We back filed 5 full years after renouncing. ( so called quiet disclosure). This was not the accountant’s first choice. She advised the old streamlined process.
It took 5 years and some gymnastics to get to the point of owing nothing which we did before renouncing. Haven’t heard a dicky bird. My advice, if you have no US ties, is not to enter the system.
As I’ve posted before, I renounced without ever entering the US tax system. Eighteen months later, I have yet to hear anything from the IRS, and I don’t expect to.
Thanks guys. Not that I disagree with the likelihood of being approached by the IRS after renouncing w/o filing being extremely low, but regarding your latest comment there BirdPerson: as the due date for the final forms after renouncing is the due date for the following tax year – possibly with extensions – it would not really make sense for the IRS to do anything at all until at least a few years after the renunciation anyways. I wouldn’t expect to hear anything at all either – ever, but still, to bring some balance into this.
@Scandiman.
As you seem to still be in the information gathering stage, here is some interesting reading on the subject of late filed Form 8854s from Phil Hodgen’s website:
Not filing the form at all would be, of course, a sub-class of filing it late because one could always change their mind and file it, even if it winds up being years late. There is lots more on the subject of expatriation on Hodgen’s site.
It seems clear from many sources that tax treaties with collection assistance provisions are only in place between US and Canada, Denmark, France, Netherlands and Sweden.
However, Article 11 in the OECD convention state this:
“At the request of the applicant State, the requested State shall, subject to the provisions of Articles 14 and 15, take the necessary steps to recover tax claims of the first-mentioned State as if they were its own tax claims.”
Does this override the tax treaties (and also erode the revenue rule), thereby making citizens of any country that has ratified the agreement subject to collection from abroad (= US)?
No, I believe that would only apply if that person was not a citizen of the resident State at that period in time covered by the tax claim. This provision would only apply in those 5 countries.
65 yrs old.living in Canada since I was 6. I heard dual citizens can get some Covid relief funds if I fill out my 2019 Taxs, which I have here already. I’M wondering how to go about getting money step by step. Do I copy my taxs since 16 and attach that on form 1054 or is there a different approach?
@Robin: Check this page. Don’t be intimidated by the “US government authorized use” page; just click OK. And don’t be scared of having to enter your name and partial address.
Your question is a bit confusing. Have you never filed US taxes before? Do you have a Social Security Number?
While it’s true that as a US citizen you would be entitled to $1800 (soon rising to $3200) in stimulus benefit, unless you have a relatively high income, be aware that you likely would not see that money very quickly. Your 2020 return would need to be processed and a refund issued, with a physical cheque mailed unless you’ve set up a US account for direct deposit (which is not difficult to do online).
Once upon a time I thought I understood the criteria for receiving those stimulus cheques and concluded I didn’t qualify. (Haven’t filed for years, self-relinquished, no CLN, informed SSA of loss of US citizenship on one of their questionaires, but receive a minimal SS benefit via direct deposit.)
So I didn’t apply and didn’t give it a second thought. A couple of months ago a $1200 cheque appeared in my mailbox and yesterday there was a second for $600. All with no explanation and no correspondence. Go figure.
I think their system is broken.
@maz
Congrats. I figured you might receive a nice surprise in the mail one day.
They sent them to all Social Security recipients regardless of citizenship, as far as I can tell. (Including one genial Austrian pensioner who worked for a few years as waiter in the US back in the 1960s, plus a bonus cheque for his missus.)
Don’t spend it all at once.
@maz
If you are receiving a ssa1099 form,you are considered as a US citzen by the SSA.If not,you should be receiving a ssa1042s form,as far as I see.
As for the check received,please look the gift horse in the mouth,besides the ethicality, there just might be a reckoning someday and a branding,justifiably, of that person as a US citzen even if he/she is self-certified.
I don’t think “self-certified” or “self-relinquishment” really count for much as far as the US government is concerned. Which, as it turns out, is a good thing when it comes to free money appearing in the mailbox.
@ R.R.
I think they send me SSA1099. Thanks for the tip; I’ll be sure to pay attention this year. If so, that means that they asked if I had lost US citizenship on their annual questionaire and then for whatever reason proceeded to ignore my honest response.
As for whether accepting COVID stimulus cheques is ethical the US threw ethical behavior out the window a long time ago when they attacked expats with CBT and FATCA. I regard the money as just compensation for the ongoing pain and suffering. Maybe I’ll do some cross-border shopping online or buy a US stock with some of it. Not losing any sleep.
@R.H.
I expect you are right. As far as the US government is concerned, you either have a CLN or you don’t. Period, full stop. But at least I’m well on the way to a fully US government funded CLN if at some point I decide I need one, lol.
Other than my little SS benefit, I have zero interaction with the rest of the US government. I doubt they have formed any opinion about me whatsoever and that’s fine with me. The SSA seems to act independently and is a reasonably user friendly operation.
Free renunciations, this year only! Get ‘em while they last.
My husband and I received the first cheque in the mail last June or July. But I checked the site that I listed above to see the status of the recent $600 payment, and it stated that there is no information because we may not be qualified to receive it. I don’t know what made the difference this time. We have been dutiful but resentful filers of US tax forms every year, and financially we certainly qualify for the corona relief payments.
Of course this is a mild disappointment, since I too regard these payments as a token reimbursement for the countless bottles of whiskey and vodka I’ve consumed as a direct consequence of FATCA and all the US government’s other transgressions against expats. On the other hand, I won’t cry if we don’t receive it. On a basic moral level, they really shouldn’t be sending such payments to people like us, who are by no means poor and have also received financial support from our country of residence.
It does seem that the SSA and the IRS act independently and that is very fortunate. The easiest way to clear up the 1099/1042s issue would be to call/write the SSA and request a 1042s and what may be needed to get one. As for myself,I’d dressup the cheques and gold- frame them as a blade of honor and a lifetime reminder rather than spending it as part of a long forgotten holiday expense.
But then again ,I don’t have any cheques or a choice .
.
Frame the signed letter from Trump that came with the first cheque, but spend the money.
In theory, I guess you could argue stimulating Canada’s economy would ultimately also benefit the US economy.
We need to take good look in mirror when talking about the foolish US covid financial aid here . We,in Canada, are doing much the same,if not worse, by having given 15 – 17 year olds who live at home and earn barely $5000 year a free ride of $ 2000 per month for at least 7months.Alas,many other gifts along the way. Simon Fraser pointed that a while ago.
But again,that’s another story…..Wouldn’t be the least surprised to hear that we have squandered more money per capita than the US ,even including their freebies.
There will be a price to pay
are doing much the same by having given 15 – 17 year olds who live at home and earn barely $5000 year a free ride of $ 2000 per month for at least 7months.Alas,not to mention many other giveaways along the way.
But again,that’s another story…..Wouldn’t be the least surprised to hear, we have squandered more money per capita than the US even including their freebies.
I think subsidized renunciation is a terrific idea. Basically it’s giving the money straight back to the American people. Who could object to that?
We back filed 5 full years after renouncing. ( so called quiet disclosure). This was not the accountant’s first choice. She advised the old streamlined process.
It took 5 years and some gymnastics to get to the point of owing nothing which we did before renouncing. Haven’t heard a dicky bird. My advice, if you have no US ties, is not to enter the system.
As I’ve posted before, I renounced without ever entering the US tax system. Eighteen months later, I have yet to hear anything from the IRS, and I don’t expect to.
Thanks guys. Not that I disagree with the likelihood of being approached by the IRS after renouncing w/o filing being extremely low, but regarding your latest comment there BirdPerson: as the due date for the final forms after renouncing is the due date for the following tax year – possibly with extensions – it would not really make sense for the IRS to do anything at all until at least a few years after the renunciation anyways. I wouldn’t expect to hear anything at all either – ever, but still, to bring some balance into this.
@Scandiman.
As you seem to still be in the information gathering stage, here is some interesting reading on the subject of late filed Form 8854s from Phil Hodgen’s website:
https://hodgen.com/filing-form-8854-late/
Not filing the form at all would be, of course, a sub-class of filing it late because one could always change their mind and file it, even if it winds up being years late. There is lots more on the subject of expatriation on Hodgen’s site.
It seems clear from many sources that tax treaties with collection assistance provisions are only in place between US and Canada, Denmark, France, Netherlands and Sweden.
However, Article 11 in the OECD convention state this:
“At the request of the applicant State, the requested State shall, subject to the provisions of Articles 14 and 15, take the necessary steps to recover tax claims of the first-mentioned State as if they were its own tax claims.”
http://www.oecd.org/tax/exchange-of-tax-information/ENG-Amended-Convention.pdf
Does this override the tax treaties (and also erode the revenue rule), thereby making citizens of any country that has ratified the agreement subject to collection from abroad (= US)?
No, I believe that would only apply if that person was not a citizen of the resident State at that period in time covered by the tax claim. This provision would only apply in those 5 countries.
65 yrs old.living in Canada since I was 6. I heard dual citizens can get some Covid relief funds if I fill out my 2019 Taxs, which I have here already. I’M wondering how to go about getting money step by step. Do I copy my taxs since 16 and attach that on form 1054 or is there a different approach?
@Robin: Check this page. Don’t be intimidated by the “US government authorized use” page; just click OK. And don’t be scared of having to enter your name and partial address.
https://www.irs.gov/coronavirus/get-my-payment
@Robin
Your question is a bit confusing. Have you never filed US taxes before? Do you have a Social Security Number?
While it’s true that as a US citizen you would be entitled to $1800 (soon rising to $3200) in stimulus benefit, unless you have a relatively high income, be aware that you likely would not see that money very quickly. Your 2020 return would need to be processed and a refund issued, with a physical cheque mailed unless you’ve set up a US account for direct deposit (which is not difficult to do online).
Once upon a time I thought I understood the criteria for receiving those stimulus cheques and concluded I didn’t qualify. (Haven’t filed for years, self-relinquished, no CLN, informed SSA of loss of US citizenship on one of their questionaires, but receive a minimal SS benefit via direct deposit.)
So I didn’t apply and didn’t give it a second thought. A couple of months ago a $1200 cheque appeared in my mailbox and yesterday there was a second for $600. All with no explanation and no correspondence. Go figure.
I think their system is broken.
@maz
Congrats. I figured you might receive a nice surprise in the mail one day.
They sent them to all Social Security recipients regardless of citizenship, as far as I can tell. (Including one genial Austrian pensioner who worked for a few years as waiter in the US back in the 1960s, plus a bonus cheque for his missus.)
Don’t spend it all at once.
@maz
If you are receiving a ssa1099 form,you are considered as a US citzen by the SSA.If not,you should be receiving a ssa1042s form,as far as I see.
As for the check received,please look the gift horse in the mouth,besides the ethicality, there just might be a reckoning someday and a branding,justifiably, of that person as a US citzen even if he/she is self-certified.
I don’t think “self-certified” or “self-relinquishment” really count for much as far as the US government is concerned. Which, as it turns out, is a good thing when it comes to free money appearing in the mailbox.
@ R.R.
I think they send me SSA1099. Thanks for the tip; I’ll be sure to pay attention this year. If so, that means that they asked if I had lost US citizenship on their annual questionaire and then for whatever reason proceeded to ignore my honest response.
As for whether accepting COVID stimulus cheques is ethical the US threw ethical behavior out the window a long time ago when they attacked expats with CBT and FATCA. I regard the money as just compensation for the ongoing pain and suffering. Maybe I’ll do some cross-border shopping online or buy a US stock with some of it. Not losing any sleep.
@R.H.
I expect you are right. As far as the US government is concerned, you either have a CLN or you don’t. Period, full stop. But at least I’m well on the way to a fully US government funded CLN if at some point I decide I need one, lol.
Other than my little SS benefit, I have zero interaction with the rest of the US government. I doubt they have formed any opinion about me whatsoever and that’s fine with me. The SSA seems to act independently and is a reasonably user friendly operation.
Free renunciations, this year only! Get ‘em while they last.
My husband and I received the first cheque in the mail last June or July. But I checked the site that I listed above to see the status of the recent $600 payment, and it stated that there is no information because we may not be qualified to receive it. I don’t know what made the difference this time. We have been dutiful but resentful filers of US tax forms every year, and financially we certainly qualify for the corona relief payments.
Of course this is a mild disappointment, since I too regard these payments as a token reimbursement for the countless bottles of whiskey and vodka I’ve consumed as a direct consequence of FATCA and all the US government’s other transgressions against expats. On the other hand, I won’t cry if we don’t receive it. On a basic moral level, they really shouldn’t be sending such payments to people like us, who are by no means poor and have also received financial support from our country of residence.
It does seem that the SSA and the IRS act independently and that is very fortunate. The easiest way to clear up the 1099/1042s issue would be to call/write the SSA and request a 1042s and what may be needed to get one. As for myself,I’d dressup the cheques and gold- frame them as a blade of honor and a lifetime reminder rather than spending it as part of a long forgotten holiday expense.
But then again ,I don’t have any cheques or a choice .
.
Frame the signed letter from Trump that came with the first cheque, but spend the money.
In theory, I guess you could argue stimulating Canada’s economy would ultimately also benefit the US economy.
We need to take good look in mirror when talking about the foolish US covid financial aid here . We,in Canada, are doing much the same,if not worse, by having given 15 – 17 year olds who live at home and earn barely $5000 year a free ride of $ 2000 per month for at least 7months.Alas,many other gifts along the way. Simon Fraser pointed that a while ago.
But again,that’s another story…..Wouldn’t be the least surprised to hear that we have squandered more money per capita than the US ,even including their freebies.
There will be a price to pay
are doing much the same by having given 15 – 17 year olds who live at home and earn barely $5000 year a free ride of $ 2000 per month for at least 7months.Alas,not to mention many other giveaways along the way.
But again,that’s another story…..Wouldn’t be the least surprised to hear, we have squandered more money per capita than the US even including their freebies.
I think subsidized renunciation is a terrific idea. Basically it’s giving the money straight back to the American people. Who could object to that?