The Isaac Brock Society consists of individuals who are concerned about the treatment by the United States government of US persons who live in Canada and abroad.
If clicking on a link brings you to the wrong page in the comment thread, click here to arrive on the current page of the thread: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/14/about-the-isaac-brock-society/
The United States is one of two countries in the world that taxes its people no matter where in the world they may reside. The other is Eritrea, which the USA has condemened for terrorism and for its diaspora tax. The majority of US persons who live abroad are not aware of their filing requirements. But recently, the US government has decided to crack down on those who are not in compliance.
But what is more, the US government has begun, since about 2004, to apply with great pressure a long-neglected requirement of 35-year old law called the Bank Secrecy Act. That requirement is FBAR, the foreign bank account report, which the United States government expects annually from those who have accounts outside of the United States which exceed $10,000 in aggregate. The fines for failure to file this form are extortionate, and virtually no US person who lives abroad even knew about FBAR, while most of them, over a certain age, own bank accounts with retirement savings exceeding that amount. The threats of fines and imprisonment has frightened many people who as a result have consulted expensive accountants and tax lawyers to get this mess sorted out, only to face high accounting or legal fees on top of potential fines and back taxes. In 2009 and 2011, the IRS offered voluntary disclosure programs (OVDI). Some who entered into the 2009 OVDI, because of fear of the penatlies, were shocked when the IRS assessed them fines in the tens of thousands, essentially treating them as tax evaders instead of a law abiding citizens in their countries of residence.
For many US expats, renunciation now seems like a really good idea. Why not? Many haven’t lived in the US for years and now they have few ties there except perhaps some family members. So they want to renounce their citizenship only to find that the laws regarding expatriation are confusing and that the exit tax requirements are at best complicated and invasive, and at worst, extortionate and utterly in violation of their right to expatriate.
The media coverage of this issue has been uneven. There have a been a few balanced stories, but most of the time, the media has merely publicized the purposes of the US government; this is especially true of US media sources. The Canadian media has generally done a much better job of grabbing the attention of the world about the abuses of the US government. That being said, even the Canadian media sometimes falls into the IRS trap of projecting fear in order to force compliance. Overall, we regret when the media offers only condemnation and fear without telling the story from the side of the victims or informing them of their rights and alternatives.
US persons abroad also face US border guards who are starting to put pressure on all those who have a US place of birth to travel only on a US passport, even if the person has not been a US person for decades–an arbitrary change of policy making those who relinquished citizenship into would-be loyal taxpayers to a profligate government that has to borrow 40 cents on every dollar its spends.
The Isaac Brock Society is here to fight. Sir Isaac Brock prepared Canadians for war with the United States and gave his life in repelling a US invasion in 1812. So we also want to fight for US persons who are frightened by the IRS, the border guards, the compliance condors, and the media. We are here to provide one another with resources and strategies, comfort and advice.
But not only so, we are here to warn other Canadians about the illegal incursion of the US federal government into the lives of the US expat community. Pretty soon, with the new FATCA legislation, this arrogant attitude of the United States will affect every man, woman and child on the planet who wants to open or maintain a bank account or to invest in a retirement fund. Now, according to FATCA, you will have to tell the United States whether you are a US person when you open up a bank account in, e.g., Australia or Thailand. This makes every country in the world a protectorate of the United States, for, if they comply with FATCA, they are ceding their very sovereignty to a nation which has not invaded or conquered the rest of the world, but only uses its waning hegemony over the financial sphere to coerce other nations.
So whether you are a US person living in exile, a Canadian or a citizen of any other country, we ask you to join us in this struggle for freedom and justice.
Just arrived to this interesting community. I needed a place to tell all and learn from others. Briefly, I am Canadian. Born in the US (left at 10yo). Living in Mexico with three dual Cdn Mx kids.
Worked in Canada and Mexico.
I have small land/house holdings in Mexico, a used up inheritance from my immigrated to Canada parents, a disability settlement from WCB (Canada) and a small disability pension (from Canada). Havent dealt with US as a resident for over 30 years. Only in last year and half have I been forced to get a US passport (interrogated and intimidated by DHS, in yransit ebtween Mx and Canada). It was a trap I should have ignored. I have not volunteered or submitted anything else in 30 years. My sisters are in the same boat, we all came to Canada in 1967. One sister is trying to renunce (sp?),, and is having difficulty. I want to but am still hesitating as deadlines have passed threats and penalties have grown, and my tendency to ignore them is becoming increasingly impossible. This could ruin me, yet I somehow cant believe they are serious or that they are including me in their trap..
*Have you gotten a US passport yet? Others will have more to comment but my advise is I would try no matter how hard to fly directly between Canada and Mexico for right now. Air Canada between Mexico City and Pearson? Getting a US Passport at this time will only cause you heartache.
post deleted?
Is this the post? I found it in the “moderation” file. I have no idea how it got there, or why.
It had been on the FATCA Forum thread, so I put it back there.
No this is it, or a retypes version… Thx…
Hello Tim, yes, I got a US passport about a year and a half ago. It’s a long story but basically I flew into the US from Mx to visit friends, and on my way to north to Canada. US Customs flagged me for a secondary with the DHS who kept me for over 2 hours inputting all my answers to their database, all tied to the chip implanted inside my Cdn passport. When I reentered the US from Canada 6 weeks later (to return to Mx) all that info was regurgitated to a new US customs agent who asked for my US passport. I lamely said it was “in process”. He let me in. I had already made plans to travel back to Canada on 4 tickets that stopped over in Houston (for me and my kids). I only paid $1000! A direct flight for all of us would have cost a fortune! Anyway, I asked around and was advised it would be better to get a US passport — a benign requirement already known about. However, the shtf 3 months later, September 2011, when I became aware of the IRS and the new laws and that I had made a bad decision. Now, of course, it is even worse. I have kids in Mexico I have roots in Canada, I cant imagine never returning to that huge country in between, if only for the logistics involved. I have asked the Cdn authorities to reprogram my chip so I can use it again, and start over — I havent received a reply. I hear there is no actual law that requires me to use a US passport, is that true? If I again use my US passport, do they even know about my Cdn. “other” existence? Canada tells me that not using a Cdn passport while entering the US means I will not have access to help or consular services should they arrest me. Unbelievable….
And now for some good news. After being abducted by the USA in 1983 and being held prisoner there for 27 years, Laura Secord finally returned to Canada in 2010. Thank goodness she was home to celebrate the 200th anniversary of the War of 1812.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/story/2010/02/19/laura-secord-bought.html
*the US law requires that you use their passport while travelling< it states ther on naturalization certificate, i renounced in Calgary cple wks ago all went well, they just wanted to know reasons why, and that there was no turning back, thnks to all i was more prepared from all info i received from this site
*@Charlie488, Congratulation!!
@msd, it sounds as if you might have a good case for relinquishment, not renunciation. Did you go through a citizenship/naturalisation ceremony before you got a Canadian passport? Have a read of the threads about relinquishment under Our Resources on the righthand side of the page to find out more. Not only should it be easier/cheaper/faster, it should clear you of any tax obligations.
the only thing you save is the 450$ by relinquishing, correct ?
Robert, no, depending on which embassy you want to go to you may also not need a second appointment if you relinquish rather than renounce. Basically you’re telling the embassy that you’ve already committed a relinquishing act and you’re just formalising that when you go there to take the oath. With a renunciation they’ll interview you, ask questions to check that you’re not being coerced in any way and to make sure you understand the gravity of the situation if you renounce. Then you’ll have a second appointment some weeks/months later so you have time to reflect and make sure you really want to do this. Only at the second appointment would you take the oath and finally renounce. Of course some embassies are doing second appointments anyway for relinquishers, even though it’s not needed. That’s why going to the right embassy is vital if you want a quick relinquishment, or even renunciation. Vancouver is notorious for dragging it’s heels, with second appointments scheduled a year or more down the line from the first ones. Switzerland’s US embassy on the other hand, just uses one appointment whether you’re relinquishing or renouncing. I’ve just renounced this week in Bern, having made the initial enquiry to get the paperwork just before Christmas 2012 so around 4 months altogether with another 2-3 months for the CLN to arrive. So depending on where you are you need to check on the Consulate Report Directory thread http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/ to see how others have been dealt with at the embassy you want to go to. They seem to vary wildly in Canada so definitely check; some have found it better to go to an embassy hundreds of miles away because it has a quicker turnaround time.
What is the average wait time for the approved CLN after renunciation ceremony?
@exp,
Here is the database mainted here that shows times for CLN’s received as reported to Isaac Brock: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/relinquishment/
You also may be interested in individual reports this is based on: http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/
@calgary411
Thank you very much!
Am I correct to understand that the embassy officer who conducted the oath decided on the approval or denial of the CLN application, sending it to the State Department is merely for processing/cancelling passport?
@exp,
Generally speaking, yes — the person is told the CLN can be expected in XX amount of time. Saying that, there are a few instances when the renunciant or the relinquisher is told at their appointment that the decision is made in Washington, DC. As you’ll see by reading the individual reports in the Consulate Report Directory and viewing the database, procedures differ at some consulates; i.e. Vancouver Consulate in Canada requires two appointments vs. other Canadian consulates requiring one appointment, thus a very long total time from start to finish.
does anyone know of any actual case of denial of a Renunciation by the SD?
@exp,
As far as I know, we don’t have any reports of denials of renunciation here at Isaac Brock. Have you gone through with a renunciation appointment and fear it will be rejected by the Department of State in Washington, DC?
Is there a way to send a private message to another commenter?
@ CanuckDoc,
There’s no private messaging function through the blog unfortunately, as the blog software doesn’t have that feature.
What we do is you can send an e-mail to a moderator, saying you’d like to get in touch with So-and-So, and the moderator will forward your e-mail to So-and-So, so they can contact you.
If you’d like to do that, you can e-mail me at pacifica at isaacbrocksociety dot ca and I’ll be happy to do so.
Just wondering if any ex-pats have been denied entry into the US?Am thinking about renouncing(have Cn. passport as well) but don’t want to give up going to our condo in Az. for the winter and am scared I will be refused entry. Thanks!
Katy, all I can say is it’s extremely unlikely that you would be refused entry to the States in the near future provided you’ve met all the necessary travel requirements for entering (ESTA/visa/whatever). I don’t think we’ve had any reports of actual denials, but some people have had problems with being detained for a while at border crossings while their status is checked. If you were born in the US, an American birthplace listed on your passport seems to automatically get their attention these days as they are telling people that if they’re a US citizen they must enter/leave the States on an Amercian passport. That’s why the advice is to carry a copy of your CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States of America) with you when travelling so you can show them that you are no longer a citizen. It you were born in Canada, then it isn’t likely that they’d pick up on you in the same way.
I say near future because there are some Congress people who are so rabidly paranoid about us so-called “tax evaders and traitors” that they would love to pass laws that ban all renunciants from ever entering the country again while at the same time cancelling the effects of renunciation for tax purposes so we have to continue to file/pay US tax for the rest of our lives. Luckily they are few and the possibility of them getting what they wish is small.
Still, the circumstances are different for everyone and only you can decide what is the best path for you. You should also consider the “substantial presence” part of your stay. If you’re in the States for I think it’s more than 183 days you would be considered a US resident for tax purposes.
@Katy,
Any Canadian citizen who has invested in an Arizona condo to spend their winters, especially if they have other USP indicia, should protect themselves as much as possible with the filing of IRS Form 8840 each year http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8840.pdf. Pass the word to those who don’t know about this important filing. You might also find some relevant information here: http://www.moodystax.com/stop-know-the-changes-in-us-tax-law-before-purchasing-that-us-vacation-property/
Great CBC story today about Eritrea’s ongoing shakedown of its overseas citizens … sounds familiar …
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/05/21/eritrea-consul-canada-rick-macinnes-rae.html
I wanted to share my brother’s and my experience today of applying for US citizenship at the Toronto Consulate. We are both Canadian born children of a US parent who is now deceased. Given the information we have taken from the internet, IRS and US citizenship sites, we came to believe that we had to obtain US citizenship (we were never registered as born abroad by our US parent). We completed all the paper work, obtained the documents and booked the appointment and attended for that today. We were to be granted US citizenship, however when we advised them that we actually did not wish to obtain the citizenship and in fact the only reason we had come was because we believed the US required it of us they were dismayed. We were told by the consulate officer and her direct superior that they cannot force anyone who is born outside of the US to acquire citizenship – it is a choice. When we pressed her further stating that this is not the information we are getting she advised clearly that we are not US citizens unless we willingly apply for and accept the citizenship. She stated we can say unequivocally that we are not US citizens unless we wish to be. We respectfully declined the offer of citizenship (to their amazement) and left with our refund and documents in hand. I will certainly sleep better and breathe easier! I hope this helps other Canadian born who are concerned about this.
@SueBee,
I want to thank you for sharing the experience of you and your brother applying for US citizenship at the Toronto Consulate today and being advised that you are not a US citizen unless you wish to be.
I have just sent the following to my Washington DC immigration / nationality lawyer, to my US tax lawyer and to General Consul of Canada, Ottawa Embassy Sylvia D. Johnson. This is a very important question for many in Canada!