Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Wren
OK, sounds like you’ve done your homework on that one already. 😉 That kind of uncertainty with relinquishments is terrible, considering you may have to wait many months just to find out it was denied…
@Wren,
I’m no expert either. I’ve written the following to sound very matter-of-fact, but only for clarity; not because I think I know any more than anyone else here.
I don’t recall your personal history or if you posted it in much detail (all at once), and it’s too difficult to search for it with this WordPress system.
I gather you were born in the US to non-Canadian citizen parents and moved to Canada when you were a child, or at least before you entered the US workforce (since you don’t have a US SSN). Not that it matters, but how old were you when you moved to Canada? Please tell us if one of your parents was a Canadian citizen when you were born (that makes all the difference in the world). Do you have a US passport? When was it last renewed? Do NOT ever renew it again, or vote in the US, or do any other US-citizenship-privileged action.
I don’t believe @notamused’s recent posts apply to you.
The consulate told you wrong. Naturalizing is a potential expatriating act (the decision is up to you). I thought one always takes an oath when they get their Canadian citizenship? Am I right that you believe you will be made to take an oath eventually, but you just haven’t gotten to that step yet?
Regardless, it’s clear in INA 349 (A)(1) that naturalization is all that is required. INA 349(A) 2 requires an oath but is for US citizens who are not Canadian citizens who take an oath to Canada for some other reason other than naturalization. I don’t know what that might be; it doesn’t apply to anybody who has ever posted here. Taking an oath for government employment is separately covered under INA 349(A)4(b). Various consuls seem to insist on oaths when they are not required. For example, some insist on an oath for INA 349 (A)4(A), when it is only 4(B) that requires an oath.
Once you get your Canadian citizenship (you can’t do anything before), you make an appointment to notify the US of your naturalization, and that you did it voluntarily with the intent of relinquishing your US citizenship. Contrary to what @notamused posted, this cannot be refused by the US unless they think you are being forced to relinquish against your will. It’s a slam dunk. You will not be denied. You won’t even have to pay $450 because you are not renouncing, you are notifying them of your relinquishment by naturalizing as a Canadian citizen.
Since it can take up to 3 months to get an appointment date, you can make an appointment before you get your final papers to save time. If the appointment date gets near (a few weeks) and you still don’t have your citizenship, postpone the appointment until a later date. I did this in Calgary (for other reasons) and they were very nice about it.
The date of your relinquishment on the CLN will be the date of your naturalization. However, the IRS will consider the date for tax purposes as being the date of your relinquishment appointment which is also on the CLN. No matter, these two dates will just be at most a few months apart.
You have some tricky timing issues as you’ve been discussing in recent posts. Here’s what I think is the most complete and clean exit you can do. Some here will point out shortcuts that you can take, and you should consider all options. For example, some will and have said repeatedly for the 2 years that I’ve been here that you should get your Canadian citizenship and do nothing else (including never setting foot in the US again). Any action that you take less than these complete steps will involve assumptions and best guesses as to what will happen, and wishful or hopeful thinking for how the system _should_ work. There’s nothing wrong with that, if it’s what you decide is best for you.
– apply for a US SSN now (I don’t know that an ITIN is any easier to apply for in your case, and the US web sites indicate that if you’re eligible for a SSN, you must get a SSN not ITIN)
– wait until you complete your naturalization process and have your Canadian citizenship papers (and passport for good measure?), then make your appointment for relinquishment
– while the above is in progress, start gathering all your financial records for FBARs back to 2008 and tax returns back to 2009
– after your appointment, file the previous 6 years of FBARs and 5 years of taxes under the Streamlined Filing Procedure with your appointment date as your filing end date. Accountant fees to get this done right vary from $3,000 to $30,000. Some people do it themselves. There are cross-border issues that a normal US person with experience filing only US returns would know nothing about.
At the moment, I don’t think you know for sure if your relinquishment appointment will be done this year? If it is next year, you can add 1 year to the financial start dates above. I think most people are saying here that you should file the taxes according to the date of your relinquishment appointment, and not wait a year for your CLN. My own mother (aged 90) is doing that as I write.
Assuming your relinquishment appointment is this year, you have until June of 2015 to file everything for 2014 including the 8854 form.
It’s been posted several times that you should file the 2013 FBAR before June of this year. I don’t know what to make of that. All the other years are late, so why does it matter?
Lastly, I’m assuming that you will not be a covered expat. If your net worth is over $2 million, or if you pay more than about $155,000 a year in income tax (tax, not income), then you could be a covered expat. If you are a covered expat, then please disregard everything I’ve written above. You probably need (and can afford) professional help. That’s where the $30,000 price tag comes in. I have been told privately by a person who “has seen many friends who have paid a large financial price by becoming current with taxes”. Again, this is referring to covered expats. After all, all these laws and forms and filing requirements are designed to confiscate money from people above the covered expat threshold (IMHO).
Oh my, my post looks much longer after posting than it did as I was writing it! 🙂
@wren – A somewhat recent relinquishment had been granted for a local government (municipal) employee that I know of (not posted on this site, but from other contact). It qualifies as a “political subdivision thereof” under INA 349 4(A), no need for an oath. They do however ask about what involvement with policy your position may have had. Where did you hear that a local government position is not considered? – Geri
@Geri, @Wren
If @Wren made a comment about government employment, I missed reading that. Since she was not a Canadian citizen, it would only count for her as an expatriating act if she took an oath, as in INA 349 (A)4(B).
@Geri,
I worked for a municipal-level government. Please please please, can you post the link here for the case that you mentioned? So far, I am aware only of successful provincial and federal employment. I haven’t read of any municipal jobs claims, either successful or not.
@WhatAmI
An ITIN should be *way* easier to get than a SSN. You don’t have to prove that you’re a US citizen and you don’t have to account for every second of your life outside of the US.
That’s why “renounce, then get ITIN” is much easier than “get SSN, then renounce”.
My 2 cents.
@WhatAmI,
Thank you for the thoughtful response. I have been trying to articulate my individual concerns in separate threads in order to stay on-topic. Of course the downside of this can be lack of context.
In a nutshell: I was born to U.S. citizens in the U.S. Moved to Canada as a child in 1974. I have a valid U.S. passport (no, I will not renew it). I’ve never voted in the U.S. or done anything else that would tie me to that country in any “official” way. I applied for my Canadian citizenship about a year ago and it is still being processed (wait time when I applied was estimated at 2-1/2 years). In the meantime, all I have is this lousy PR card which I finally took out of my wallet and stuck in the cupboard with my U.S. passport because it depresses me to look at it. I have a sister who is in the same boat, although unfortunately she has not gotten around to applying for her citizenship, yet.
it’s interesting that you didn’t mention renouncing (before I am granted Canadian citizenship) as an option. Why not? (This actually goes back to my original question posted yesterday.)
I haven’t spoken with a consulate, actually. That was someone else’s account. The conclusion you came to regarding whether applying for a citizenship constitutes relinquishment is the same as mine. Boy, would that be nice if it were true.
After the stories I’ve heard, it would be very hard to convince me to apply for an SSN.
I’ve bookmarked your comment so that I can go back to it. I appreciate how you laid things out.
@Geri –
“Involvement with policy” – ha! None whatsoever. I was a clerk for a municipality in my 20s. My only oath was the one I made to myself never to go back. But still, it entertains me to imagine that being my golden ticket out of this mess.
@WhatAmI, @tdott
Re: (@tdott) “An ITIN should be *way* easier to get than a SSN.”
I believe this is true. I can send in my ITIN application with my 1040s if I go the Streamlined route.
RE @WhatAmI and @tdott
I have not seen the earlier comment about getting an ITIN, so am not certain of the context, but thought I would mention that hubby and I have checked with several highly qualified cross-border legal/accounting sources about whether one should get an ITIN or should use ones SSN from before renunciation after one renounces. The experts seem to agree that you should continue to use your original SSN. With relinquishment, it”s probably the same.
Hi @LM,
That actually makes sense, if you already have one. What we’re discussing is ITIN vs SSN when you have neither. It appears that SSN applications coming from folks like us (as opposed to first-class American *resident* citizens) tend to lead to long waits and extra scrutiny.
@Wren, all I can say is that there are no reports that I know of, of someone renouncing/relinqushing and then applying for an ITIN when doing their back filing. Whether the IRS will/does accept ITIN applications from ex-citizens is anyone’s guess. As usual, it’s a grey area because no one’s ever had to deal with this sort of thing before. It will depend on whether the IRS still considers you eligible for an SSN, even though you’re no longer a US citizen.
As far as renouncing before you get your Canadian citizenship well, theoretically, it is possible. There’s nothing in the rules/laws that say you can’t make yourself stateless if you want to. But some embassies/consulates absolutely refuse to allow you to renounce if you don’t have another citizenship.
@MedeaFleecestealer
How could the IRS *not* accept an ITIN? A non-US citizen who is not a US resident (NRA?) would not be eligible for a SSN, right? If so, there would be no way for Wren to get a SSN after renouncing. As such, if the IRS wants to process those tax returns, then they have to accept an ITIN, no?
@tdott, it’s logical I agree. Whether it’s logical to the IRS is another question entirely. I haven’t heard of any reports one way or the other so if anyone wants to try it and report back on their success in filing or otherwise it could be very useful for others in future.
@ Wren
I don’t know where you live or if you ever travel into the US but I’ll add this to the discussion: my son’s partner was born in London, England to 1 US parent. She now lives in BC. While son was going through his stages-prior-to-renunciation, she figure she aught to get a SSN so she could do all the proper paperwork and then renounce. She went just over the border into the US (for a couple days “vacation”) and arranged an appointment to come into a SSN office to arrange for a SSN. I imagine that she took lots of documentation with her but after that face-to-face it didn’t take long to get a number. Hope this helps you (or someone else in your spot). 🙂
@whatami and @wren you are correct, if you are not already a Canadian citizen then INA 349 4(A) would not apply. I missed that detail.
@whatami, with regards t the muni worker, it was a personal exchange not a publicly posted one. I cannot direct you to a site with this information but am happy to correspond directly with you. Feel free as ask the site admin to put us in touch. Our situations are similar, however I suspect I am a bit younger. – Geri
@LM
There are several people here who would really like to know exactly what paperwork your son’s partner took over the border to get the SSN. I’ve recently reported the horrible list of documents a friend had to produce while staying in Canada to get a SSN.
@tdott
Yes, it _should_ be easier to get an ITIN than a SSN. I posted that belief here several times before I actually looked at the instructions for both (albeit briefly). For an ITIN, as you say, you don’t have to prove you’re a US citizen. However, you have to prove your foreign status. This means originals of various similar documents, so it doesn’t look any easier. The documents must be originals or certified originals from the original issuer of the document. That’s what I mean by “not much easier”. I think you can take the originals to a US consulate and have them make certified copies, but the instructions need more studying to confirm this.
I’ve posed a question to a lawyer: can a person, after renouncing, legally get an ITIN instead of a SSN for their final tax filings? I’ll report back if I get an answer. One could also phone the SS and/or IRS people about this.
@Wren
My opinion is that your application for Canadian Citizenship means nothing until the process is complet, which you say could be 1.5 years from now.
Your original question I think was “will the CRA protect me from past delinquencies with the IRS?”. Well, Flaherty’s remarks say clearly that they won’t help the IRS collect fines or taxes if the person was a Canadian citizen at the time, which you were not. However, the Streamlined Filing Procedure is designed for people like you who didn’t know they had a filing obligation and owe little or no tax (less than $1500 or so per year). That is your protection against fines.
I did not mention renouncing for you for a couple of reasons. As someone mentioned, although not required by law the consul will probably not let you renounce until you have another citizenship. When you book an appointment (in Calgary at least), you are told: “You should also provide evidence of your Canadian citizenship to show that you will not become stateless by renouncing your U.S. citizenship”. So, you have to wait until you have Canadian citizenship. Once you have that, you can claim the relinquishment and save $450. There are no differences between this and renouncing as far as your filing obligations go.
Without an oath, your municipal employment while not a Canadian citizen won’t count under INA 349 (a)4(b).
As you can see in the responses today, there are a lot of “should be” and “I think” etc. That’s the problem. Nobody knows for sure yet. I hope they are right, and people are working to find out. It takes time. My steps were intended to show you the worst case scenario to be confident you are doing everything to the maximum if your tolerance level for uncertainty requires that. Anything less involves hopes, opinions and guesswork at this point.
I should say that I’m not arguing that other options are bad. As proof, I will tell you that if my relinquishment claim is denied I am loathe to do the steps that I outlined for you, and probably won’t. If the US doesn’t respect my laws, why should I respect theirs? You just need to understand all the options and decide for yourself. My plan has changed a few times over the last 2 years, including a major change just 2 weeks ago.
@Wren
You didn’t say if you might be considered a “covered expat” as defined in form 8854.
@calgary411
Could you please send my email address to Geri so we might communicate in private? Thanks!
WhatAmI,
Done!
Can anyone share their experience on how long it takes to get a back-dated CLN for a relinquishment case. My appointment was at the US Embassy in Paris over a year ago and I’m still waiting…
@ TryingToBePatient,
There’s a chart showing CLN delivery time, arranged by consulate location, beginning on page 150 of the Consulate Report Directory.
Contact the embassy on Monday. You’ve been waiting a very long time — so, I’d suggest if the embassy gives some stock meaningless reply, like “these things take a long time,” then I’d contact the office in Washington that handles the CLNs (Dept of State/Consular Affairs/US Citizen Services/Europe Division). I don’t have an e-mail address, but the phone number for Division Chief Teresa Mendel is 202-485-6245.
@WhatAmI
I went to the SSA office in Niagara Falls, NY in Dec 2011 without an appointment. I brought my US birth certificate, marriage certificate, Canadian Passport, Canadian SIN, and immigration paper showing when I moved to Canada. They asked me for my mother’s phone number to ask her if she ever applied for a SSN for me. I told them she had dementia, so they accepted the phone number of my older sister (as if she would know if my parents applied for a SSN for me!) They did call my sister. I had the SSN in one week. Initially, the clerk told me I wasn’t a US citizen. When I asked for that it writing, she just processed my application. I know others have had a much harder time.
@WhatAmI
If you have a Canadian passport, it’s not overly painful. You go to the passport office (not any old government services office) with the passport and request a certified true copy (currently still free, soon to cost $). They check the documentation and tell you to come back in about a week to pick up the passport and the certified copies.
Having said that, I guess the pain level increases quite a bit if you don’t live near one of these. Seems you then have to mail in the passport and application.
This guy outlines the process fairly well: http://taxtim.ca/2012/01/08/certifying-canadian-passport-2/
Regarding ITIN following renunciation:
On the W-7 (ITIN application) you must check an option under Reason you are submitting Form W-7. One of the options is Nonresident alien filing a U.S. tax return, which on the surface seems like the obvious choice; however when in the instructions this category is clarified as:
<strong<b. Nonresident alien filing a U.S. tax return. This category includes:
• A nonresident alien who must file a U.S. tax return to report income effectively or not effectively connected with the conduct of a trade or business in the United States, and
• A nonresident alien who is filing a U.S. tax return only to get a refund.”
Sorry, I meant to include links:
W-7 (Application for Individual Tax Identification Number ITIN)
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw7.pdf
Instructions for filling out W-7
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/iw7.pdf