Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@MedeaFleecestealer: I agree! I have an appointment to obtain a CLN. I have lived in Canada for over 20 years and this is home to me. As an aside,I have filed W-8BEN forms with my bank for years (since 2001 when I became Canadian).
For thoseof us who haven’t made up our minds about getting a CLN, it might be worth waiting for CRA’s guidelines. The tens of thousands of ex-Amedican citizens who became Canadian citizens before1986 might not need a CLN for their financial institutions if CRA’s implementation guidelines clear up the following alternative mentionned in the IGA:
“A copy of the Account Holder’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality of the United States or a reasonable explanation of… the reason the Account Holder does not have such a certificate despite relinquishing U.S. citizenship.”
Already, the CRA’s FAQ on the IGA has a question on the subject:
“17. Does the Agreement require Canadian financial institutions to report to the CRA on any individuals who were told that they relinquished their U.S. citizenship when they became Canadian citizens?
The Agreement does not require Canadian financial institutions to report on any individuals who have relinquished their U.S. citizenship and are not residents of the U.S.
Individuals who have relinquished their U.S. citizenship may be asked by their financial institution for documentation to this effect.”
In the comments I submitted to the Department of Finance Website, I remarked that Canadian documentation, that one had become a citizen at a time when the Americas told you you had relinquished, but didn’t provide you with a CLN, should be sufficient.This could be a Canadian certificate of citizenship with perhaps an affidavit that one had done nothing to maintain US citizenship. I added that getting a CLN is not going to be practical or possible if you’re 85 years old and in a nursing home far from a consulate. From the FAQ, it’s obvious they know about the problem.
@Petit Suisse,
I wonder, if an accidental (with Canadian born parents thus dual from birth), could sneak through the cracks this way, i.e. present their citizenship card, and say they relinquished….whose to know their parents were born in Canada, and not USA.
It seems ridiculous though, that someone with Canadian born parents would have a more difficult time shaking of USA clinging nationality, than someone with American born parents…just more absurdity of CBT.
@ Benedict Arnold be me
Thanks, that is a relief. I guess we will all have to wait and then compare notes RE how each bank approaches this after July 1.
BTW, everyone, I wrote to the Toronto Consulate and asked if they would have an interim document that they could give me on April 15 (renunciation day for me), ostensibly so I could still get into the US on my Cdn passport (with US birthplace) prior to getting my CLN. They responded that they had such a form that they would individualize for me and notarize while at my appointment. Getting this “interim” document, for me, will be used as much for keeping the banks at bay as traveling into the US (tho Step-mom is almost 94 and frail….). Probably this is available at all consulates. If anyone is interested, I can copy the wording once received.
@ Petit Suisse,
Thanks for this. I won’t be getting my hopes up too high, but I’ve bookmarked the CRA FAQ and will be keeping an eye on new developments here and elsewhere. My mom is older with health issues and it would be good if I didn’t have to shuttle her down to Calgary to essentially rehash something that was dealt with and put behind her years ago. It isn’t even the trip so much as the stress. She has enough to worry about.
@All, sorry, but don’t count on that in any way. Why? Because simply getting Canadian citizenship DOESN’T prove that you gave up your American one, even if that was the law at the time. A CLN is ultimately what the banks are going to want to see from you, not your Canadian citizenship certificate. If Canadian banks behave like the Swiss ones, nothing else but a CLN will do.
@Rev Susi (March 7, 2014 at 5:51 pm)
HSBC staff at my local branch in the UK were confused by (but looked at and photocopied) my CLN – when I showed it to them in early 2013. They provided no explanation or reassurance. Not a single member of staff at any other of the few UK-based financial institutions that I have spoken with over recent years has had the foggiest idea about or remotest interest in FATCA, US renunciation or CLNs. I have, however, taken care to write “UK only” next to any citizenship questions on any recent account application forms.
@ King
Yes, the local people in my branch wouldn’t know, but I phoned First Direct on another matter, and then, since I had them on the line, asked whether they had my birthplace on file. I got transferred to another unit eventually, and they apparently were working on the FATCA implementation question, and for both HSBC and FD. So the info hadn’t filtered down even to the normal customer service call centre, let alone the local bank.
I have asked at my local branch about this several times with the last one being in July of this year. All I got was dear in the head lights looks. No one working there seemed to know anything about it. I asked for our main financial advisor there to give us a call. She was rather short with me but, did know some vague thing about it. I told her at that time that I was about to give up my U.S. citizenship and gave her the date of my relinquishment. She gave me no reassurances at all.
I relinquished Sept. 26th and am still waiting on my CLN. I wrote to State this week and was told at that time in an email that I was to “act in every way as if I was still U.S. citizen until the lawyers at State were done looking at my case” I was also told they had hundreds of “these” to go through and that the wait time is now nine months to one year. In September I was told four to six months. March 26th will be the six months and I’ll be very surprised if I have it by then. I’m done all my other paperwork including 8854 and am just waiting.
The problem here for a lot of people with these long wait times for CLN’s is that starting July 1st, 2014 banks will be going through looking for “U.S. indicia” If you don’t have CLN by then even though you relinquished or renounced you could still have all your bank data “shared” despite the fact that you have gone through all this lengthy, expensive and onerous process to no longer be considered a “U.S. person”
As it is already taking so long to get CLN’s I personally think if you are concerned about this situation to the point that you just want to be out of the mess, your family can’t afford it or you simply want your bank data not shared then maybe it’s best to get started on the process for a CLN. By this time next year I could see the wait times doubled from what they are now.
@AtticusinCanada, I am also waiting for my CLN, since Sept.19th, I also have all my paper work ready to go (8854) I am going to mail it soon I think, I don’t know what will happen if my CLN is not approved, but I don’t want to be considered Covered either. It is a tricky situation, very aggravating.
atticus and saddened,
U.S. Citizens and Resident Aliens Abroad – Extensions of Time to File
PLUS
When to file Form 8854
@Calgary411, Thank you very much!
@MedeaFleecestealer
The situation in Canada is a it different for two reasons at least:
1.The huge number of people involved that the banks could lose as customers by pissing them off ( it looks like a lot of our credit unions will qualify as “local client base”…some as “local banks”, not the same thing).
2. Canada has never been on US radar as a major player in tax evasion.
Putting that question about old relinquishers in the CRA FAQ seems to i dicate theyhave something in mind.
However, I don’t mean to suggest that getting a CLN is a bad idea, since a lot of people may need it to cross the border for professional or family reasons, or to protect property or investments in the States. But non-travelling Canadian citizens of advanced age with low bank balances may not need one.
@ AtticusinCanada
As of July 1 the banks are going to START the FATCA process. That doesn’t mean they are going to get to your files immediately. And even if you think they will, it seems to me that if a bank wants your business they would be willing to hear from you about the fact that your CLN is pending and would they not just wait a while?
For those who have recently renounced or are planning to in the next few months, the Toronto Consulate emailed me that they had an “interim renunciation statement” in their files that they could provide for me in mid-April when my renunciation appointment is set; they would individualize it (not just give me a printed form) and notarize it. I told them I wanted this in case my step-mom died in the next few months (she’s almost 94) but I also wanted it to show to my FFIs as I’m sure my CLN won’t arrive before July 1. If my bank (that I’ve been with for over 35 years) is not willing to wait for my official CLN, I’m sorry but I’ll be out of there with major noise!
@all
RE: final 1040 info
Thank you for the link to info on 8854. I will soon be doing my final 1040 filing and have a question regarding the standard exemption on the 1040. What do I do having renounced in July 2013 and filing for 7 months as a US person in 2013? I assume I just file as usual since I have no US income at all and my obligations to report foreign earned income cease as of the date of renounciation. My total yearly income is below the FEIE limit, and I have never owed tax to the US. I have not yet received the CLN.
Does anyone know exactly what personal information the banks keep on us? I asked my bank if they had my place of birth and they replied no. They may not have it stored as data, but is it possible they keep copies of ID documents we may have presented when we opened the account such as a passport? If so, their review might pick it up.
I’ve emailed my bank rep to find out; I’ll pass it along when I get an answer. But it may be a different practice depending on the bank.
I’m pursuing relinquishment, but even still, I don’t want any accidents that will send my bank data south. I have absolutely no confidence in how safe it will be.
Here’s some information on opening bank accounts, this comment on: http://maplesandbox.ca/2014/fatca-information-from-cra/comment-page-3/#comment-13509, including:
GOC, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada, Your Rights and Responsibilities:
http://www.fcac-acfc.gc.ca/eng/resources/publications/yourRights/Pages/OPENINGA-Ouvertur.aspx still says:
What identification (I.D.) do you need?
There are different combinations of ID you can use. You have three choices.
Choice 1—Show two pieces of ID from List A:
List A
Canadian driver’s license
Current Canadian passport
Birth certificate issued in Canada
Social Insurance Number (SIN) card
Old Age Security card with your Social Insurance Number (SIN) on it
Certificate of Indian Status
provincial or territorial health insurance card that can be used as identification under provincial or territorial law
Certificate of Canadian Citizenship or Certification of Naturalization
Permanent Resident card or a Citizenship and Immigration Canada form IMM 1000, IMM 1442, or IMM 5292
Document or card, with your picture and signature on it, issued by one of the following authorities:
Insurance Corporation of British Columbia
Alberta Registries
Saskatchewan Government Insurance
Department of Service Nova Scotia and Municipal Relations
Department of Transportation and Infrastructure of the province of Prince Edward Island
Service New Brunswick
Service NL of the province of Newfoundland and Labrador
Department of Transportation of North West Territories
Department of Community Government and Transportation of Nunavut
If you don’t have two pieces of ID from List A above, you can:
Choice 2—Show one piece of ID from List A and one piece of ID from List B, below:
List B
Employee ID card with your picture on it and issued by an employer that is well known in the community
Debit card or bank card with your name and signature on it
Canadian credit card with your name and signature on it
Client card from the Canadian National Institute for the Blind with your picture and signature on it
Current foreign passport
OR
Choice 3—Show one piece of ID from List A and have someone the bank knows confirm that you are who you say you are.
They most likely will NOT have US citizen info from anything you used to open a personal bank account. An investment account may be different.
We may very well be the last generation to remember when it was ok to tell people we are American.
allou,
File final 1040, with Form 8854 attached (and sent to other as well) up to the time of your renunciation. For those with US income for the remainder of the year, file Form 1040NR: http://www.irs.gov/instructions/i1040nr/index.html.
Calgary, thanks. I was not looking for an ID # but rather I was wondering if they keep paper copies of the identity documents we present them. If they do (or did, I opened my account back around 1990) and it was for example my passport, then even though they do not have my POB in their database, they may spot it if/ when they go through my paper file.
I have opened investment accounts recently, and no ID documents were required (presumably because I am a long-time customer).
Canadian banks do have some information on nationalities by these bank account closings: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/iranian-canadians-fume-as-td-closes-accounts-1.1268468
@BreakingSad
In the UK, I have yet to receive anything on FATCA and I used my US passport exclusively for account opening ID purposes until 2007. For accounts between $50k and $1 million they do an electronic record search. If they took a photocopy of a US passport but didn’t enter into their electronic records (because it wasn’t policy or they didn’t track it) they are unlikely to identify the accounts unless they look through all the paperwork. Some of the new account opening forms in the UK ask very specifically for country of birth, all nationalities and US personhood.
Does anyone know if FATCA also requires banks to re-document existing accounts using the new account opening procedures?
life insurance companies will ask birthplace info as part of their risk assessment, also do not purchase travel insurance from your local bank if they require your travel plans to determine rates.
@LM, well that’s what happened with my Swiss bank. I’d renounced literally a few days before I was sent a W-9 form to sign and when I explained about the renunciation they extended the time limit for sending the form back by a few months to give the CLN a chance to arrive. I received mine quite quickly so was able to send it on to the bank in good time and I’ve heard nothing since. Given how long the wait time is becoming for getting CLN’s if you can get that interim document from the embassy/consulate it may be a godsend. My bank only extended my deadline by 3 months which doesn’t sound as if it would be long enough these days.
@BreakingSad, I don’t know exactly what’s in the Canadian IGA, but in the Swiss one I believe the banks are required to do both electronic and paper searches. Whether they’ve kept paper records going back to 1990 or further is anyone’s guess. My American-ness only came to light when we were applying for a mortgage in 2011 so though they had it on record they hadn’t check it beforehand. I know it was on their records because when we originally opened our account in 1998 I did so with my American passport because that was the one I used to enter Switzerland with and I was down on American on my Swiss residence permit so always used the American passport so info matched up when opening things like accounts.
@Edelweiss, if there is any indication of a “US person” on a particular account then they will be following up on it. So it’ll depend on what records they’ve kept that they need to check back on.
Anyone have any experience in filing a US tax return in the year of relinquishment? I did it back in 2003, but my relinquishment date was in December and I didn’t owe any US taxes anyway, so it was a non-issue. I’m working with a friend who plans on relinquishing at some point in 2014 and who generally *does* have a small amount of US tax liability each year due to RESPs. Is there anything weird we need to know about deductions and exemptions? The foreign-earned income threshhold?