FATCA Questions
Ask your questions about FATCA here.
This thread will be focused closely on renunciation questions and answers. If the conversation starts to ramble, those comments will be moved to another thread.
Related threads:
FATCA Discussion Thread for more general discussion of FATCA has opposed to specific questions and answers.
I am passing on a question from a Canadian supporter:
He just wants to know whether his bank account information was turned over by CRA to IRS, and who he should contact at CRA to get the answer on this, as no one he speaks to at CRA will answer his simple question.
Who at CRA should he direct his request to? BB, anyone, do you know the answer?
Simplest thing might be to file an Access to Information Act request. It costs $5, takes five minutes to fill out the online form, and CRA obligated to respond within a certain time period.
https://atip-aiprp.apps.gc.ca/atip/welcome.do
One could also contact one’s MP to explain the situation, then CC them on a letter to the Ministers of Finance and National Revenue. It’s not fast but eventually they will respond.
BB wrote to @Stephen on a different thread …
“I wrote directly to the Revenue Minister. I had to pester her, but she eventually responded – personally.”
And finally, one might also try this:
https://www.canada.ca/en/taxpayers-ombudsman.html
Ron, EmBee, and BB, thanks for your thoughts.
My own preference would be to go with BB’s suggestion and try to get the answer from the Revenue Minister, one of the two Ministers Gwen and Kazia are suing.
The three options are not mutually exclusive.
What do you think the future of FATCA will be? Any guesses?
My guess? It will be much like the present, only worse. Bottom line? Don’t be a US person, either by official means (CLN in hand), somewhat less than official means (self-relinquishers), or by simply denying US-ness if or when asked by a bank.
No one outside the US can change FATCA and no one inside the US cares. FATCA won’t die until the US government dies.
It occurred to me this morning that we are almost halfway through 2020, and though COVID may have thrown a wrench into the works, the much-feared-by-some FATCA crackdown on US person bank accounts without Social Security Numbers has not happened, in Canada, Europe or anywhere else. I have seen no reports of banks actually closing known US-person accounts due to lack of an SSN after the “grace period” ran out last year.
Per usual, the IRS ignores its own rules and the compliance mafia pumps out the propaganda.
I was in Messenger conversation with someone who was being pressurised into giving her (non-existent) SS number by her bank. I might have accidentally told her my own number with a couple of digits mixed up. I guess if she uses that there’s nothing I can do about it… but it should get the bank off her back. That was in March or so.
Even in a tiny country like Nepal I read they are getting FATCA-ed. Banks are panicked all around the world trying to please US government as I receive a couple of letters from some friends who were told to fill out their information about their US status or any link under perjury. I wonder how US will go after those perjury forms from different countries and is that enforceable in a foreign country other than Canada or
USUK or Australia where US govt can collect easily.Sorry UK not US. Of course they are going to be able to collect from US. That was a typo
Speaking only for Canada, banks are not panicked, they do not seek to verify the answers given by customers, nobody is penalized for perjury, and the US has no ability to collect anything from Canadian citizens (though in theory it could expect assistance collecting certain types of penalties from US expats without Canadian citizenship). UK and Australia have no collection assistance at all, for anyone.
The FATCA situation can be difficult in some countries, but not all.
Just as the IRS is unable to enforce taxation outside the US, they have no ability to enforce a penalty for perjury. The damage (in the form of account restrictions or closures) is done by the banks, not the IRS or the US government.
Looks like we’re going right down the road of the courts. The damage is being done by the banks, not the US gun to their heads. Really?
Yes, really. How else can you explain the fact that banks in Canada manage to thread the needle and comply with FATCA but not harm their customers? Meanwhile, in Europe, banks overreact and severely restrict or even close accounts if they detect the slightest whiff of a US connection. Banks in Europe look very hard for US connections while the banks in Canada hardly look at all.
I’ll answer my own question: Because Euro banks have done the calculation and determined that customers with a US taint are such a small percentage of their total customer base that they’d rather just hunt down and eliminate those customers than risk running afoul of the US government. The US and Canada are so integrated and so many Canadians have some sort of vague US connection that Canadian banks can’t possibly track them all down and can’t afford to eliminate such a large number of customers. Canadian banks go through the basic motions but don’t look very hard.
So sure, the US government is the root cause but it is banks that are doing the real damage.
An additional factor here is that European banks have generally required ID showing place of birth (either national ID card or passport) and kept citizenship information, whereas Canadian banks did not – you could and still can open an account with only a drivers’ license. This makes it easy for European banks to identify US persons, both among current and new customers. Canadian banks kept no information about citizenship or birthplace in their normal customer records, so could not find US persons retroactively. Post-FATCA they don’t seem terribly concerned about it, given that they have not tightened the ID requirements for new accounts. I think it’s a case of their following the letter of the law with very little concern for the outcome.
And also, yes, even for identified US persons, Canadian banks don’t appear to limit services or threaten to close accounts, nor have they yet made any effort to enforce collection of Social Security Numbers (as far as we are aware).
“Yes, really. How else can you explain the fact that banks in Canada manage to thread the needle and comply with FATCA but not harm their customers? Meanwhile, in Europe, banks overreact and severely restrict or even close accounts if they detect the slightest whiff of a US connection. ”
Do you open a bank account in Canada with ID with place of birth as CHICAGO on it?
Want to argue that you never noticed this with the US government?
You can open a bank account with a driver’s license which doesn’t have place of birth.
@Mike.
As FATCA has ramped up over the last number of years, the procedure for opening an account at a Canadian bank has gradually evolved. I last opened a new account in 2016 and at the time “the question” was in the form of: “Are you a tax resident of any other country?” I answered “no”, and that was the end of that line of questioning.
If I had answered “yes” then the next question would have been “which country” and if that country happened to be the US then that’s where a whole bunch of unpleasant interrogation would have been triggered. At this point in time I’m smart enough to not go there.
There are a number of Canadian IDs which are acceptable for account opening, and none of them that I possess list place of birth. They do collect date of birth and SIN (the Canadian equivalent of SSN) for reporting to the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA). So for whatever reason, place of birth doesn’t seem to be of any particular interest to Canadian institutions.
So to directly answer your question: No, I wouldn’t open an account using ID with a US birthplace. Any ID I have that lists birthplace would be an old US ID which I refuse to use anymore. I choose to identify myself as solely Canadian, not a US citizen living in Canada. (As an aside, my birthplace is a city in Texas, Michigan, Ontario, UK, and probably elsewhere. So I could claim a Canadian birthplace, anyway!)
Not sure what you mean with your last question, but if you are accusing the US government of being a PITA, then we are 100% in agreement.
@Mike
Don’t use a piece of ID with a US birthplace on it, obviously. Very simple. You can use a drivers’ license or equivalent instead. Upon opening an account you will be asked a question about foreign and/or US tax residency and/or citizenship – the wording varies from bank to bank – but you are free to answer according to the dictates of your conscience, as nobody cares to check.
“You can open a bank account with a driver’s license which doesn’t have place of birth.”
I don’t really know how you can speak for all other nations, but the account opening procedure in Belgium where I last opened an account required my ID card which contains all pertinent information including place of birth.
“Don’t use a piece of ID with a US birthplace on it, obviously. Very simple.”
Same answer to you, ID card REQUIRED.
What suddenly gives with you lot knowing how you can open accounts in other nations?