Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

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1,795 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)”

  1. @Arrow and Ladybug

    So do I have the timing correct re the Vancouver consulate? Your first appointments (your wife’s appt – Arrow) was early March. 2nd appointment is almost 5 months later and then who knows how long you wait for CLN. It would be great to know why Vancouver requires two appointments for ‘relinquishing’ when other consulates do it in one appt. And it sounds like you have to bring the same paperwork to the 2nd app

    Perhaps, Arrow, when you and your wife have that August 16th appointment, you could ask why each consulate has different procedures, different timelines.

  2. @tiger

    First appointment was March 15, letter came first week in June, email was sent within two days of that, and the phone call came today (28th). We’ll see what we can find out at the second appointment — but I’ve talked to a few people in the immigration/citizenship field who say there has been a significant jump in the number of applications in Vancouver. One lawyer told me the time between 1st & 2nd appointments can run up to 4 months. Ours is 5, but I suspect we could have got a time in mid-July but for this planned trip to Europe.

    I can’t think why it takes so long since I don’t think they do anything with the application — that all happens in Washington. It will be a combination of heavy demand and shrinking resources, likely.

  3. sadiegirl –

    I have followed your comments, and the various comments you have gotten back, since you appeared at Brock. If I took the time (no way!) to extract and organize all of that material, I could cutely demonstrate the perils of off-the-cuff friendly “advice.” First of all, just look at the contradictions and the backtracking.

    You want certainty. You want simplicity. You want things to be the way you think they should be. Welcome to the club of Brock. Ultimately, you have to do your own drudgery, your own sifting, your own analysis of risks and tradeoffs. Even paying an expert big bucks will guarantee you zilch. What you think or feel definitely does not matter. What the US thinks may or may not matter.

    People who tell you that your mom is OK as is are taking quite an aggressive stance. The experts who want your money to do the “full de-ostrich” are going a super conservative route.

    Salient fact number one is that your mom has a newish passport and now has data filed into that US system. Given the current power of data processing, successful matching seems probable to me. She really could get sat right down on a hotplate by trying to bumfuzzle her way across the border with just a Canadian passport, when the law requires use of the US passport. Just let a cranky border guard catch your little old mom trying to pull something off. The corollary of the passport is that it seems very unlikely that the loot-sucking State Dept would ever do a “preponderance of evidence” conclusion that she could just hand back that little blue booklet that looked like fun, and all could be forgotten. Also bear in mind that the tax-filing linkages of the US passport are demonstrably in tighten-up mode.

    If I were 77 (hope I remember that age right) and in your mom’s boots, I would lie low and never cross that border again. Canada has said it will not enforce against its own citizens.

    If border abstention seems not possible, the other path seems pretty clear: to become “compliant” with whatever requirements, to renounce for $450, to “log out” of that system. At a minimum, great cost of time and effort to appease the bureaucracy.

    To do anything else looks like choosing to hang forever on the gotcha hook of uncertainties (border, FATCA, FBAR, passport, brand-new initiatives, etc.). In other words, to toss around in limbo forever. My 2¢ plus. With no certainties and no guarantees.

  4.  *I’m planning to contact the US Consulate in Vancouver tomorrow to book my first appointment for renouncing. I just read on the renunciation guide website that the actual date of expatriation is the date of the FIRST appointment, not the second appointment which involves the ceremony. Can someone confirm this? It’s important to be clear on this because it affects the timing of the forms, i.e., when 1040 ends and 1040NR begins. From reading various reports it seems that the CLN is backdated to the date of the ceremony/second appointment, correct?

  5. *USX  You are not doing Sadie girl and her Mom any favours by scaring her with the idea that she could be ‘sat down on a hotplate’  B.S.

    My advice is not aggressive. It’s the best advice they’ve had here so far. DO NOTHING. She was born in Canada 75+ years ago. Use some common sense and stop worrying people without reason. 

  6. *I will second what usxcanada had to say about computers. Hand your Canadian passport to the US border guard and they have your full name, date and year of birth, sex, and location of birth. This will probably come up as an exact match to a US citizen. The border guard will in all probability ask if you are the same person as the one in the database, first giving you the chance to be honest. I have a hunch they are trained to ask questions that they know the answer to. Even if your name is John Smith, there are probably less than five born on a given day, and probably none of them share your middle name. Add the location of your birth to the mix, and they will know you are the same person that is in the database.

  8. *@Chester 12, If I were 77 years old I would do nothing and stay in Canada and be 100% safe. I have traveled to the US on my Canadian passport with US birthplace and had no problem at all. If the Mother of Sadie girl were to go to the US with her Canadian passport she would probably be allowed in to the US without a problem also. If however she was asked by the border guard if she also had a US passport, and did not tell the truth, I do think she could be in at least a little trouble, denied entry perhaps.

  9. *@Chester 12, My posts are a little out of sync here now. My point was they will now who you are. If asked about your US status, tell the truth to the border guard, don’t fib. If you tell the truth all is probably good.

  10. *True North.  Good. I think we agree.  Sadie Girl’s Mom shouldn’t file anything. She should travel south only if necessary. If she travels south she should use her Canadian passport. She shouldn’t lie to a border guy.

  11. @SadCdn,

    The CLN is effective the date of the expatriating act, which in the case of renunciation is the date the oath of renunciation is signed.  According to the DOS Manual, it must be signed in the presence of a consular official, who countersigns it.  The consular official then enters the date of the expatriating act on the CLN form which s/he sends to Washington. 

    “c. Next, the renunciant must read Form DS-4080, Oath/Affirmation of Renunciation of the Nationality of the United States, and then sign it.

    d. You must sign both Form DS-4080 and Form DS-4081 to attest that you witnessed the actions of the renunciant.”

     http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/115645.pdf

    The problem referred to in the renunciation guide is that the person wants to do this at the first visit (which makes perfect sense to me, FWIW) but the consular official insists on a second visit.

    My take on this (and it’s just my take) is:

    (1)   IRS is going to go by the expatriation date on the CLN, which is the date the oath was signed by the renunciant in the presence of a consular official who countersigns it.

    (2)   Does a person have a right to insist of having the oath signed at the first meeting (thereby having no need for a second meeting)?  Perhaps yes, but if the local consulate does not agree, it could take even longer to get a ruling from DOS than it would to wait for a second meeting.

    For the record, I’ll paste renunciationguide’s opinion here.

    “It’s possible the IRS might initially state that your expatriation date is the day of your “ceremony” [instead of the date of your first visit] if that’s the date which they have on record from the Department of State.  However, the text of the laws is unambiguous.  In fact, it’s so clear that we doubt the IRS would actually fight on this issue.”

    http://renunciationguide.com/FAQ.html#DateOfExpatriationAtFirstInterviewOrSecond

    I’m not as optimistic as renunciationguide that IRS wouldn’t fight on this issue, but I’m the first to say I’m no expert on these matters.  So, just my 2c as an average Joe.

  12. Someone who relinquished during the winter with the assistance of a lawyer posted the text of the affidavit they provided to the Consulate. Can someone direct me to that posting. thanks.

  14. @hazy2

    I think you might be referring to the “statutory declaration” that Arrow posted with regard to his wife’s relinquishment appointment. (Appointment was March 15th).

    He posted the wording of the declaration on February 29/2012 @ 1:31 P.M. on the Renunciation and Relinquishment of U.S. Citizenship thread. So it should be on this thread.

    I believe that Arrow stated when they went to the appointment, the consulate did not take the declaration, only took the official forms ie 4079 and 4081. Hope this helps

  15. @USX

    If there is a great computer system that can catch minnows that should be traveling on their US passport, that would be so fantastic.  It is true that such technology might exist to pick up that random Canadian with a CND birthplace who actually has the same name as X–US citizen who wants to hide behind Canadian citizenship.  If that ever happens, I’d love to hear about it.  But what could happen to X?  Arrested, never heard from again?  Stuck in Guantanamo Bay?  Likely, they will just tell X to remember the US passport next time, or at worst, refuse X entry into the United States without the US passport.  Nevertheless, X, if she wants protection from Canada, must travel only on her Canadian passport as a Canadian.  If she enters as a US citizen, she can be detained and Canada can do nothing for her because of the doctrine of non-interference.  Furthermore, if it ever were to come to it and I think unlikely in the extreme, and she wanted to argue that she was Canadian only, actually using the US passport would belie that claim. 

    I doubt seriously that there is much risk for her to enter the US.  However, I would suggest avoiding the following:  (1) expensive travel plans that require entry into the United States (such as cruise taking off from Galveston or Miami); (2) traveling with US airlines to some third destination (e.g., like Europe or Asia through Newark or Chicago).  This isn’t about risk of detention, but about losing money spent on an expensive vacation because you were held up by US border officials.

  16. This was Arrow’s actual comment provided by tiger.

    Arrow
    February 29, 2012 at 1:31 pm
    Simple answer – yes. The statutory declaration (or affidavit if it’s for a court procedure) simply outlines my wife’s firm belief that in 1974 when she became a Canadian citizen, she believed (and still believes) she had relinquished her US citizenship, that she did so voluntarily and with intent to relinquish, and It documents the “facts” around her immigration to Canada in 1969, her complete and final divorce of all things American.

    Y’know what — I’ll copy it here with name removed:

    STATUTORY DECLARATION

    Canada )
    Province of British Columbia )
    To Wit: )

    I, XXXXXXX, of XXXX Drive, North Vancouver, British Columbia, DO SOLEMNLY DECLARE THAT:

    1. I was born XXXX, 1946 in XXXX, Massachusetts, USA and lived as a United States citizen and resident until June 18, 1969. While in the United states, I attended school, graduated from Northeastern University in 1969, obtained a U.S. Social Security Number, worked at several part time jobs, filed US income tax returns as required by law, and paid all taxes owing.

    2. I married my current husband, XXXX, a British Subject living in the US as a landed immigrant, in 1967. Together we applied, and were accepted, for immigration to Canada (where my husband spent his childhood) in 1969. On XXXX, 1969, we entered Canada at Blackpool, Quebec and became landed immigrants in Canada.

    3. In July of 1969, we settled in Calgary, Alberta and each gained full-time employment, after applying for and receiving a Canadian Social Insurance Number. We established permanent residence in Calgary, obtained drivers licences from the Province of Alberta, transferred our vehicle registration and insurance to Alberta, and completed other normal activities connected to making Calgary our permanent home.

    4. In 1974, having waited five years as required by Canadian Citizenship regulations, I applied for and was granted Canadian citizenship. I willingly and enthusiastically submitted my application for Canadian citizenship, and swore an oath of allegiance to the Queen and to Canada.

    5. I did so in the full belief – based on reading the rules governing loss of U.S. citizenship as laid out in the US Immigration and Naturalization Act (INA) – that to take out Canadian citizenship constituted an automatic revocation of my status as a US Citizen. It was, therefore, my full intention, upon acquiring Canadian citizenship, to relinquish my US citizenship. I took this action of my own free will.

    6. The ninth amendment of the US Constitution and the Expatriation Act of 1868 guarantee my right of expatriation, and my relinquishment of US citizenship is in effect from the day I willingly accepted Canadian Citizenship. Section 349 of the INA specifies several conditions under which US citizenship may be lost, including: “becoming a naturalized citizen of another country, or declaring allegiance to another country, after reaching age 18.”

    7. Since arriving in Canada in 1969, my only connection to the U.S. has been to visit family from time to time, to take vacations, and the occasional business trip related to my employment in Canada. I have lived and worked continuously in Canada since 1969. I have fully complied with all Canadian laws governing my life and work, including filing annual income tax returns and paying all taxes owed.

    8. Since acquiring Canadian citizenship in 1974, I have participated fully in Canadian life as a Canadian citizen, including voting in all federal elections since 1974, provincial elections in both Alberta and British Columbia, and municipal elections in every municipality in which I have lived. In 1982, along with my husband, I adopted a Canadian First Nations child (with full status) as my son.

    9. I have not lived, nor have I worked, in the U.S. since 1969, and have not considered myself a U.S. citizen since 1974. I have not participated in any aspect of U.S. life and I have not voted in any US election, nor have I claimed any U.S. benefit whatsoever. I have never possessed a U.S. passport, nor have I ever applied for one. I own no property in the U.S., nor have I had any source of employment income from the U.S. I have not filed any income tax returns to the US since 1969; it is my firm belief that having relinquished my US citizenship through acquiring Canadian citizenship, that I am not obligated to do so.

    I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing it to be true and knowing that it is of the same force and effect as if made under oath.

    DECLARED BEFORE ME, )
    At North Vancouver, )
    British Columbia, on )
    This______day of______________, 20_____. ) _________________________
    ) XXXX
    )
    )
    )
    ______________________________________)
    A NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR )
    The Province of British Columbia

    My Commission expires:________________

    This information is also required in filling out the forms for seeking the CLN — but our lawyer said anything you can do to strengthen your resolve is useful, and swearing out a statutory declaration is the equivalent of testifying under oath in court. It can’t hurt, and it might help.

    And it cost $35 to get it notarized.

    The other documents are straightforward — birth certificate, marriage certificate, passports, citizenship certificate (and I will get a certified copy of that through Service Canada.)

    Will be making the phone call soon for an appointment.

  17. @ tiger and Calgary 411

    Thanks. That was exactly was I was looking for.

    BTW, is there a way to easily go to the first comments on a thread?. It seems that when a thread with many posting is opened, you’re taken to the last page of comments. The R & R & CLN thread has a great deal of useful information posted months ago that may be missed by visitors.

  19. After relinquishment, does a person still have to do taxes and Fbars or only fill out IRS form 8854?

    I am a senior about  to relinquish citizenship soon. Already made the appointment.I have read so much stuff that my head is ready to explode. The bank I deal with is looking up records going 6 years back.I am hoping that the relinquishment will be backdated to when I swore an oath to Canada and the Queen and her heirs in 2005.

  20. @ hazy2

    I thought Petros put together an excellent statement too when he relinquished so I saved it. Here it is …

    Petros (Peter W. Dunn)
    Here is my statement at my renunciation ceremony at the US consulate in Toronto on April 7, 2011:
    I have lived in Canada most of my adult life. I have married a Canadian. After so many years in Canada it became clear that I have a great attachment to Canada, to my Canadian friends, to my Canadian wife and her family, and to my church community in Canada. I felt that it was therefore necessary to become a Canadian citizen so that I may become a full member of this great and wonderful country and its people. Therefore, I applied for Canadian citizenship in 2010, and I also had, even at that time, the intention of relinquishing my US citizenship. For in taking my pledge to the Queen of Canada, Elizabeth II, on February 28, 2011, I realized that it would be absurd for me to be of divided loyalty. My duty to the Queen and to the Dominion of Canada precludes me from maintaining citizenship in the United States of America, since when one country calls me to serve, dual citizenship could potentially create a conflict of interest. To avoid all such conflicts, I have decided with my full volition and all my heart, to relinquish my United States citizenship once and for all, realizing that it is an irrevocable act.

  21. When people relinquish or renounce and they are supposedly free of the IRS what happens to their Social Security? Would the receipt of an SS cheque mean they would have to file IRS forms and FBARS again? It’s freedom from filing we are after so would my husband have to forego what is due to him from SS just to stay free, when that time comes?

  22. @Em

    Good question. My wife is entitled to an SS payment based on her contributions made while she was still a US citizen. But she will not apply for it, for a couple of reasons; 1) It might reconnect her to the US in a way that would indeed compromise her claim that she’s no longer an American, and; 2) philosophically, she won’t take money from some place that is trying to work her over.

    You shouldn’t have to forgo it, you earned it. But the US doesn’t do things out of a sense of fairness and justice any more, so we just plain don’t trust them to do anything based on a moral principle.

  23. @Em

    I don’t believe the receipt of a Social Security cheque would require the filing of tax forms. I have a 97 year old collecting Social Security (a widow’s pension). She was born a Canadian, remained a Canadian her whole life and only receives the SS because her late husband worked in Seattle for many years. The Canadian tax returns has special rules regarding SS based on the treaty between our two countries. The whole amount goes on to the Canadian return and then a portion is deducted prior to ‘taxable income’.

    Unless the tax treaty between Canada and the US is altered, your husband should be able to collect his SS without any hassle even after he has relinquished/renounced.

  24. @ Arrow

    “… philosophically, she won’t take money from some place that is trying to work her over.”

    Taking money from such a place would be just fine with us but not at the cost of our sanity. The IRS paperwork burden plus the constant stress of possibly making an innocent mistake is not worth the SS cheque, even though it means a frugal retirement for us. We’ve been frugal all our lives so it would be the same old, same old for us. You are bang on about the lack of fairness.

  25. Arrow wrote:  

    But the US doesn’t do things out of a sense of fairness and justice any
    more, so we just plain don’t trust them to do anything based on a moral
    principle.

    Fairness is when you pay your “fair share”.  That means you pay to the United States your “fair share” from what you make in Canada and the people in the United States partake in your fair share to pay for their food stamps, unemployment, welfare, and now Obamacare.  They have “sense of fairness and justice”; it just doesn’t agree with your idea of what is fair and just.

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