This discussion has come up many times before so am creating a space for those who wish to discuss it. I will tidy the post up but need to put somethig up to move the ccomments. But feel free tp begin!
One indicator of a SSL site is in the URL bar instead of “http:” it shows“https” with an image of a lock by it.
This is a quick overview of Secure Socket Layer (SSL)
The U.S.’ tax treaty with the Netherlands has an unusual provision in its “saving clause”: taxes on former U.S. Persons in the Netherlands cannot be imposed on Dutch citizens, only on non-citizens. Unfortunately, today this provision makes little difference, because the expatriation tax occurs on the day before expatriation, when you are not yet a former U.S. Person.
However, back in 2004, the expatriation tax was imposed for ten years after expatriation, meaning this provision indeed shielded Dutch citizens from the U.S. expatriation tax. So when Washington and The Hague negotiated a new protocol to their tax treaty, Congress expressed unhappiness that this provision was retained. In response, Treasury pointed out to them:
The provision in the U.S.-Netherlands treaty is not expected to produce significantly different results than would be provided under section 877 in practice. As described above, the special tax treatment provided in section 877 applies only in the case of individuals whose relinquishment of U.S. citizenship or long-term resident status had a principal purpose of tax avoidance.
Because the Netherlands imposes substantial tax on individuals who are resident there (and only resident individuals who are subject to Netherlands tax are eligible for the benefits of the U.S.-Netherlands tax treaty, including the provision that limits the imposition of U.S. tax), individuals who are trying to avoid tax are unlikely to become residents of the Netherlands.
Three Years of Isaac Brock! Who would have thought we’d be where we are now?
A Brocker friend and I have been talking about writing down the history of Brock. Said friend believes that someday, Brock will be remembered as a major force in bringing down Citizenship-based-taxation as well as a *model* of grassroots advocacy in the best Canadian tradition.
The origins of Brock though, are at the ExpatForum where many of us found ourselves after the famous Barrie McKenna article (I have yet to find the one I am actually thinking of and will update when I find it). I recently told him this and he thanked me; then quickly thought about it and said, “oh, so sorry!.” LOL! Here are some of the people who came together there and helped Brock become what it is today. I have tried really hard to include everyone I can remember; anyone who is left out, please let me know and I will update:
Accidental, AmTaker, Arrow, baird68, cafreeb12, calgary411, canadianhoosier , Deckard1138, Don Podmorro, 416, Foxyladyhawk, Geeeez, Greyowl, Johnnb, justbrowsing, KalC, Lovecheese, mach7, maz57 MonaLisa1776, Nobledreamer, Nononymous, OAP, Outraged Canadian, pacifica, Peg, Petros, quincy, rivka88, rodgod, saddened123, Schubert1975, somerfugl, The Animal, Vangrrrl, zucchero81
I cannot remember exactly when I joined, I think it was the second week of October. A couple of days later I was pretty sure I recognized the writing of someone who had signed Rami’s petition. Her name was cafreeb12 and we became quick online friends.I was a complete newbie to the whole world of posts, comments and public banter. She encouraged me to write, was very supportive and I remain forever grateful to her for that. She was experienced in the political arena and one of the first things she did was set up a show on Friday nights on Blog Talk Radio. She was the host and encouraged me to be a co-host; we did all of 4 programs and Petros was our first guest.
There were two seminal events that are ingrained from the ExpatForum era. First, the infamous utterings of Ambassador David Jacobson; “not out to get honest grandmas” who don’t owe anything to the Internal Revenue Service,’ “My message on this is to sit tight,” “We are not unreasonable. We are not unsympathetic. We are not irresponsible.” While we hoped something positive would happen, everybody was afraid to believe him. We had already suffered Shulman’s threats,the endless fear mongering of the compliance industry, read of the horrors of OVDP 2009, the bait-and-switch of FAQ 35 and so on. We waited and waited for the relief promised by the Ambassador. It finally came in early December in the form of IRS Fact Sheet 2011-13. At first people were not sure this was “it.” Where was the elimination of the FUBAR penalties and the refunds for those minnows who paid dearly in OVDP? Not to be found anywhere, that was for sure. It seemed like it would be safe for many who fit the Examples but then again, even the condors analyzed every phrase and proclaimed there really wasn’t anything new here. Things definitely did not feel like the situation was improving.
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@Isaac Brock Society @Calgary411
Posting here thanks to the kind email from JC regarding my survey. It is a new survey which went live on 5 December 2014. I anticipate it remaining open until mid-January 2015. I am hoping to have a large number of responses in order to really put some nuance and depth – based on research data – into the discussions of citizenship renunciation. Most articles seem to be based on relatively few targeted interviews. I’m hoping to uncover more of the nuance in the situation. The survey is relatively short and asks for some basic demographic data, reasons for moving out of the US, what countries respondents live in now, and asks about citizenship renunciation intentions. I intend to publish academic articles from this, but can also share key findings, likely in February. You may be familiar with my recent book, Migrants or Expatriates? Americans in Europe. I’d be grateful if you could respond to the survey, and also share widely. I can be contacted at ak248@kent.ac.uk. Thank you!
Take the survey: The United States and You – A Survey for US Citizens and Former US Citizens
The United States and You – A Survey for US Citizens and Former US Citizens
There has been a great deal in the news recently about US citizens giving up their US passports, but these reports are largely based on anecdotal evidence and not on systematic research. This survey seeks to fill that gap, and explore, from a research perspective, what factors are playing a role in US overseas citizens’ thought processes on maintaining or renouncing US citizenship.
This survey explores that question, as well as asking a few questions more broadly about interactions with the US. The survey thus seeks to contribute to a deeper, research-based understanding of the interactions of Americans living abroad and the US, including renunciation.
The survey, which should take about 15 minutes, is completely anonymous – you will not be able to be identified. IP addresses are not being collected. You may skip or refuse to answer any question, and you may stop participating in the survey at any point. I take anonymity and the protection of data very seriously – and I appreciate your willingness to participate in this research!
If you have any questions, either now or later, you may contact me, Dr. Amanda Klekowski von Koppenfels, at ak248@kent.ac.uk . I am myself American, and teach and research at the University of Kent, Brussels (www.kent.ac.uk/brussels) and it is in the context of my employment there that I am coordinating this study.
Thank you so much for your participation!
From OAP, who has just completed this latest survey.
I completed the von Koppenfels survey last night and was very impressed. I’ve started many surveys, completed them 1/2 way through, and stopped because it became apparent there was an ‘agenda’; the survey was superficial; or the survey didn’t really want to know the real issues. That’s not the case with this survey.
As explained in her post above, the survey really does offer the opportunity to delve into the nuances. It’s a much more scholarly approach and gives one the chance to go much deeper into an individuals relationship with America, and if the relationship has broken down, a chance to define the detail (both practical and emotional) as to why that has happened. Don’t look to be ‘led’ by the survey. There aren’t the obvious “it’s because of the tax reporting or FATCA stupid” type questions.
It doesn’t take long, but don’t do it in a rush. Through its opportunities to define your issues, it should be far more incisive than the Democrats Abroad survey could ever be. With the right analysis, (and judging from the composition of the survey, I have faith it will be) a much more in depth and informative result will be reached. It could go well beyond the ‘sound bites’ we employ to try to make others understand the issues, and journey into the real crisis some of us face. I look forward to the summary.
I, too, will take the time for this important survey today. Hope many other Brockers join me.
Thanks for all of your work, Dr. Klekowski von Koppenfels!
Many “U.S. Persons” outside of the U.S. are aware of the Reed Amendment — an incoherent & unenforceable 1996 law which makes former U.S. citizens inadmissible to the U.S. if the Attorney General determines they renounced citizenship to avoid taxes — and Chuck Schumer (D-NY)’s attempt to make it worse in 2012 with the Ex-PATRIOT Act. But in the years between, there were nearly two dozen other attempts to pass a different law which also would have exiled former U.S. citizens:
Ineligibility for Visa or Admission To United States.—
(1) In general.— Section 212(a)(10)(E) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1182(a)(10)(E)) is amended to read as follows:
(E) Former citizens not in compliance with expatriation revenue provisions.— Any alien who is a former citizen of the United States who relinquishes United States citizenship (within the meaning of section 877A(e)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986) and who is determined by the Attorney General, after consultation with the Secretary of the Treasury, not to be in compliance with sections 877A and 2801 of such Code (relating to expatriation).
This provision appeared in something I’ll be referring to as the “Baucus Amendment”, after its author Senator Max Baucus. Another piece of the Baucus Amendment created the current 26 USC § 877A expatriation tax, which has been the subject of a great deal of popular and academic attention. But the above-quoted piece of the Baucus Amendment (which I hereby dub “Baucus’ Reed Amendment fix”) has no better-known name; as far as I can see, it’s generally gone unnoticed in the popular press and even tax scholarship (the only person I’ve seen mention it is Michael Kirsch, in his 2004 paper “Alternative Sanctions and the Federal Tax Law”).
Baucus is a Democrat from Montana; however, he wouldn’t have succeeded at getting this provision inserted into so many other bills without help from Republicans on the Senate Finance Committee, in particular Chuck Grassley (R-IA).
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This post appeared on the RenounceUScitizenship blog.
Why I'm Giving Up My Passport http://t.co/c6EdyxZR3T – AKA why it's impossible for #Americansabroad to live under U.S. laws @Jtepper2
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) December 8, 2014
The above tweet references an op-ed that appeared in the December 7, New York Times. The “Op-Ed” was interesting, well written and didn’t add any new insights or information. I then researched who this person is. He is a highly accomplished author, fund manager in London. In fact I intend to read at least one of his books.
Q. Does the U.S. really want to lose citizens of this calibre?
A. They don’t care and they don’t care that they don’t care.
“Stupid is as stupid does.”
This sentiment is confirmed in:
Homelander explains why #Americansabroad are not real Americans http://t.co/IBwErsNu1k – I guess t follows that they should not pay taxes
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) December 8, 2014
In the words of this Homelander:
I think the real question is what makes you an American. If you don’t live here and feel no responsibility for supporting the country, why would anyone care if you decide to renounce your citizenship? There are plenty of people in the world who WANT to be Americans. Many of them come here, contribute to the country and want to become citizens. Those are the real Americans, not the folks who inherited the moniker but seem to think they have no responsibility for the contributing anything to the country.
The “op-ed” by Mr. Tepper includes:
JC has submitted the following to put into its own post so all your comments on these subjects might better reside in one place to keep them together. It’s another opportunity to suggest and for others to read ways those of you who more technologically savvy than I can spread the word:
One of the unstated objectives of The Isaac Brock Community is to spread “the word” of the injustices of US FATCA, CBT, and FBAR; and about the efforts of ADCS and plaintiffs Ginny and Gwen, and the need for donations to ADCS. Speaking with family, friends and other US-defined *US persons* is one way. Writing letters, sending e-mails, and commenting on news articles are other ways.
Community members can share their strategies and tactics for Twitter, Facebook, and other medium in the comments below. For instance, JC may report that there are a dedicated few who are trying to keep the issue of US tax claims in London Mayor Boris Johnson’s Twitter timeline. Let’s hope Mr. Johnson takes notice and applies some of what he learned on leadership from Winston Churchill. Even if he does not act with encouragement of these tweets, others who are tweeting the Lord Mayor of London may take notice.
A few weeks back JC tried to contact Canada’s Commander Chris Hadfield by e-mail and Twitter to try to recruit him to the cause. There has not been a response (as expected). Yet JC may report that all of his tweets to his 1.2 million Twitter followers are about science and space. None about politics. Perhaps this is the way he wishes to keep his brand “Hadfield”.
Kijiji: Free Classifieds in Canada. There have been enough comments on Kijiji by our brilliant LM over the weeks to perhaps have its own feature.
As new posts quickly become old posts and lost in the number we have (See and Search the Isaac Brock Society Archive of Posts), perhaps there is some way information about Kijiji can be included in the resources listed in the right-hand column of our Home Page.
Your thoughts and suggestions for best spreading the word with Kijiji, Twitter, Facebook, etc.?
F.H. Buckley: Canada’s system of government is proving far superior to America’s http://t.co/00PyaAUoff via @fullcomment – Repeal laws hard
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) December 5, 2014
This is a fascinating article. For those who understand how difficult it is to reverse ciizenship-based taxation, FBAR and FATCA consider the following excerpt:
“What Canada has importantly over the U.S. is reversibility, the ability to undo bad laws. That doesn’t happen so easily in America, with the gridlock built into its separation of powers, and that’s a problem Fukuyama himself has identified in two recent books that describe a sclerotic society of special interests which enact wealth-destroying laws. Once passed, Americans are stuck with bad laws. Their constitution doesn’t have a reverse gear.
What Fukuyama recognized in his recent books is James Madison’s error in The Federalist Papers. Madison argued that the separation of powers would prevent bad laws from being enacted in the first place. However, that’s an example of what Nobel laureate Friedrich Hayek called the “fatal conceit,” the idea that planners can anticipate all the problems that might arise with a well-drafted statute. More modestly, Canada’s parliamentary system assumes that, in a world of human fallibility, mistakes will be made, that “experts” are often unreliable, that dumb laws will be passed; and that what is more important is giving the legislator the ability to bring hindsight wisdom to bear in undoing laws which experience tells us were ill-planned. If American government has gotten too large, if the statutory code and the federal regulations have caught a case of elephantiasis, that’s not surprising. The know-it-all hubris of the planner was baked into the American constitution from the start.”
Of course, we should also remember how easy it is to pass bad laws in the first place. Many laws are simply tagged on to unrelated laws. In fact, FATCA itself was a Trojan Horse Law. In fact, as at least one U.S. politician reminds us, sometimes we:
“Have to pass the law so that we can see what’s in in it.”
U.S. laws are so complex that sometimes we have to pass the law just so that we can learn what's in it! https://t.co/H9qJluaCWw
— U.S. Citizen Abroad (@USCitizenAbroad) December 5, 2014
You can read the complete article referenced in he above tweet here.
From: MinFinance/s
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 10:40 AM
To: caroltapanila
Subject: Your correspondence
Finance Minister Oliver’s Letter, Dec 4, 2014
*****************************
My response:
From: caroltapanila
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2014 11:17 AM
To: MinFinance/s ; Michelle.Rempel@parl.gc.ca
Cc: Matt Grant ; Murray Rankin ; Mike.Sullivan.P9@parl.gc.ca ; Nathan Cullen ; Patrick Cain
Subject: Re: Your correspondenceFinance Minister Oliver and my Calgary MP Michelle Rempel,
Thank you for your long-delayed response, which is nothing more than a form letter, personalized with my name, my email address and reference to ” 2013FIN398181; 2013fin400017; 2013fin401222; 2014FIN403230; 2014FIN404518 “.
i.e., not a mention of the Registered Disability Savings Plan that most of my correspondence to you would have been about, the US tax I paid as the Holder of my adult son’s RDSP ($3,661 USD) or the discrimination this applies to my son and others like him who is NOT a US citizen who happens to reside in Canada. You enable the US in their efforts by not placing a “warning sticker” on all Canadian registered accounts and mutual funds that every potential *US Person* must heed.
When will there be any US / Canada Tax Treaty that will address the TFSA, the RESP and the RDSP – and Canadian mutual funds for persons who are defined by the US as *US Persons*?
Pretty deplorable situation when Canada puts its banks before its people, especially the most vulnerable, who are “ENTRAPPED” if accepting the US definition of their US citizenship – when they never lived in the US or had any benefit from the US, my son for 40+ years of his life only in Canada.
I reject your Conservative government action as my Canadian-born son cannot renounce a *supposed* US citizenship due to lack of ‘requisite mental capacity’ and the fact that a parent, a guardian or a trustee cannot act on such a person’s behalf, even with a court order. My son and others like him would have no more requisite mental capacity to go to the US to get a US social security number to be able to back-file any US tax and reporting forms and pay for the same, all without influence from anyone (as must be done for a renunciation of US citizenship, now at a cost of $US 2,350, a sum out of reach of most of Canada’s most vulnerable). Note this ‘lack of requisite mental capacity’ would apply not only to Canadians defined by the US as having a US citizenship who also have a developmental disability but to anyone with a brain injury from an accident or a medical event like a stroke or to persons with an age-related dementia.
How will Canada protect such Canadians? And, if you won’t, why will you not? Shall I refer my bank to you when they ask the NATIONAL ORIGIN of my son – or to MP Gerald Keddy and other Conservatives, who throw back – “Just Renounce” as their uninformed answer to my family’s situation?
Regards,
Carol Tapanila
Calgary, AB, Canada
Why London Mayor Boris Johnson is a poster boy for 8 million U.S. expats: http://t.co/7oZlcURnhz
— Laura Saunders (@Saunderswsj) December 4, 2014
This article is behind a paywall – perhaps somebody can provide a direct link. It apparently will be in the print edition tomorrow so it would be good to get comments up today. The text of the article is here.
The article includes:
Now he has a new claim to fame: as a poster boy for millions of U.S. “tax cheats” living abroad.
Recently, the 50-year-old Mr. Johnson, who holds dual U.S./U.K. citizenship, complained that the U.S. is “trying to hit” him for taxes on the sale of his London home, even though he hasn’t lived in the States since he was five.
In an interview with NPR about Churchill, Mr. Johnson called his U.S. tax bill “absolutely outrageous,” after a listener asked about his citizenship status. When pressed as to whether he would pay, Mr. Johnson said, “No is the answer…why should I?…I pay my taxes to the full in the United Kingdom, where I live and work.” These taxes are often at higher rates than in the U.S., he added.
Mr. Johnson’s spokesman says he has no further comment on the matter. The Telegraph, a British newspaper, has reported that he and his wife bought a London house for GBP470,000 (about $750,000) in 1999 and sold it for GBP1.2 million (about $1.9 million) in 2009. The Internal Revenue Service is prohibited by law from commenting on issues involving individual taxpayers.
Mr. Johnson’s case is a perfect illustration of the dilemmas faced by many of the 7.6 million U.S. citizens living abroad as a result of U.S. authorities’ five-year campaign against secret offshore accounts. It began after disclosures that Americans were being encouraged to hide money in Switzerland.
Most of these expats have never had a numbered Swiss account, but many of them, like Mr. Johnson, are finding they haven’t complied with U.S. tax laws that seem to them highly unfair. “It’s a clear example of the harm befalling citizens caught in the maw of multiple tax systems–a status imposed on every American citizen abroad,” says Jackie Bugnion, a director of American Citizens Abroad, an expat group.
The root cause, experts say, is that both the U.S.’s definition of citizenship and its tax system are broad.
Read more: http://www.nasdaq.com/article/london-mayor-is-poster-boy-for-expat-tax-woes-20141204-00782#ixzz3KxFIzjmS
