W8-W9 Discussion
This thread is for discussion of IRS forms W8 (Certificate of Foreign Status of Beneficial Owner for United States Tax Withholding and Reporting) and W9 (Request for Taxpayer Identification and Certification).
See also general banking issues and other banking issue sub-thread links at Banking Issues.
I am not an accidental American. I was born in the USA and became a French citizen almost 30 years ago. I renounced my American citizenship almost ten years ago.
The problems are not just with Accidental Americans. At this writing there are banks in France which demand I sign American forms – in English – before they are willing to do business with me, even though I am a French and not an American citizen. This is unacceptable.
W-8, or W-9?
In the UK I get asked by banks to sign a W-8; which I don’t object to, because it certifies for the bank the fact that I want to certify: that I’m not a US Person for tax-withholding purposes.
If they asked me to sign a W-9 form I would flourish my expensive CLN at them.
@phyllis and eff
Many people who are no longer American and have a CLN on file object to signing W8 or W9 as they are American forms. A W8 should only need be signed if you have US sourced income. Some banks provide their own non US version of a W8 which I believe is more acceptable. These I believe are only kept on file in the bank for the bank’s protection.
If you are not an American and have no US sourced income, then why should you be made to sign a US form.
Depends on your point of view I suppose. Signing a US form isn’t a problem for me, as long as it’s in my interest to sign it.
@phyllis
Yes, I sign a W8 too, but then I have US sourced income/ pension but I can understand those who have renounced , have no financial ties with the US and think they have at last got the IRS out of their lives only to be faced with yet another US form.
I suppose it depends if you see it as a matter of choice or a matter of coercion.
I don’t feel anyone is “making” me sign a W8. I choose to sign it because I want an account for which that’s one of the conditions.
I certainly wouldn’t sign a W-9.
@phyllis
But where is the choice if you can’t get an account that others with a non American birthplace or stigma can get without having to sign. You are still being discriminated against as it’s only a condition for ex Americans . A CLN should have solved all that for them, unless of course you have US sourced income.
That’s the way it goes. Everyone gets asked about tax residence, domicile, etc, these days. It doesn’t bother me. Different strokes etc.
@Phyllis Henderson
Your argument reminds me of a person who doesn’ t mind if all of his personal information is accessible to everyone. Why not, I’ve got nothing to hide. Okay, til it comes back to bite you in the arse.
Care to explain? What are you afraid might come back and bite you if you open an account and sign a W8 form?
It sounds like unnecessary anxiety to me. To date, I’m unbitten.
@phyllis
Tax residence and domicile are asked of all bank customers whatever their citizenship.
Why should you agree to the banks treating you differently to other citizens of your country?
Our privacy is constantly being chipped away on all fronts, we need to protect it before all is lost. Remember it was the Stasi mantra that professed, “ if you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to worry about”
What’s the privacy issue?
As for a former US citizen who feels like they’re being discriminated against if they’re asked to sign a W8 form – do they object to signing a US form, or do they object to signing any form to confirm that they’re not a US citizen?
@Phyllis
I renounced back in 2012 before FATCA took effect. I had always sent in FBARS . My bank in Switzerland had asked me for proof that I had done this to be allowed to keep my account. I dutifully sent them copies, I then received a letter asking me to sign away my EU/ Swiss rights to bank privacy and agree to them sending my pre and post FATCA bank account details to the US on an ongoing basis, even though I was no longer a US citizen and had demonstrated compliance. I refused citing the fact that I was a Swiss and EU citizen and therefore protected under EU law. They backed down.
I later discovered that Swiss banks could lessen their fines (determined by their US agreement) if they obtained information on their pre and post US customers. They were protecting themselves.
You are only British and unless you have US sourced income you should be protected from signing a W8 US generated form.
We have few remaining rights and I believe they are worth defending however small or they will slowly be whittled away. It is of course your choice.
@Phyllis
Your cln is your proof. You don’t need to sign another US form.
But of course that’s your choice.
I don’t want to be protected from revealing that I’m no longer a US citizen thanks. That’s why I paid a lot of money to renounce – to be able to show banks I’m no longer a US citizen and be able to open a bank account the same as before FATCA.
Anyway, this seems to come down to what I said before – different points of view. That’s life.
@phyllis
I think its the fact that it is another US IRS form that people object to. It is surprising how soon the banks come up with their own to keep on file which seems to be more palatable .
Anyhow enjoy your well won freedom.
I changed from a bank the wanted me to sign a W8 to one that had their own form.
Why?
I refuse to accept the German government being forced by the US to make an exception to the laws requiring all business to consumer forms to be available in the German language. This is my right as a German citizen that is being extraterritorially infringed upon.
I refuse to accept the statement from the bank that it will not send it to the US even by accident (just needs the investment section to screw up and think I have a US investment)
I refuse to be forced to sign any US document as a matter of principle.
I refuse to acknowledge the any possible authority the US may think it has over me.
I refuse the US, period.
Yes, same here and presumably in most countries – if you don’t like what one bank offers, you can look for one that suits you better.
“I refuse to accept the German government being forced by the US to make an exception to the laws requiring all business to consumer forms to be available in the German language. This is my right as a German citizen that is being extraterritorially infringed upon.”
The UK IGA doesn’t state that a W-8 is required.
“an IRS Form W-8 or similar agreed form” is what it says in the UK agreement.
Here, also, some banks use the W-8 and some use their own form so they can incorporate CRS self-certification and FATCA self-certification into the same form. I suppose if an accountholder subsequently started buying US shares the bank would at that point ask for a W-8 form.
Not looking up quotes as I am in the hospital:
The IGA says an own form MAY be used if certain information is included, but the W8 MUST be acceptable.
-> The German FATCA implemention says a bank MAY use an own form with the required information but MAY a W8.
=> General German law (BGB) says the forms MUST be available in German (more: I have a right to a German version).
Ergo: the US forced the German to deny me a right.
I also argued this with my bank because the BGB does not give an exception and the FATCA law does not explicitly override the BGB (was more or less copy & paste of the IGA). They broke down and made me a German translation, but wanted me to fill out and sign the original IRS form. I told them that was not good enough and what they could do the both the form and the translation (not for young ears), then took my business elsewhere. Check a box or two, copy the CLN, done.
I daresay the bank was as glad to see the back of you as you were to see the back of the bank. 🙂 An English-speaking former American who not only refuses to sign a form because it’s in English, but then when a translation is offered they refuse to sign because it’s American!
Anyway, it sounds like you found another bank, so all’s well that ends well. Sorry for your illness.
I refused to sign it because it was my right to have a German version.
I did not refuse to sign the translation, because it was just that: a word-for-word on a separate piece of paper. What I refused the second time was to sane the same form I got the first time, which was still English.
That I speak English is unimportant. It’s a matter of principle: what if I was an “accidental” (I hate how that word is misused) and did not speak English. Could I confirm that the document I was putting my signature on was exactly the same?
When it comes down to the line there is a document with my signature that can be used against me and a unofficial document without a signature that I based my answers on: which do you think will hold up in a court of law?
How could a W-8 form be used against you?
Out
The W-8 form is the one for individuals who are not US Persons. To get the treaty rate of withholding on US source income – not the US citizen rate.