1,795 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)”
I’m moving this comment here so it appears in the correct place.
I go to the consulate in a week to inform them that I relinquished 38years ago.
Has anyone ever gotten a backdated CLN?
Any advice for the interview?
The only advice I can think of is to know what your specific rights are. I’ve written three posts on relinquishment on the right hand side bar.
Relinquish US Citizenship don’t renounce, if you can
Did you relinquish before February 6, 1995?
Did you commit a relinquishing act with the intention of losing US citizenship? Actions speak louder than words
Did relinquish – became a Canadian citizen, took oath to Queen Liz II.
It was late in 1973
Have never had nor applied for a U.S. passport, medicare, social security or any other service. Haven’t lived in the US since 1968. Don’t own property in the US. Maximum stay on visits is under three weeks and mostly under one week. Not a snowbird.
If I ask for the CLN to be backdated will they honour the request?
Looks to me like you aren’t even a US citizen. I sure hope you can get the back dated CLN. But this is United States government that we are talking about. But the fact that you have not been a US citizen for so long would exempt you from all filing requirements.
Problem is I never informed State Department that I relinquished back then. That’s what I’m doing in a week.
They have no choice but to backdate your CLN, given you haven’t done any of the things that might undermine your relinquishment, which you indicate you haven’t.
IRS itself recognizes that State has no choice but to date to the actual act, which is why the instructions on Form 8854 specifically say “for tax purposes” they want to date your expatriation from today and not from 1973. See:
“In cases involving one of these potentially expatriating acts (my note – including becoming a foreign citizen with intent to relinquish), any loss of citizenship is considered effective on the date the act is committed, even though the loss may not be documented by DOS until a later date. DOS generally learns of a case of possible loss of citizenship arising from one of these acts only when the individual appears before a consular officer and acknowledges that the potentially expatriating act was committed voluntarily and with the requisite intent.”
Footnote to the above paragraph: “In both formal renunciation cases and losses of citizenship based on one of the above acts, INA § 358 requires the consular officer abroad to submit for approval a CLN to DOS. The date on which the CLN is approved, ordinarily two weeks to six months after submission, is not the effective date for loss of citizenship.”
And there is legislation exemption from the exit tax/form 8854 any person who committed an expatriating act prior to February 6, 1994, as long as you can satisfy the Treasury Secretary such was the case. A CLN identifying the expatriating act as having occurred prior to that date would be pretty darn convincing evidence such was the case.
That is very reassuring. Thank you.
Reference for the exemption I mentioned from exit tax is found in IRS Notice 97-19 Section X:Transition Provision at this link http://www.gpo.gov/congress/joint/jcs-2-03/a166.pdf
Follow the advice given there … check with tax lawyer if in doubt but I think it’s pretty clear.
Good luck John! (from Ed – interesting how we all use morphs of our former ExpatForum monikers!)
Thanks, Ed. I think the link is broken as I keep getting an error.
Morphing is handy for ID by friends from there. Morph in my case due to the fact that Ladyhawk is already taken on WordPress. Should have thought to try a different spelling.
You can change how your wordpress ID looks when posting by going to Dashboard, (Users), My profile
Yes, Ed and Foxyladyhawk, my expat to WordPress morph was because it was already taken on WordPress.
DS-4079, asks for a date of naturalization, does anyone know if a partial date is acceptable
i.e year only
My situation is almost identical to Johnnb, including we became Canadian citizens same year (1973). The only difference is I have a US SSN, but it has not been used since 1970. For almost 40 years I have believed I am NOT a US citizen, but IRS may think differently. Any advice?
Here is a post that I wrote a while ago that talks about this very issue. For those of you who became Canadian citizens during the 70s (and actually prior to 1986) you may be able to argue that you are not a U.S. citizen.
Here is a comment that I made to another blog post on this site:
This is an interesting and difficult area. Remember that the State Department cannot make the final determination on the issue of “intention to relinquish” citizenship. The final decision is made by the court (assuming that you have the money to get there).
There are some very helpful comments in this post that should be summarized as follows:
1. When it comes to an expatriating act, no one factor is determinative of intention.
2. If you have become a Canadian citizen and thought that by becoming Canadian you were relinquishing your U.S. citizenship – this means that you became a Canadian with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. Therefore, you should NOT – on an ongoing basis – do the things that are required of U.S. citizens. (You may have past issues that need to be resolved.) Under no circumstances should you apply for or travel to the U.S. on a U.S. passport.
3. The way that the U.S. interprets its law is in the way that it thinks best serves its interests. The history of the U.S. government in relation to citizenship has been to punish people. For example in the Vietnam area, the U.S. government would “strip people” of citizenship. If you became a Canadian as part of evading the draft, it is very unlikely you are still a U.S. citizen. These days – a citizen is just somebody to tax – so the U.S. wants citizens (don’t know why they are trying to keep the immigrants out) – so it is harder to claim non-citizenship.
Read the following two cases which shows how the U.S. will try to interpret intention in its favor:
First Richards – those of you from the Vietnam era should find comfort in this case.
Richards v. Secretary of State et al., 752 F.2d 1413 (9th Cir. 1985)
The following Court of Appeals case (one step below the Supreme Court) isn’t nearly as relevant nowadays as it was in 1985, in light of the State Department’s current (and much more permissive) policy on loss of US citizenship.
William Richards became a Canadian citizen in 1971. At the time he did this, the Canadian naturalization oath included a clause renouncing prior allegiances. Accordingly, a lower court concluded that Richards had lost his US citizenship.
Richards argued that he had acquired Canadian citizenship only because he needed said citizenship in order to get a job with the Boy Scouts of Canada. Although he conceded that he had made an explicit statement of renunciation of US citizenship as part of the Canadian naturalization procedure, he contended that this action on his part was not voluntary because he had been under “economic duress” at the time.
The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals rejected Richards’ economic duress argument, observing that he had worked in Canada for several years as a teacher without being a Canadian citizen, and that there was no evidence that he had been forced to leave his teaching job or that he had made any effort to find a job that would not have required him to obtain Canadian citizenship and renounce his US citizenship.
The lower court found (and the Ninth Circuit agreed) that Richards knew and understood the significance of the renunciatory language in the Canadian naturalization documents. Although Richards would have preferred to keep his US citizenship, such a wish was not sufficient to negate the presumption that he had chosen, in the end, to give up that citizenship. “We cannot accept a test”, the Ninth Circuit stated in its opinion, “under which the right to expatriation can be exercised effectively only if exercised eagerly.”
It should be noted, by the way, that Canada no longer requires new citizens to give up their other citizenships. The renunciatory language in the Canadian naturalization oath was ruled illegal by a Canadian court in 1973 on technical grounds and was subsequently removed — and Canada has allowed dual citizenship without any restrictions at all since 1977. Hence, the Richards case is generally not relevant to Americans who became Canadian citizens after that time.
______________________________________________
This next case was decided in a different time. Pay very careful attention to facts. What did Rich actually do so that the court decided he did not have the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship?
Further, the State Department’s current (post-1990) policy on loss of US citizenship specifically says that taking a “routine oath of allegiance” to a foreign country will not normally be interpreted as showing an intent to give up US citizenship. In 1991 the State Department adopted the administrative presumption that people wanted to retain U.S. citizenship. In addition, this case was decided after Vance v. Terrazas (which is the most important case on U.S. citizenship)
Action and Deltamar v. Rich, 951 F.2d 504 (2nd Cir. 1991)
The following case seems somewhat more in line with the current State Department policy that loss of US citizenship occurs only when a person truly intends to give it up.
Marc Rich, defendant in a multi-million-dollar business lawsuit, contended that the Federal District Court which had heard his case lacked jurisdiction because he (Rich) had given up his US citizenship in 1982 when he became a naturalized citizen of Spain. The Spanish naturalization oath he took included an explicit renunciation of US citizenship.
The Second Circuit Court of Appeals observed, however, that “[D]espite his naturalization as a Spanish citizen, Rich continued to behave in a manner consistent with American citizenship. . . . Rich continued to use his American passport despite renunciation of American citizenship. . . .”
Although Rich asserted that his Spanish naturalization conclusively established his intent to relinquish US citizenship, the court said there “must be proof of a specific intent to relinquish United States citizenship before an act of foreign naturalization or oath of loyalty to another sovereign can result in the expatriation of an American citizen. . . . Despite mouthing words of renunciation before a Spanish official”, the court continued, Rich “brought a Swiss action as an American national, travelled on his American passport, and publicized himself in a commercial register as a United States citizen.”
Accordingly, the Second Circuit ruled that despite Rich’s actions, he had retained his US citizenship because he had never truly intended to relinquish it.
So, this case turns on its facts – do not behave as a U.S. citizen after having performed an expatriating act. Behave in the opposite way.
Blaze: More alike than you think. My wife and I also have SSNs which we had before we left the States but we never used them nor applied for any benefits. They have just been cards in a drawer.
renounceuscitizenship: That is a very reassuring post.
Thanks.
Petros, you are a wealth of information–and my latest hero. You gave me far more useful information than a lawyer and accountant I consulted.
Johnnb, I will be following your request for CLN very closely. Please keep us informed.
I was born and raised in US, but came to Canada as a young woman (Vietnam era, but I wasn’t a draft dodger). When I became Canadian in 1973, I called the US Consulate in Vancouver (where I was living at the time). They told me I would be renouncing my US citizenship by becoming Canadian. Or perhaps the word was relinquishing. I don’t remember the exact words after almost more than 40 years–but I do clearly remember the message. A US Consular Officer came to my citizenship ceremony. Just before the ceremony. I was required to sign a document stating that I understood I was giving up (or whatever the word was!) my American citizenship. I took the oath with the full knowledge and intent that it would terminate my U.S. citizenship.
For almost 40 years, I have only identified myself as a Canadian citizen, which can be confirmed by Canadian employers and friends. In addition, friends and family in U.S. also only see me as a Canadian citizen. In fact, at a high school class reunion, I was presented with a hand-made badge “Only non-US Citizen.” I accepted it proudly, but former classmates flocked to me demanding to know why I would ever give up US citizenship.
Yet, when I got my Nexus card in 2004 (more than 30 years after I became Canadian), The US Immigration Officer who interviewed me looked at my Canadian citizenship card and my American birth certificate and said “You’re still a US citizen.” I replied “No, look, here’s my Canadian citizenship certificate. When I became a Canadian in 1973, dual citizenship was not allowed.” She insisted I was still a U.S. citizen and that I should always enter the U.S. as such. She did issue my Nexus card to me as a Canadian, as that was how I applied. At no time have I followed her direction. Whenever I have traveled to the U.S. to visit family or friends, I always identify myself as Canadian and hold only a Canadian passport.
On a recent trip, an Immigration Officer again told me I should always enter US on a US passport. I have not and will not apply for one, but I’m concerned this can cause problems in future crossings. I asked Canadian passport office if it is possible to have a passport which does not include my place of birth. Their passport employee told me they could issue it, but 16 countries will not admit anyone traveling on a passport that does not identify place of birth. Then she grimaced and said “The United States is one of those countries.”
If it weren’t for my 89 year old mother, I would never again enter the U.S. I have told my sister, cousins and friends that after my mother’s death, I will NOT cross the border again (With 1 million Canadians feeling the same, that’s certainly not helping their economy!)
A US lawyer in Ontario (where I now live) told me recently that because the US Consular Officer did not give me a copy of the document which I signed and because I never received a certificate, the US does still consider me American.
Yet, the US Embassy’s website says “In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship. Intent can be shown by the person’s statements or conduct.” All those points apply to me.
I’m terrified to call the US Embassy or Consulate to try to resolve this for fear they will know where I am, consider me a U.S. citizen and report me to the IRS. According to another posting on this site, a BC man who has been Canadian for 40 years was told at the border he is a US citizen until they tell him differently. Yikes!
Thanks Petros for putting this together. Steven Harper has said he wants to celebrate the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812. Together, we will be the modern-day warriors.
Issac Brock Rocks!
How bad is that when a citizen is frightened to call the Embassy of their country of birth?!?–I suddenly feel like I’ve escaped from the former Soviet Union!. I would love to find a knowledgeable lawyer who could help me to resolve this without actually having to go to court. That’s why I will be following Johnnb closely. John, you and your wife are brave to actually be going to US Consulate.
Blaze: My wife and I parallel your story except we contacted no one when we went to our citizenship ceremony. That was in November of 1973. We did not have to sign a renunciation as far as I can remember but I have sent a FOI request to the Canadian government for all documents from that time.
We did file our final U.S. income tax form for 1973 (sometime early in 1974) and sent cover letters stating that we no longer considered ourselves U.S. citizens. Now I’m wishing we had sent them to the State Department and that we had kept copies of them. We have heard nothing from the IRS for all the intervening years and we haven’t filed any other U.S. tax forms.
Our interviews are on 23 January. We will post when we return from Halifax.
Thank you, renounceuscitizenship, you actually answered a question of mine when you said
“In 1991 the State Department adopted the administrative presumption that people wanted to retain U.S. citizenship.”
I came to France in 1989 and was married in early 1990. At that time I was offered French citizenship (rules are different now) and I did check with the US consulate where I was informed in very strong terms that I would put my US citizenship at risk if I did this. So I didn’t. Looks like if I had gone to the Consulate a little less than one year later, I would have had a different answer and would probably be a French citizen today.
John: I didn’t ask the Consular Official to come to my ceremony. I had called them for general information, but didn’t give them the date or place of my ceremony. The Canadian Citizenship Judge told me a U.S. official would require me to meet privately before my ceremony. It was in that meeting that I was presented with the document. There was no pressure from either the Canadian Judge or the US Official. The U.S. Official asked me if I understood I was relinquishing (although I don’t remember the exact word. I confirmed I did and he presented me with the document to sign. It was all done in a matter of minutes and I proceeded to another room for the citizenship ceremony. I wish I had asked for a copy of the document. It never occurred to me then I would ever need to prove I am NOT a U.S. citizen. It all seemed so straighforward. I have also taken an Oath to the Queen on two separate occassions when I began employment with the Ontario government. At the time, I didn’t think how that would affect U.S. citizenship because I thought I had already given it up voluntarily when I became Canadian.
I never filed a U.S. income tax return after I came to Canada–except for the one for the s year proceeding my move to Canada when when I was still living and working in U.S. I have not used my US SSN since then.
I still have the Bible which was given to me by Canadian Bible Society at my ceremony for me to swear my oath. I just looked at it. It is stamped on the inside with the place (Vancouver) and date (April 27, 1973) and the inscription “We pray that God may bless you and those dear to you in the land which has become your home.” Canada has been good to me and I think I have been good to Canada.
I hope things go well for you and your wife. You are now armed with lots of info from Petros. Have you discussed the CLN with the Consulate yet?
Good Luck!
Hi John. Sorry for the delay in replying. Which link is broken? Let me know which document and I’ll email you the PDFs I downloaded.
On second thought, I have your private email address still in my own address book, I hope, from our private correspondence a few weeks ago. If I find it, I’ll just send you the two documents as attachments to an email.
Cheers
Ditto, but no problemo …
My wife’s circumstances match both you and John. She moved to Canada from the US in 1969, became a Canadian citizen in 1974. She believed then, and believes now, that in doing so she relinquished her US citizenship. She is outraged that the IRS now wants to reinstate her US citizenship and hit her up for tax returns (she has had zero connection with the US since 1969, other than tourist/family visits — and very few of those.)
We will follow John’s approach very closely because if it is successful, we might try something similar. Only real caution here — when you front-up to the consulate you’re putting yourself on their radar screen. That might be dangerous, and at this point it stops us from making any contact whatsoever with any US official. We will not be making any more trips south until there’s been some recognition down there that they are now behaving like a banana republic. I’m not optimistic.
Arrow: I figured they already knew my name from the whole draft dodger/amnesty thing so if they wanted to find me they could. When we came to Canada way back then we accepted that we might never be able to go back to the states and after we were here for a couple of years found that we didn’t really want to. An exception for family visits was our only wish. President Carter’s amnesty came years after we took Canadian citizenship and all we ever took from it was the ability to visit family and the odd shopping trip with friends. If worse comes to worse we are back to where we were in 1973 but with a lot fewer relatives. We will miss visiting them but it will give us a good reason to push for them to visit us. We probably don’t owe any taxes (never made that much money) and Canada says it won’t collect penalties so really just a travel restriction and we travel mostly to more fun places – China, Egypt, Europe, etc.
In short, no bravery required from us.
Blaze: I lost that bible a long time ago but I remember that it said something like …A new Testament for Non-Speakers of English… and had some wording that was hilarious. We also had tea provided by the local chapter of the IODE in real china cups. Altogether a surreal experience!
I’m moving this comment here so it appears in the correct place.
I go to the consulate in a week to inform them that I relinquished 38years ago.
Has anyone ever gotten a backdated CLN?
Any advice for the interview?
The only advice I can think of is to know what your specific rights are. I’ve written three posts on relinquishment on the right hand side bar.
Relinquish US Citizenship don’t renounce, if you can
Did you relinquish before February 6, 1995?
Did you commit a relinquishing act with the intention of losing US citizenship? Actions speak louder than words
Did relinquish – became a Canadian citizen, took oath to Queen Liz II.
It was late in 1973
Have never had nor applied for a U.S. passport, medicare, social security or any other service. Haven’t lived in the US since 1968. Don’t own property in the US. Maximum stay on visits is under three weeks and mostly under one week. Not a snowbird.
If I ask for the CLN to be backdated will they honour the request?
Looks to me like you aren’t even a US citizen. I sure hope you can get the back dated CLN. But this is United States government that we are talking about. But the fact that you have not been a US citizen for so long would exempt you from all filing requirements.
Problem is I never informed State Department that I relinquished back then. That’s what I’m doing in a week.
They have no choice but to backdate your CLN, given you haven’t done any of the things that might undermine your relinquishment, which you indicate you haven’t.
IRS itself recognizes that State has no choice but to date to the actual act, which is why the instructions on Form 8854 specifically say “for tax purposes” they want to date your expatriation from today and not from 1973. See:
See the following IRS report to the US Congress in 1998
http://www.treasury.gov/press-center/press-releases/Documents/tax598.pdf page 30
“In cases involving one of these potentially expatriating acts (my note – including becoming a foreign citizen with intent to relinquish), any loss of citizenship is considered effective on the date the act is committed, even though the loss may not be documented by DOS until a later date. DOS generally learns of a case of possible loss of citizenship arising from one of these acts only when the individual appears before a consular officer and acknowledges that the potentially expatriating act was committed voluntarily and with the requisite intent.”
Footnote to the above paragraph: “In both formal renunciation cases and losses of citizenship based on one of the above acts, INA § 358 requires the consular officer abroad to submit for approval a CLN to DOS. The date on which the CLN is approved, ordinarily two weeks to six months after submission, is not the effective date for loss of citizenship.”
And there is legislation exemption from the exit tax/form 8854 any person who committed an expatriating act prior to February 6, 1994, as long as you can satisfy the Treasury Secretary such was the case. A CLN identifying the expatriating act as having occurred prior to that date would be pretty darn convincing evidence such was the case.
That is very reassuring. Thank you.
Reference for the exemption I mentioned from exit tax is found in IRS Notice 97-19 Section X:Transition Provision at this link
http://www.gpo.gov/congress/joint/jcs-2-03/a166.pdf
Follow the advice given there … check with tax lawyer if in doubt but I think it’s pretty clear.
Good luck John! (from Ed – interesting how we all use morphs of our former ExpatForum monikers!)
Thanks, Ed. I think the link is broken as I keep getting an error.
Morphing is handy for ID by friends from there. Morph in my case due to the fact that Ladyhawk is already taken on WordPress. Should have thought to try a different spelling.
You can change how your wordpress ID looks when posting by going to Dashboard, (Users), My profile
Yes, Ed and Foxyladyhawk, my expat to WordPress morph was because it was already taken on WordPress.
DS-4079, asks for a date of naturalization, does anyone know if a partial date is acceptable
i.e year only
My situation is almost identical to Johnnb, including we became Canadian citizens same year (1973). The only difference is I have a US SSN, but it has not been used since 1970. For almost 40 years I have believed I am NOT a US citizen, but IRS may think differently. Any advice?
Here is a post that I wrote a while ago that talks about this very issue. For those of you who became Canadian citizens during the 70s (and actually prior to 1986) you may be able to argue that you are not a U.S. citizen.
Take a look at this:
http://renounceuscitizenship.wordpress.com/2011/11/13/expatriating-acts-the-status-of-your-u-s-citizenship/
Here is a comment that I made to another blog post on this site:
This is an interesting and difficult area. Remember that the State Department cannot make the final determination on the issue of “intention to relinquish” citizenship. The final decision is made by the court (assuming that you have the money to get there).
There are some very helpful comments in this post that should be summarized as follows:
1. When it comes to an expatriating act, no one factor is determinative of intention.
2. If you have become a Canadian citizen and thought that by becoming Canadian you were relinquishing your U.S. citizenship – this means that you became a Canadian with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. Therefore, you should NOT – on an ongoing basis – do the things that are required of U.S. citizens. (You may have past issues that need to be resolved.) Under no circumstances should you apply for or travel to the U.S. on a U.S. passport.
3. The way that the U.S. interprets its law is in the way that it thinks best serves its interests. The history of the U.S. government in relation to citizenship has been to punish people. For example in the Vietnam area, the U.S. government would “strip people” of citizenship. If you became a Canadian as part of evading the draft, it is very unlikely you are still a U.S. citizen. These days – a citizen is just somebody to tax – so the U.S. wants citizens (don’t know why they are trying to keep the immigrants out) – so it is harder to claim non-citizenship.
Read the following two cases which shows how the U.S. will try to interpret intention in its favor:
First Richards – those of you from the Vietnam era should find comfort in this case.
Richards v. Secretary of State et al., 752 F.2d 1413 (9th Cir. 1985)
The following Court of Appeals case (one step below the Supreme Court) isn’t nearly as relevant nowadays as it was in 1985, in light of the State Department’s current (and much more permissive) policy on loss of US citizenship.
William Richards became a Canadian citizen in 1971. At the time he did this, the Canadian naturalization oath included a clause renouncing prior allegiances. Accordingly, a lower court concluded that Richards had lost his US citizenship.
Richards argued that he had acquired Canadian citizenship only because he needed said citizenship in order to get a job with the Boy Scouts of Canada. Although he conceded that he had made an explicit statement of renunciation of US citizenship as part of the Canadian naturalization procedure, he contended that this action on his part was not voluntary because he had been under “economic duress” at the time.
The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals rejected Richards’ economic duress argument, observing that he had worked in Canada for several years as a teacher without being a Canadian citizen, and that there was no evidence that he had been forced to leave his teaching job or that he had made any effort to find a job that would not have required him to obtain Canadian citizenship and renounce his US citizenship.
The lower court found (and the Ninth Circuit agreed) that Richards knew and understood the significance of the renunciatory language in the Canadian naturalization documents. Although Richards would have preferred to keep his US citizenship, such a wish was not sufficient to negate the presumption that he had chosen, in the end, to give up that citizenship. “We cannot accept a test”, the Ninth Circuit stated in its opinion, “under which the right to expatriation can be exercised effectively only if exercised eagerly.”
It should be noted, by the way, that Canada no longer requires new citizens to give up their other citizenships. The renunciatory language in the Canadian naturalization oath was ruled illegal by a Canadian court in 1973 on technical grounds and was subsequently removed — and Canada has allowed dual citizenship without any restrictions at all since 1977. Hence, the Richards case is generally not relevant to Americans who became Canadian citizens after that time.
______________________________________________
This next case was decided in a different time. Pay very careful attention to facts. What did Rich actually do so that the court decided he did not have the intention to relinquish U.S. citizenship?
Further, the State Department’s current (post-1990) policy on loss of US citizenship specifically says that taking a “routine oath of allegiance” to a foreign country will not normally be interpreted as showing an intent to give up US citizenship. In 1991 the State Department adopted the administrative presumption that people wanted to retain U.S. citizenship. In addition, this case was decided after Vance v. Terrazas (which is the most important case on U.S. citizenship)
Action and Deltamar v. Rich, 951 F.2d 504 (2nd Cir. 1991)
The following case seems somewhat more in line with the current State Department policy that loss of US citizenship occurs only when a person truly intends to give it up.
Marc Rich, defendant in a multi-million-dollar business lawsuit, contended that the Federal District Court which had heard his case lacked jurisdiction because he (Rich) had given up his US citizenship in 1982 when he became a naturalized citizen of Spain. The Spanish naturalization oath he took included an explicit renunciation of US citizenship.
The Second Circuit Court of Appeals observed, however, that “[D]espite his naturalization as a Spanish citizen, Rich continued to behave in a manner consistent with American citizenship. . . . Rich continued to use his American passport despite renunciation of American citizenship. . . .”
Although Rich asserted that his Spanish naturalization conclusively established his intent to relinquish US citizenship, the court said there “must be proof of a specific intent to relinquish United States citizenship before an act of foreign naturalization or oath of loyalty to another sovereign can result in the expatriation of an American citizen. . . . Despite mouthing words of renunciation before a Spanish official”, the court continued, Rich “brought a Swiss action as an American national, travelled on his American passport, and publicized himself in a commercial register as a United States citizen.”
Accordingly, the Second Circuit ruled that despite Rich’s actions, he had retained his US citizenship because he had never truly intended to relinquish it.
So, this case turns on its facts – do not behave as a U.S. citizen after having performed an expatriating act. Behave in the opposite way.
Blaze: More alike than you think. My wife and I also have SSNs which we had before we left the States but we never used them nor applied for any benefits. They have just been cards in a drawer.
renounceuscitizenship: That is a very reassuring post.
Thanks.
Petros, you are a wealth of information–and my latest hero. You gave me far more useful information than a lawyer and accountant I consulted.
Johnnb, I will be following your request for CLN very closely. Please keep us informed.
I was born and raised in US, but came to Canada as a young woman (Vietnam era, but I wasn’t a draft dodger). When I became Canadian in 1973, I called the US Consulate in Vancouver (where I was living at the time). They told me I would be renouncing my US citizenship by becoming Canadian. Or perhaps the word was relinquishing. I don’t remember the exact words after almost more than 40 years–but I do clearly remember the message. A US Consular Officer came to my citizenship ceremony. Just before the ceremony. I was required to sign a document stating that I understood I was giving up (or whatever the word was!) my American citizenship. I took the oath with the full knowledge and intent that it would terminate my U.S. citizenship.
For almost 40 years, I have only identified myself as a Canadian citizen, which can be confirmed by Canadian employers and friends. In addition, friends and family in U.S. also only see me as a Canadian citizen. In fact, at a high school class reunion, I was presented with a hand-made badge “Only non-US Citizen.” I accepted it proudly, but former classmates flocked to me demanding to know why I would ever give up US citizenship.
Yet, when I got my Nexus card in 2004 (more than 30 years after I became Canadian), The US Immigration Officer who interviewed me looked at my Canadian citizenship card and my American birth certificate and said “You’re still a US citizen.” I replied “No, look, here’s my Canadian citizenship certificate. When I became a Canadian in 1973, dual citizenship was not allowed.” She insisted I was still a U.S. citizen and that I should always enter the U.S. as such. She did issue my Nexus card to me as a Canadian, as that was how I applied. At no time have I followed her direction. Whenever I have traveled to the U.S. to visit family or friends, I always identify myself as Canadian and hold only a Canadian passport.
On a recent trip, an Immigration Officer again told me I should always enter US on a US passport. I have not and will not apply for one, but I’m concerned this can cause problems in future crossings. I asked Canadian passport office if it is possible to have a passport which does not include my place of birth. Their passport employee told me they could issue it, but 16 countries will not admit anyone traveling on a passport that does not identify place of birth. Then she grimaced and said “The United States is one of those countries.”
If it weren’t for my 89 year old mother, I would never again enter the U.S. I have told my sister, cousins and friends that after my mother’s death, I will NOT cross the border again (With 1 million Canadians feeling the same, that’s certainly not helping their economy!)
A US lawyer in Ontario (where I now live) told me recently that because the US Consular Officer did not give me a copy of the document which I signed and because I never received a certificate, the US does still consider me American.
Yet, the US Embassy’s website says “In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship. Intent can be shown by the person’s statements or conduct.” All those points apply to me.
I’m terrified to call the US Embassy or Consulate to try to resolve this for fear they will know where I am, consider me a U.S. citizen and report me to the IRS. According to another posting on this site, a BC man who has been Canadian for 40 years was told at the border he is a US citizen until they tell him differently. Yikes!
Thanks Petros for putting this together. Steven Harper has said he wants to celebrate the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812. Together, we will be the modern-day warriors.
Issac Brock Rocks!
How bad is that when a citizen is frightened to call the Embassy of their country of birth?!?–I suddenly feel like I’ve escaped from the former Soviet Union!. I would love to find a knowledgeable lawyer who could help me to resolve this without actually having to go to court. That’s why I will be following Johnnb closely. John, you and your wife are brave to actually be going to US Consulate.
Blaze: My wife and I parallel your story except we contacted no one when we went to our citizenship ceremony. That was in November of 1973. We did not have to sign a renunciation as far as I can remember but I have sent a FOI request to the Canadian government for all documents from that time.
We did file our final U.S. income tax form for 1973 (sometime early in 1974) and sent cover letters stating that we no longer considered ourselves U.S. citizens. Now I’m wishing we had sent them to the State Department and that we had kept copies of them. We have heard nothing from the IRS for all the intervening years and we haven’t filed any other U.S. tax forms.
Our interviews are on 23 January. We will post when we return from Halifax.
Thank you, renounceuscitizenship, you actually answered a question of mine when you said
“In 1991 the State Department adopted the administrative presumption that people wanted to retain U.S. citizenship.”
I came to France in 1989 and was married in early 1990. At that time I was offered French citizenship (rules are different now) and I did check with the US consulate where I was informed in very strong terms that I would put my US citizenship at risk if I did this. So I didn’t. Looks like if I had gone to the Consulate a little less than one year later, I would have had a different answer and would probably be a French citizen today.
John: I didn’t ask the Consular Official to come to my ceremony. I had called them for general information, but didn’t give them the date or place of my ceremony. The Canadian Citizenship Judge told me a U.S. official would require me to meet privately before my ceremony. It was in that meeting that I was presented with the document. There was no pressure from either the Canadian Judge or the US Official. The U.S. Official asked me if I understood I was relinquishing (although I don’t remember the exact word. I confirmed I did and he presented me with the document to sign. It was all done in a matter of minutes and I proceeded to another room for the citizenship ceremony. I wish I had asked for a copy of the document. It never occurred to me then I would ever need to prove I am NOT a U.S. citizen. It all seemed so straighforward. I have also taken an Oath to the Queen on two separate occassions when I began employment with the Ontario government. At the time, I didn’t think how that would affect U.S. citizenship because I thought I had already given it up voluntarily when I became Canadian.
I never filed a U.S. income tax return after I came to Canada–except for the one for the s year proceeding my move to Canada when when I was still living and working in U.S. I have not used my US SSN since then.
I still have the Bible which was given to me by Canadian Bible Society at my ceremony for me to swear my oath. I just looked at it. It is stamped on the inside with the place (Vancouver) and date (April 27, 1973) and the inscription “We pray that God may bless you and those dear to you in the land which has become your home.” Canada has been good to me and I think I have been good to Canada.
I hope things go well for you and your wife. You are now armed with lots of info from Petros. Have you discussed the CLN with the Consulate yet?
Good Luck!
Hi John. Sorry for the delay in replying. Which link is broken? Let me know which document and I’ll email you the PDFs I downloaded.
On second thought, I have your private email address still in my own address book, I hope, from our private correspondence a few weeks ago. If I find it, I’ll just send you the two documents as attachments to an email.
Cheers
Ditto, but no problemo …
My wife’s circumstances match both you and John. She moved to Canada from the US in 1969, became a Canadian citizen in 1974. She believed then, and believes now, that in doing so she relinquished her US citizenship. She is outraged that the IRS now wants to reinstate her US citizenship and hit her up for tax returns (she has had zero connection with the US since 1969, other than tourist/family visits — and very few of those.)
We will follow John’s approach very closely because if it is successful, we might try something similar. Only real caution here — when you front-up to the consulate you’re putting yourself on their radar screen. That might be dangerous, and at this point it stops us from making any contact whatsoever with any US official. We will not be making any more trips south until there’s been some recognition down there that they are now behaving like a banana republic. I’m not optimistic.
Arrow: I figured they already knew my name from the whole draft dodger/amnesty thing so if they wanted to find me they could. When we came to Canada way back then we accepted that we might never be able to go back to the states and after we were here for a couple of years found that we didn’t really want to. An exception for family visits was our only wish. President Carter’s amnesty came years after we took Canadian citizenship and all we ever took from it was the ability to visit family and the odd shopping trip with friends. If worse comes to worse we are back to where we were in 1973 but with a lot fewer relatives. We will miss visiting them but it will give us a good reason to push for them to visit us. We probably don’t owe any taxes (never made that much money) and Canada says it won’t collect penalties so really just a travel restriction and we travel mostly to more fun places – China, Egypt, Europe, etc.
In short, no bravery required from us.
Blaze: I lost that bible a long time ago but I remember that it said something like …A new Testament for Non-Speakers of English… and had some wording that was hilarious. We also had tea provided by the local chapter of the IODE in real china cups. Altogether a surreal experience!