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1,795 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions)”

  1. ok, I see one answer
    “Months later, I called for an appointment, renounced 4 days later and got a CLN after two months (last month).”
    I could get a bus to Switz if I can’t find anything faster in my country.

  2. Thanks Petros, I wondered why the updated site didn’t allow amendments as it once did. Now I understand…I think!

  3. Thanks Tom Benedict… My expatriation act was in 1979, and I assume that will be the expatriation date on the CLN. How is IRS to know whether or not I was rich during the ten following years? (I wasn’t anyway.) Or does that mean ten years after getting the CLN?

    Isn’t it weird. IRS seems to disapprove of the DOS handling of things. On page 14 of 7 FAM 1220 which guides the consulates it is clearly stated “The effective date of loss of nationality is the date of the expatriating act, not the date the CLN is approved.”

    Anyway, from what I’ve read on this site, IRS doesn’t seem to be coming after old relinquishers.

  6. Well, that person needs to come to Isaac Brock for information regarding renunciation in Toronto. Some of us here can’t respond because we are banned from ExpatForum. Perhaps someone who is hooked into that site can refer him to this site (much to ExpatForum’s disapproval).

    (This one boggles the mind — If I get US citizenship for my daughter (who should be eligible since I’m a US citizen) within 2013, would that hinder my ability to renounce my own US citizenship later upon becoming a Canadian citizen? — The child is likely already a US citizen, but if not, why attach that ball and chain?)

  7. @ Calgary,

    I kept my account with that site open and I check out that site regularly to see if I can provide info of use to anyone — I’ve been able to provide some straight info on basic procedure re consulates and 8854 stuff and debunk a few myths. But we can’t link to Brock there or mention it there — they just snip it out — which is really really frustrating, but I figure no sense for me to keep trying that as no sense getting banned if I want to provide some information there.

    Sometimes people who post there do turn up here in a day or two and I’m so glad to see that happen. As for this person, it would be great if he turns up here, because it was too convoluted (at least for me anyway) to address much of his questions, such as that one, within the confines of that venue.

  8. Pravda: “Americans renounce US citizenship to pursue destiny in Russia”

    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/14-05-2012/121102-americans_renounce_citizenship-0/

    Congratulations Carl Lenin! You have managed to outdo Vladimir Ilyich himself.

    From the article:

    “An oft-cited reason for giving up one’s US passport is the US law known as Facta, or the Fair and Accurate Credit Transactions Act, passed into law in 2010 and to be implemented in 2013, which is a draconian expansion of America’s already uniquely onerous tax laws for expatriates.”

    “Finally, if this were not sufficient reason to change one’s citizenship, there is also the comparative difference in income tax rates, for example, a flat rate of 13% in Russia according to the Russian Tax Code, a flat rate of 12% in Belarus according to the Belorussian Tax Code, and a flat rate of 15% in Ukraine according to the Ukrainian Tax Code, compared with a combined federal-state rate of up to 46% now, and up to 50% starting in 2013, in such US states as California and New York.”

    “The United States Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) of 1996 mandates that the name of every American who renounces their citizenship be published in the Federal Register, based on the premise that individuals who do so are unpatriotic tax dodgers who deserve to be publicly shamed.”

    “However, the motivations for Americans exchanging their citizenship for that of another country, particularly that of Russia, Belarus, or Ukraine, are often far more complicated and intertwined. Among the reasons cited by Americans for moving to Russia, Belarus, or Ukraine, and in many cases giving up their US citizenship, are, in addition to taxation, employment, education, religion, culture, foreign policy, marriage to a foreign national, and more.”

  10. Concerning Canadian citizens…I’ve read a lot on this site, but I still can’t find out why most of them would bother to renounce or relinquish. Some who have been maintaining their dual status say it is so they can not have to file tax returns and have big accountants bills. But why not just stop paying? Some say they want to escape FATCA, but so what if they report on you? They can’t collect?

    Would any of you want to indicate if any of the following reasons apply in your case, or some other reason ? :

    1. Need to travel in the US?
    2. Seizable assets in the US?
    3. Fear that Canada will eventually help IRS collect here?
    4. Need to do cross-border business?
    5. Fear of IRS harassment even if they can’t do anything?
    6. Fear of IRS zombies 😉

    Anything else? I hope I don’t sound like a crank on this, but I feel like I’ve missed understanding something.

  12. Old&Simple:

    1. They say you’re rich if:

    1. Your average annual net income tax for the last 5 tax years ending before the date of your action to relinquish your citizenship or terminate your residency was more than $100,000, or

    or

    2. Your net worth on the date of your action was $500,000 or more.
    The amounts above are adjusted for inflation if your expatriation action is after 1997

    As Far as 8854, you aren’t required to fill it out even if you are rich. Only people who’s CLN date is after Feb 6, 1995 or later were subject to HIPPA’s 6039G reporting requirement on 8854.

  13. Actually, for completeness sake, the 10 year rule went into effect Jan 1. 1967 on the Foreign investor Tax act, but they didn’t have an objective measure who was rich back then.

  14. Old&Simple
    possibly good question for Canadians. Other countries will report to USA and will likely help to collect.

  15. @ Tom Benedict: Where can I find that reference to the rich numbers? Some of us are retirement savers and need to look into that.

  16. Given that one has done their taxes as best as they could, without having done the FBARS. What of the renunciation requirement that one is up to date with taxes.

    Is one safe once one gets the CLN? The renunciation cannot be revoked, I assume?

    If the IRS becomes unhappy at some Point between the renunciation ceremony and receipt of CLN, is one in the worst Place of 2 situations?

    From what I’ve read Before, it is only a signature on the 8874 paper, which is seldom checked?

    what about the check upon your rich or not rich?

  18. Cool. It appears that the numbers you post relate to 2004 renunciation

    Expatriation After June 16, 2008:

    If you expatriated after June 16, 2008, the expatriation rules apply to you if you meet any of the following conditions.

    1.Your average annual net income tax for the 5 years ending before the date of expatriation or termination of residency is more than:

    a.$139,000 if you expatriated or terminated residency in 2008.

    b.$145,000 if you expatriated or terminated residency in 2009 or 2010.

    c.$147,000 if you expatriated or terminated residency in 2011.

    2.Your net worth is $2 million or more on the date of your expatriation or termination of residency.

    3.You fail to certify on Form 8854 that you have complied with all U.S. federal tax obligations for the 5 years preceding the date of your expatriation or termination of residency.

  20. @Old&Simple,

    Need for “foreign” banking accounts, those essential Canadian (other country) accounts that we use each day for our daily living requirements — groceries, rent, transportation, etc., as well as being able to take advanage of registered Canadian (and other country) retirement and other savings accounts, as every other non-USP Canadian. Witness the “canary in the coalmine” happenings regarding “foreign” bank accounts in Switzerland and some other European countries.

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