on your accountant. As far as I know, you file them , going back if possible with a letter explaining why they were not previously filed. No fines should accrue. However you need professional advice.
On form 8854 you fit into the ‘after June 16, 2008’ category.
*Thanks Cornwalliscal for helping me to see that. I even looked up expatriate and the dictionary said one who leaves their home country and lives in another land. So NOW I get it that it is AFTER relinquishment or renouncing. The light bulb has turned on and it makes so much more sense. Yea, hope to only do that form once! your insight is greatly appreciated!
*Happy to help. You can see that the IRS is so ethnocentric that they even bend the meaning of words to mean what they want them to mean.
@ North Fish and Corwalliscal,
The only covered expatriates who file the 8854 annually for 10 years are those who expatriated on or before June 3, 2004.This is commonly quoted idea that no longer applies.
Note. If you expatriated before June 17, 2008, the expatriation rules in effect at that time continue to apply
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html#_Expatriation_On_or_Before June 3, 2_1
Expatriation after June 3, 2004 and before June 16, 2008
Amended IRC 877 eliminates the tax avoidance criteria for imposition of the
expatriation tax on certain types of income for 10 years following expatriation,
and creates objective criteria to impose the tax on individuals with an average
income tax liability for the 5 prior years of $127,000 for tax year 2005
($131,000 for 2006; $136,000 for 2007; $139,000 for 2008) or a net worth of
$2,000,000 on the date of expatriation. In addition, it requires individuals to
certify to the IRS that they have satisfied all federal tax requirements for the
5 years prior to expatriation and requires annual information reporting for each
taxable year during which an individual is subject to the rules of IRC 877.
Expatriation on or after June 16, 2008-IRC 877A imposes a mark-to-market regime, which generally means that all
property of a covered expatriate is deemed sold for its fair market value on the
day before the expatriation date. For more detailed information regarding the IRC 877A mark-to-market regime,
refer to Notice
2009-85.
*Gotcha
*How do you go about relinquishing US citizenship? Do you need some forms or what? If so how can I get hold of them? Having been out of the US since 1968 and never worked there I have only used my US passport for entry to the States (last in 2007) and as I have spent most of my life in English I have much more affinity with that country than the US. I’m a dual national via my British parents so have never needed to swear alligence to Britain so how would I go about making my intention to give up my US citizenship clear? I’m based in Switzerland at present due to British husband’s job.
@ Medea Fleecestealer,
You need to start doing a lot of research on this site. Unfortunately, you have been using a US passport so will have to renounce instead of relinquish. Attached to that are requirements for filing back US income tax returns and FBARs. I don’t even know where to start. You could start with http://www.renunciationguide.com/, supplementing that with ALL of the comments that are on the post you just commented to. I’m glad you joined us here – you will learn a lot that you need to know to make your own decisions.
One of the first things you might want to question is if you want your real name on this or any other site discussing your personal situation.
Each person must decide their own course of action. Whatever you do, do not go into an OVDI program without good US tax legal advice.
Here is my situation: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/14/my-story-calgary411/ I am only one of the many who have participated on the Isaac Brock site, learned and received much-needed support of others in the same situation. Good luck on your research. Stay calm but learn — make sure you are as informed as possible.
*Well, no I don’t particularly want my name on the site, but it doesn’t give any place for a nom de plume as it were. When a site asks for my name I assume it wants the real one as there is usually another place for the name you want to be known by. But then I can ask questions without having an account or logging in here it seems. Ah well.
Although using the US passport for US travel, the rest of my trips are done on a British passport and frankly now if I tried to go to US on the British it sounds as if I’d be treated as a pyriah or worse not allowed in. As I haven’t used it since 2007 and certainly won’t in future I’d hope relinquishing would be a quicker option than the 18 month queue here in Switzerland.
I have heard if you really really want to renounce quickly the fastest place in the world as the American Institute in Taiwan which as an “unofficial” Embassy the lacks the same formality as official US consulate and embassies. I have heard renounciation appointments can be obtained in Taipei with as little as a few days notice. Of course call them before you book a trip to Taiwan. You can also try calling other embassies around Europe. I truely don’t know what the wait times would be other than in general embassies they do renounciations on a regular basis such as London and Berne generally have lower wait times than those that don’t. AIT in Taipei does a LOT of renounciations and relinquishments.
@ Medea Fleecestealer,
You most likely will be able to use your British passport to enter the US without problem at this time (although there are more reports of being advised at the border, if your British passport shows that you were born in the US, that you should be entering the US with a US passport, which is indeed the law). I presume you were born in the US??
If you have a US passport and used it in 2007, it is very unlikely you will be able to relinquish your US citizenship. It is all absurd, unfair and almost incomprehensible. Thanks for joining us here. There will be many who will pick up on your questions and give some advice. You must determine if you can do this on your own as well-informed as possible or whether you need good professional advice. Have you been filing US income tax returns and Foreign Bank Account Reports (FBARs). Are you aware of the pending FATCA regulations? Some have made the decision, because they have also made the decision they never again need to enter the US, they will not make themselves a target. Canada, for example, will protect its Canadian/US citizens to some extent and, less so, US residents in Canada.
(As one of the administrators that go in from time to time just to remove spam from the comments, I was able to do a “quick edit” of your name, so it is removed now. As you don’t want your name to show, you should, though, go through the registration process for the site again and use a pseudonym, which I can then change these first few comments to).
Hi, Medea,
These are the forms for renunciation
4079. Request for determination of loss of citizenship. This is not strictly required for renunciations (according to the Dept of State procedure manual) but it seems most consulates ask for it.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
4080. Oath of renunciation.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81606.pdf
4081. Statement of understanding of consequences.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81607.pdf
4083. Certificate of loss of nationality.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81609.pdf
There’s a good step-by-step description of the procedure, along with other information, at renunciation guide.com and there’s people’s descriptions of their renunciation appointments and dealings with the various consulates in Brock’s Consulate Report Directory.
@ Medea Fleecestealer,
May I make a suggestion from one who is not renouncing! 🙂
This site is an excellent resource, but in may ways you are coming in at the end of a long discovery process and an even longer conversation about what to do that is over 1100 comments to date.
You are being provided a lot of GREAT resources above on where to start, which will require you to do a lot of personal discovery drudgery to understand. Alternately, you are going to have to pay a International Tax Practitioner a lot of money to guide you if you are not able or unwilling to spend your own LCUs (Life Credit Units) in this effort.
If it were me, and asking the most basic of questions… “How do you go about relinquishing US citizenship? Do you need some forms or what?” I would back up to the beginning of this thread. There is one weakness in this blog, and that is there is not a quick button get you back to the beginning of a thread of comments, so I will give it to you here. This will save you backing up through 44 pages of comments and allow you to reread through concurrently.
May I suggest, depending on your time constraints, to methodically read through all the other questions, comments and sharing that is here. By the time you got done, you would know the complex subject as well as anyone on Isaac Brock or the internet for that matter! You will probably know it better than most International Tax Practitioners! 🙂 In fact, you would be in a position to answer questions for the next person who is Another with questions.
Good luck with your personal discovery drudgery! You will get there, I am sure. 🙂
@ Medea,
Relinquishing wouldn’t necessarily go any quicker than renouncing because, although the relinquishing act does not take place at a consulate, in order to get it recognised by the US government you have to meet with a consular official and sign the same forms as renunciation (except for the oath) at the consulate. The waiting time for an appointment seems to be the same for both procedures.
One difference is that some consulates require two appointments for renunciations (although some only require one) … whereas if one has relinquished, it’s generally only one appointment (except at Vancouver, it seems).