Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
Participants will need to provide their e-mail address (real or fake) and an alias. The only written rule is that participants must use a same alias each time they post (and not “anonymous” or derivatives thereof).
Bear in mind that any responses that you get from participants is peer-to-peer help, and it is not intended as a replacement for professional advice. Also, the Isaac Brock Society provides this disclaimer: neither the Society nor any of its members are professionals. We offer our advice here only in friendship and we recommend that our readers seek professional advice if they need it.
If you wish to receive an e-mail notification of comments, check the box to that effect when making your first comment.
NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Bodhi. Congratulations. You’re all set. Fill in part IV section A questions 1-6. Check what I said earlier about the right answers. Especially question 4—-the answer is yes.
You don’t need to fill in part V. Then you’re done. Lucky you!
@Molly
Yes, if your relinquishing act of working for a Crown corporation (CBC) prior to 2004 is accepted and a CLN is issued, you would not have to file five years of U.S. tax returns! No Form 8854, nothing.
It’s a big deal. This is why people who are told in their consulate interview that they have no relinquishment case hold their ground and (politely) insist that their file be sent to D.C. Some (not all) have been approved after the consul told them it would not be.
Do you mind saying what consulate location you would be going to?
I agree with the Duke, Bodhi. I don’t think you need worry about having to invoke the Fifth Amendment for yourself, one of the benefits of the “accidental American” with not a lot of other choices. File that 8854 and be done — you won’t be a “covered expatriate”.
@ George
What, you expect these overworked IRS folks to write you a letter in reply and say “good job”? Only the Cdn tax folks are that nice…..!
To be more serious, form nation gets 2 years to audit an 8854; if you don’t hear from them in 2 yrs, you are free.
@ Stressed –
I’ve got my renunciation appointment for mid-April (Toronto consulate). Given that I (like you) probably won’t get my CLN until well after July 1, I asked if the consulate would have an “Interim document” that they could individualize and notarize indicating that I have gone through the renunciation process and am awaiting a CLN from the State Dept. They said they have such a form that they can give to me at my appointment so probably you should be able to get one too to show to your bank, asking them to hold off on “reporting” you.
@Molly, yes no filing necessary as WhatAmI says. Read this:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
If you can get your relinquishment approved then basically you’re done. Make your case as strong as you can with copies of employment contracts, any oaths of alligence that you might have taken for your job, etc, to prove that you did it in the knowledge that you’d lose your American citizenship.
As LM says in his posts, ask your consulate if they have an interim document they can prepare for you to show your bank if necessary while you wait for your CLN to arrive.
@Watcher
Thank you this info “File a 1040nr with an attached 1040 as a ‘statement’ of your worldwide income for the part of the year you were still a citizen. The non-resident part can of course be all-zeroes if you have no US source income. Split year returns are a bit fiddly, but are described (very loosely, after all this is the IRS) here and here.”
So since I am now nonresident alien with no US source income at all I file: 1. A 1040 R filled with zeros from the date of renunciation to Dec.31,2013 and 2. A 1040 with info from Jan.1,2013 up to the date I renounced. NEXT QUESTION what about the 2555EZ which is used for the FEIE? Is that filed to attain the FEIE for Jan.1-up to renunciation? And what do I do with the exemptiopn amount when I only report income for approx. half of 2013? Divide the FEIE by the number of month I was still USC? Or just use the yearly amount? Hope someone who has done this before me can advise!
@WhatAmI @MediaFleacesteeler…..Wow, I had no idea. Thank you SO much for this feedback! I will try not to get my hopes up too much, but I will start gathering as much documentation as I can and may also book one hour with a lawyer to find out what else I can do to strengthen my case. I’ll keep everyone here posted along the way. I would be visiting the consulate in Calgary.
Thank you also to everyone who has posted links on here for me to read regarding this. I haven’t had a chance to look through everything yet, but I will. I appreciate everyone on here so much!!!
@ LM, thankfully I don’t have enough money for them to report me anyways! I have a receipt from consulate though just in case …
I just wanted to relate to you all my experience with the renunciation of my US Citizenship. I don’t know how to update the Consular Report so here it is:
i contacted the US Consulate in Marseille on 1 Feb requesting an interview to renounce my US citizenship. On 3 Feb I received a reply that had a several attachments. The person at the consulate told they needed to be filled in and soft copies sent to the consulate along with a copy of my US passport, French passport, birth certificate and money order for 338€. I also included a letter explaining why I wanted to renouce. Basically I had not lived nor worked in the US for almost 30 years and had no intention of going back so I saw no point in keeping my US citizenship. On the day of my interview I would have to supply the originals.
I filled in everything, got the money order and sent it all to the US Consulate in Marseille. On 25 Feb I received an email telling me that my documents had been received and an interview had been scheduled for 7 March. I went to there at 10am, went thru security and arrived in large room. I was the only one there. I was greeted by someone to whom I gave the originals then waited for the consul. She arrived about 30 minutes or so later. She apologized for being late but she explained that she had a last minute meeting. We spoke for a few minutes. I asked her if I should address her as “Madame La Consule” but she said that was not necessary. I could just call her by her first name.
She read me the oath and I replied “I do” and that was that. I also asked her if I could have a photocopy of the renunciation document. She said no problem. She also informed me that it usually took from 2-3 months to process but it could take longer as there was a backlog at the State Dept. I said no problem. We shook hands and I left. From start to finish it took about 45 min or so.
When I got back home I sent her an email thanking her for her politeness, her respect for my decision and total lack of judegment. She never replied back but that did not surprise me.
On 17 March I got an email telling me my CLN was available! 10 days! The only problem was that I had provided them with the wrong type of envelope to mail me the document. As the consulate is not too far from where I am living I replied that I would go there to pick it up.
i have no idea what “inspired” the person who processed my renunciation to do it so quickly but I guess the “gods” of the State Dept were on my side.
What a wonderful and positive experience and timely receipt of your CLN. Thanks for sharing, astonished. Would you have been able to claim relinquishment from long ago and perhaps not subject to the tax filings? At any rate, you chose renunciation, paid your fee and have the desired result. Your experience is the way it should be.
@ Astonished,
Super to read of your experience. Sounds like they’re handling things really well at Marseilles, with efficiency and positive attitude. That is terrific that your CLN took 10 days! Thanks for reporting your experience. I’ll add it to the Consulate Report Directory this week. I’m glad to hear all went very well – and very fast — for you!
@Astonished, congratulations! 10 days for a CLN – is that a new record? It must be pretty close to it, if it’s not.
@Astonished, Wow, 10 days! Here in Canada we’re lucky if it comes in 10 weeks! In a month I’ll be able to report on my renunciation “oath-taking” appointment; I hope it goes just as smoothly. Thanks for sharing.
@astonished – That’s great! Nice to hear some good news for a change. Thanks for sharing.
10 days! I’m starting to wonder if France can do them in 10 days why is Canada taking so long!
Congratulations on a smooth and quick process!
Wow! 10 days that is fantastic!! Congratulations!!
@astonished
Congratulations! I am in another EU country and still waiting 8 months after renouncing!
I am unable to explain why it took only a matter of days, nor do I wish to know why. As I said in my post the “gods” of the US State Dept were looking down on me favorably as all renouncements go thru the same process as far as I know. I can only chalk it up to “good luck”.
@Astonished, of course we’ll never know, but wonder if your thoughtful note to the consul might have made the difference. You are indeed very fortunate to now have peace of mind and that it will now just be a case of filing your final paperwork next year. Best wishes for you!! 🙂
Duke of Devron, calgary411, WhatAmI, et all: Your words of wisdom have been invaluable to me. My question now is: Because I meet the “exception of dual-citizens” (born in Canada, lived here all my life, paid Canadian taxes) is Part IV question 1. (tax liability test) or question 2. (net worth test) not applicable to me. The IRS’ Internal Revenue Bulletin: 2009-45 Guidance for Expatriates Under Section 877A under SECTION 2. INDIVIDUALS COVERED, A. Definitions says, “…..section 877A(g)(1)(B) provides that an expatriate will not be treated as meeting the tax liability test or the net worth test of section 877(a)(2)(A) or (B) if –
(1) the expatriate became at birth a U.S. citizen of another country and, as of the expatriation date, continues to be a citizen of, and is taxed as a resident of, such other country, and has been a U.S. resident for not more than 10 taxable years during the 15 taxable year period ending with the taxable year during which the expatriation date occurs, …..”
Section 877 (a)(2)(A) and (B) says: “(A) the average annual net income tax (as defined in section 38 (c)(1) of such individual for the periods of 5 taxable years ending before the date of loss of United States citizenship is greater than $124,000,
(B) the net worth of the individual as of such date.”
If you follow my logic: 877(a)(2)(A) and (B) are really questions 1 & 2 in Part IV and therefore not applicable to me because I was a dual citizen at birth, and remain a Canadian citizen, paid all taxes in Canada at my expatriation date.
I will fill in questions 3 to 6 (thank you for pointing out the “yes” answer to question 4), sign it, date it, and mail it.
On the flip side, I have all zeros to question 1. and my net worth is under $2 million U.S for question 2. So should I answer both questions anyways? Do I really want to give the IRS my net worth? What if they change the rules again and lower the $2 million threshold, am I subject to an exit tax? As you can see I’m a worry wart. Which way should I go?
Bodhi,
Accidental Americans, if a person was born a dual citizen they are exempt from exit tax, even if their net worth is over 2 million. Criteria are: if born a dual, are taxed in your home country, were a resident of the US for not more than 10 years during the 15 years preceding renunciation. Page 3, form 8854 instructions. http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i8854.pdf
No, I wouldn’t give my net worth to the IRS — why would you want to do that? (Don’t worry about them changing the rules and lowering $2 million threshold. Threshold, whatever amount, won’t apply to you, a dual citizen at birth. Besides, what applies later SHOULD NOT APPLY TO YOU — YOU WILL BE OUT / DONE / FINI.
As advised by kalc, I would fill in Part IV as:
In the spring of 2015 you fill in a 1040 for 2014. Put down a reasonable amount for your income for 77 days. Prorate any FTCs in the ratio 77/365. You shouldn’t owe any taxes if you haven’t had to pay in the past. Remember, you only have to make a best effort. It is unlikely they will question it. If they do, so what? You do not have to submit a 1040NR for the balance of the year unless you have US source income for which a non USC would file.
If you have been submitting fbars, then do it one more time.
For you, the 8854 is really easy. Fill in part I. Go to part IV
line 1 “not applicable”
line 2 “not applicable”
line 3 yes
line 4 yes- note the negative in the question which naturally makes it less comprehensible.
line 5 no
line 6 yes. Sign your name and you are free.
Pingback: The Isaac Brock Society
Pingback: Relinquishment of US Citizenship by Persons-Born-Dual or who Naturalised in a Foreign Country as a Minor | Maple Sandbox
So, who here doesn’t know the Guess Who’s big hit, “American Woman”?
I’ve been listening to that song for over 40 years but had never realized what it was about until I read Randy Bachman’s Vinyl Tap Stories. The woman in the song is not some chick who done Burton wrong, but the Statue of Liberty.
>b>
American woman, get away from me
American woman, mama let me be
Don’t come knockin’ around my door
Don’t wanna see your shadow no more
I’m gonna leave you, woman
Goodbye, American woman
Here is Randy’s story. It seems our woes are not new: