Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
My CLN is also in a different name because it has my full married name, whereas my tax returns and 8854 are only in my maiden name since that was the name I applied for my social security name under…I just don’t know how they’re going to realize I’ve logged out of the system if I send my copy of 8854 to Philadelphia with it having only my maiden name. Just don’t know what to do….
Perhaps the safest thing would be to go ahead and enclose a copy of the CLN with my 8854, at least to the Philly address…
@monalisa1776
Aside from nerve wracking, it’s also idiotic. Why the IRS cannot do its own internal communication is entirely beyond me. I suppose we should be comforted that the IRS is this compartmentalized and disjoint. If only it were, you know, actually a service…
It is not really acceptable that your paid preparer didn’t know to do this. You should probably tell them, in case they are letting some of their other customers down.
But… you’re on the home straight. It looks like you have everything ready to go, so I guess you got over your 1099 delay. Once this is sent it looks like you’re done for good. Congratulations! I know first-hand just what a slog all of this is.
@monalisa1776, My accountant told me that it does not matter about maiden name or married name being different on the different forms, he said the way they know who you are is by the SSN, that is all they care about.
@Saddened, that’s probably true but my CLN didn’t have any reference to my social security number so don’t see how they would be able to easily tell who I was on the 8854. It’s so nerve-wracking. Perhaps I should just attach a copy of the CLN but am afraid that could offend a disgruntled IRS employee…just don’t know what to do.
@Watcher, I am still waiting for my local brokerage statements, but as my total taxable income was under $10,000, they decided to proceed because it would have at most only made few hundred dollars difference. With such a low income, they probably figured that it would be less of a risk for me to go ahead and file it well ahead of the 15 June deadline than fool with applying for extra extensions and further delays in my refund.
I also believe that some US banks may start withholding 30% when wiring money abroad after FATCA starts going into effect in July, so they’re trying to help me get it all done so that I will hopefully have my refund safely remitted well before then. I’m assuming the whole process will take about three months from the time I mail it.
My accountant has also warned me that there is a risk that I could be audited for 2013 as late as in 2017 , especially because my income will inevitably differ from what my accounts will report to the IRS via FATCA since I will only be reporting for the small portion of 2013 that I was a US person.
@whatAmi and @calgary411
TY both for the advice. I did know here are some IRS forms, but I haven’t completely figured them all out yet. What I do know is that this process won’t get any easier, and I have intended to go through with it for years, so now is as good a time as any.
I haven’t scheduled he appt yet, will do so later this week. I wanted to make sure i have all the paperwork and am as prepared as I’m gonna be before writing the Vancouver consulate.
CycleVancouver,
Any questions — you know where to ask. You`re right — better sooner than later! You will find experiences of others for the Vancouver Consulate at the Consulate Directory link sent. The process is said to have significantly improved there. At one point, some made their appointments for Calgary instead of Vancouver.
ML. You’re breaking my heart. You’re like the Lion in the wizard of Oz. We have to keep on urging you to stop worrying – to little avail.
They haven’t the resources nor the interst to worry about you. It makes no difference what you do-they won’t care. So pick a course and stick to it. They can’t withhold on any payments to Britain. GB signed an IGA expressly to prevent that. You have zero risk of being audited. Imagine an auditor in Austin saying “let’s spend thousands of dollars and hours of our precious time to pick on MonaLisa over in England.” He would be chastised on the spot.
@Monalisa1776, don’t get stressed by this, there are simple solutions. I never changed my SSN details over to my married name either as I hadn’t been in the States for decades by the time I married so thought I’d never need it again.
On the Streamlined Questionnaire that my tax preparer made up he simply put both single and married surnames on the form so it read:
Katherine Mary Jones Smith with Jones being the single name and Smith the married (not real names of course). He didn’t detail which was which, but you could if you wanted – i.e. Katherine Mary Smith nee Jones.
Or write a letter to go with your filing pointing out that your CLN is in the name of ….. but your SSN is in your maiden name of …..
They’re not going to bite you because the details don’t immediately match. Just give them both and they’ll work it out for themselves. They’ll work with the SSN number so it will be easy for them to match up to your records while having either the second surname on the form or a letter from you will allow them to match up to your CLN certification. Remember they’re dealing with these sorts of changes every day so are used to matching up CLN records to tax filings and 8854’s. Remember too that the IRS are sent a copy of every CLN issued so will be looking to match those with final filing forms. Plus, although the CLN doesn’t have your SSN number on it, the record of your renunciation/relinquishment does so it’s easy to cross check. I would be very surprised if the State Department didn’t send along with each CLN the basic info of your name, birth date, SSN, etc, to the IRS. Or log it into a database that the IRS can cross check.
@monalisa1776
I expect most IRS employees are disgruntled most of the time. I would be if that were my job. But given that they are already dealing here with a specific renunciation form I doubt that a copy of a CLN alongside it would push any of them over the edge.
@MedeaFleecestealer
And we can all look forward to an entry in the quarterly list that reads “Last name: Jones, First name: Katherine, Middle names: Mary Smith Nee”…
@monalisa1776
My understanding is that FATCA reporting will begin as of Jan. 1, 2014, so anything you had 2013 will not be an issue. Don’t worry about it, but do make sure your banks know you’re no longer a “US person” so they won’t report on your accounts going forward.
Regarding when/where to send 8854: it’s stated clearly on the form instructions. No need to rely on information from accountants or otherwise speculate about it. It’s a no-brainer, really… Apart from that, I agree with Watcher – don’t send them anything they didn’t ask for! If they can’t correlate your name, SSN, etc., that’s their problem, not yours.
@Watcher, as the list is made up from presumably those granted a CLN the two surnames wouldn’t be a problem as they wouldn’t appear on your CLN. Although given the mistakes that have already appeared in the list over the years it wouldn’t surprise me to see such a listing for someone.
@monalisa1776
Make sure your US payers know that your are in the UK and not a US person by filing W-8BEN with all of them. This should get you the treaty (and IGA) rates, and remove forever any threat of FATCA withholding on payments to you. Plus it just feels good to be able to certify non-US-personhood. Every time I fill out one of these I find myself doing a small mostly-mental fist-pump.
Your accountant probably has to warn you of the risk of an audit to cover their own butts, but did you ask them about the likelihood? Chances are thousands and thousands to one against, for lots of reasons (legal, territorial, and practical). And nothing of yours should ever be reported to the US under FATCA once you make sure all your UK banks know you are not a US person.
Duke of Devon and notamused are right.
@Medea
I was mostly just being flippant about the systemic inaccuracies observed in the quarterly ‘golden ticket’ list. Though ‘Nee’ would be an excellent middle name to have 🙂
@Watcher, I agree that I need to do that but luckily will only have a few hindered in my US account after my refund is wired back to me here in the UK.
I believe my ISA and employer pension plan are deemed compliant under the IGA so won’t be reported anyway. And if it’s true that nothing will be reported from 2013 then I don’t think I really have anything to worry unduly about….could become a bit more awkward for people who expatriate from 2014 onwards, fil
Relinquishing & Tax –
My wife moved to Canada in 1976 & received her citizenship in 1999, with full intent to expatriate. She would like to obtain a CLN by engaging in the confirmation of ‘Relinquished’ process, now. Can anyone advise what the tax implications are for Relinquishing? Are they similar to renouncing? Will the US expect her to complete the ‘Streamlined’ or other tax/FBAR filing process? Thanks IBS & respondents.
Couple of comments on this thread:
1. For people who expatriated a long time ago (before they started creating 10 years overhang, exit taxes etc) there was never any obligation to do ANYTHING. If you became a Canadian and had the intent to relinquish: mission accomplished. Don’t know why Gregorio for example would want to put his wife’s neck in the mouth of the lion by applying for a CLN, but to each his/her own.
2. It truly is a circle from which there is no exit if you are trying to comply with FBAR filings but have already expatriated many years ago (but after the rules changed in 1996 or 2004). You are NOT entitled to a SSN if you are not a citizen. Even if IRS pretends expatriation hasn’t happened until they get their pounds of flesh, it doesn’t make it so. You are not a citizen and can’t have one. Even if State gives you a passport, SS administration can take a deeper dive and decide no, you expatriated. I know this for a fact as I have seen them do it. If you are expatriated and live outside US and have no US source income, don’t think you are entitled to a TIN either. Good luck!
@Gregorio – You might want to give this a read:
Please read this post if your actual expatriation date is before 2004 (Updated)
Hi, @Anne Frank,
“1. […] Don’t know why Gregorio for example would want to put his wife’s neck in the mouth of the lion by applying for a CLN […]”
So that a financial institution doesn’t stick her neck in the mouth of the lion for him post-July 1? That would be my guess.
“2. […] You are NOT entitled to a SSN if you are not a citizen. […]”
Actually, you are. Seems they are commonly issued to spouses of citizens, people on work visas, etc. It isn’t clear to me yet whether a relinquished former citizen would qualify. Do you have any sourced info in this regard? I will be making some phone calls tomorrow (was waiting for anon caller ID to be activated) during which I hope to sneakily acquire a straight answer from the SSA, but we’ll see.
See types #2 and #3: Types of Social Security cards.
“2. […] If you are expatriated and live outside US and have no US source income, don’t think you are entitled to a TIN either. […]”
Do you mean ITIN? SSN and ITIN are both TINs. Gotta love all those acronyms.
Cheers –
@Watcher et al,
Someone posted this on IBS recently but I think it’s worth posting again:
IRS is America’s feared and failing agency | Boston Globe Feb 17, 2014
@ Gregorio,
And here’s a few more threads that may be of interest:
Pre-1995 Relinquishers and the IRS: Three Recent Legal Opinions (may also be relevant if you performed your relinquishment act between 1995 and 2004)
Michael Miller Paper on the Exit Tax: Applies Prospectively
Did You Relinquish Before 6, 1995? (may also be relevant if you performed your relinquishing act between 1995 and 2004)
Wren – you are correct and incorrect re social security card. You CAN get one from within the US as a legal alien. However, (from TIN page on IRS web site): “You will need to complete Form SS-5, Application for a Social Security Card (PDF). You also must submit evidence of your identity, age, and U.S. citizenship or lawful alien status. For more information please see the Social Security web site”.
My info re ex-citizens comes from personal knowledge. I have seen a case where the Consulate issued a passport to a US born Canadian after the law was changed in ’86. When that same person applied for a SSN the next year in order to file the box of back-tax returns he was promptly sent, the SS admin refused him a card on the basis that he couldn’t prove he hadn’t relinquished. They wanted thirty years history of every trip into or out of the US on vacation. Seems the US Gov is not very coordinated. Since he had become a citizen to avoid registering for the draft, it was pretty hard to disagree with them.on the facts so he was more than happy to accept their verdict and chucked his US passport and went on with his life as a Canadian.
@Anne Frank,
Re: “You also must submit evidence of your identity, age, and U.S. citizenship or lawful alien status […]”
Not sure which part makes me incorrect. 🙂
You are certainly right that they are sticklers about the U.S. citizenship question when it comes to non-residents. You might be interested in this anecdote from a couple weeks ago: @LM’s son’s partner – getting proof of U.S. citizenship the hard part when getting a SSN.
(We really need a way to compile these personal experiences. By the way, I would never find anything here if it weren’t for Google. Tip for anyone who isn’t aware: just type “site:isaacbrocksociety.ca ” before your search terms.)
I’ve seen other stories similar to the case you describe. I would likely get the same treatment, but being a risk averse sort of person, I can’t just chuck the passport and be done with it. I want to file my 5 years of taxes and THEN be done with it. But I don’t want to apply for a SSN, and even if I knew I wouldn’t qualify for one, according to the written rules I can’t get an ITIN without a letter of denial from the Social Security Administration (which, presumably, you can only get if you apply and are turned down). It’s like the system is rigged against us. I will see what they say when I call them, though, since there is no official documentation that I can find dealing with a case of a relinquished former citizen who has never had a SSN.
Okay, this may be a silly question but I am stumped. Is there a page on this site where I can read the requirements for renouncing one’s US citizenship? My wife is an American citizen, but we were married in 1999 and she hasn’t lived in the US since. She is not yet a Canadian citizen (it is in the works), but she has had a full-time job since 2009. We were unaware that she had to file taxes with the US and so we have not yet done so, but we are under the impression that this is necessary in order to renounce. Is this true? What are the documents that are necessary once she becomes a Canadian citizen? Is there some place where this is all clearly laid out (i.e., as clearly as it can be)? I have tried to search online for the specifics but I run into a lot of mumbo jumbo and legalese, so I have found it somewhat confusing to narrow down. Thank you for any help you can provide me. 🙂
@Anne Frank – Oops, I quoted the wrong part of your reply, and also re-reading I see that maybe you saying that I am right when it comes to resident (legal?) aliens but not nonresident aliens? Sometimes the terminology trips me up. Anyway, I was only pointing that out as a “strictly speaking” sort of thing, being the stickler I am.
@ Orange56,
Basically you make an appointment at the nearest consulate. It’s a pretty straightfoward procedure. The vice/consul looks at your file before meeting with you (some consulates have you send the form/s in in advance; others take them when you arrive and the vice/consul looks at them while you’re in the waiting area. You meet with a clerk for about 5-10 minutes. Then you meet with a vice/consul for about10-20 minutes, and that it’s.
It varies some from place to place. You can read people’s experiences in the Consulate Report Directory, which is currently 164 pages, arranged by consulate location.
These are the forms they use for renunciation:
4079. Request for determination of loss of citizenship. Important for relinquishments, is not strictly required for renunciations (according to the DOS procedure manual) but it a lot of consulate ask for it. This has four pages of questions, requiring dates; it’s best to fill it out in advance of your consulate meeting.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
4080. Oath of renunciation
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81606.pdf
4081. Statement of understanding of consequences
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81607.pdf
4083. Certificate of loss of nationality
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81609.pdf
A person can renounce their citizenship although they have not filed US taxes. Dept of State deals only with the citizenship itself; and citizenship, or loss of it, is not dependent on one’s tax status. Quite a few Brockers have renounced prior to filing.
To log out of IRS and avoid being a “covered expatriate” and other possible IRS problems, one must file the required tax forms by June 15th of the year following the renunciation (this includes the 5 years prior to renunciation, partial year for renunciation year, and 8854 exit tax form). However, whether a person files or not, the citizenship remains terminated and the certificate of loss of nationality remains valid.
@orange56,
First of all, welcome!
It can be tough tracking down the info that relates to your exact situation, but it’s out there. Give it time, don’t rush into anything. This is the most important thing.
Reunciation – This is just one type of relinquishment. It costs $450. If your wife waits for her citizenship papers, she can then go to an embassy and inform them that she naturalized in Canada with the intention of relinquishing her U.S. citizenship. Doing it this way is free. Then she’ll have to wait to receive a CLN (Certificate of Loss of Nationality) in the mail. That is what I plan to do (I am also waiting for my papers).
This post might be a good starting point for you: Relinquish don’t renounce, if you can
As for tax filing, I would probably recommend going the Streamlined route. More info here: Instructions for New Streamlined Filing Compliance Procedures for Non-Resident, Non-Filer U.S. Taxpayers. Upon relinquishment, however, the IRS requires Form 8854 (Instructions) be filed along with 5 years of filings, which would mean that if your wife went Streamlined and filed for 3 years, she would need to file 2 more returns (or more, depending on the timing of the relinquishment).
I would go the Streamlined route, myself, but my situation is complicated by the fact that I don’t have a SSN.
I hope that helps. I’m sure other Brockers will chime in. I’ve only been at this a few weeks and thanks to this community I feel like I’m starting to get my head wrapped around things. Good luck to you and your wife!