Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Have you had trouble with your bank because of your U.S. passport? If so, Bloomberg would love to speak to you for an article about the effects of Washington’s clampdown on tax evaders on average citizens living abroad. Reporter Catherine Bosley can be reached at cbosley1@bloomberg.net
Liam Pleven, a reporter at The Wall Street Journal continues to do research on the impact of the ongoing U.S. crackdown on U.S. taxpayers with overseas assets. Liam is looking to reach people who can talk to him about their own experiences. Liam is interested in hearing about people’s personal circumstances, how their lives and the lives of their families have been affected, and any emotional repercussions – regardless of what income bracket they may fall into. If you are willing to share your story, please contact Liam at liam.pleven@wsj.com or by phone in New York at 212-416-2766 prior to January 29.
https://www.facebook.com/RAEurope
Looks a little late on both of them, but maybe the first one is still open for comment.
No doubt the headline will include “tax evaders”
They should at least be contacted to write their headlines appropriately.
Hi. Does anyone out there know if I relinquish/renounce my US citizenship can the US take away my daughter’s citizenship? She was born outside of the US and gain her US citizenship because I was a US citizen at the time of her birth. Her mother is not a US citizen.
Thanks in advance.
@Michael Jones, daughter citizenship
From what I have read, no your daugjhter will remain a US citizen as you were a US citizen at the time of her birth.If you have registered her birth with a US consulate, then she is in the records. If you have not, she is probably not recorded – which means she is free to make her own decision about the matter – I am not certain as to when she can do that. Any future children you may have will not be able to claim US citizenship via you if they are born after you are no longer a USC. Good luck!
Michael Jones,
No, if you claim a relinquishment (when becoming a citizen of another country for instance and then doing nothing that would call you a US Person from that time forth) or renunciation, it would not affect your daughter’s US citizenship. It sounds as if you would not want her to lose her US citizenship.
(Speaking for myself, if it were only that easy, my life would become simplified and my son (with a developmental disability) would no longer be entrapped into his automatically conveyed US citizenship.)
@Michael Jones, if you’ve registered her birth at a US embassy/consulate then as far as the States are concerned she’s American forever, unless she commits a relinquishing act with the intention of losing her American citizenship or she renounces. If she hasn’t been registered, but does want to lay claim to it then enquire at your nearest US embassy/consulate for more info. This may help:
http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/abroad/events-and-records/birth.html
@ Medea and Michael and any others,
For my kids’ births and many others (although my children were never registered as US birth abroad), I paid a US Washington, DC immigration / nationality for his adamant advice that my children obtained automatic US citizenship from the moment of their birth to me and their father (in Canada), just before we were able to become Canadian citizens. For my children at least, it is NOT a CLAIM to US citizenship — that US citizenship was automatic. We’ve discussed this subject elsewhere on this blog and whether or not advice that some US Consulates have given is correct. US DOS conversation was just obfuscation, nothing they would commit to.
Of course, I dispute that automatic “gift” of US citizenship because my son, with a developmental disability, is thus entrapped into that US citizenship as he cannot renounce and a parent, a guardian or a trustee cannot renounce on his (or any other such person) behalf, even with a court order. (This could as well apply to someone with age-related dementia — not comprehending what citizenship is, including all its benefits and consequences). That’s what the law is. I believe that always it should be an ‘opt-in’ to US citizenship (or any other) if there are qualifications, rather than an ‘opt-out’ as is the case with all US law. If there is a law that would entrap anyone into citizenship (in the case of my son, US), in my opinion it is very bad, even immoral, law.
Right now I say that I will never register my son with the US, the only reason for which would be for him to renounce, which is not allowed in his case = entrapment.
@Calgary411, as you rightly point out the US more often than not considers children of one or both American parents to be citizens. But also as you have rightly pointed out in another thread there is the idea that one must claim it before a certain age depending on certain conditions.
http://www.uscis.gov/us-citizenship/citizenship-through-parents
http://www.uscis.gov/policymanual/HTML/PolicyManual-Volume12-PartH-Chapter5.html#S-A
Michael Jones’ daughter may or may not be automatically American. This is something he/they need to investigate so they know exactly where she stands.
@Calgary. I know you have written about this a hundred times and despite the advice you got from the US Immigration lawyer and the Consulate, I believe you are absolutely correct that your son should be considered a Canadian only unless he claimed US Citizenship. To argue that he was automatically a US Citizen is to argue that he was born in Canada under US law. He was in fact born in Canada under CANADIAN law, not anybody else’s laws, but perhaps eligible to be a US Citizen. Notwithstanding the fact that the US thinks they can pass any extraterritorial law they like, I highly doubt they can IMPOSE US citizenship extraterritorialy. If they could do that, they may as well impose citizenship on all the filthy rich people in the world and chase them for taxes and ask them to register for the draft, etc. It is ridiculous on its face. It seems to me that in seeking the advice of a US lawyer and the US Consulate, you got answers from people who act as if the US laws supercede anybody else’s laws regardless of jurisdiction.
As I said, you have stated your position many times. I think you are absolutely correct.
@Only a Canadian
It would be a great relief to many in situations similar to Calgary411’s if the State Department would make such a statement, but considering the IRS goes so far as to consider a green card holder a taxable US person even when non-resident, I don’t thinks is all that much of a stretch to claim our children as US persons also. In the absence of such a statement, one must error on the side of caution.
@Calgary411, Only a Canadian, I quite agree. Being born in Canada trumps any US ties there may be. There should an option to claim American citizenship from descent if someone wants to do it, but it shouldn’t be automatically assumed under law.
Only a Canadian,
I know I go on and on, with maybe a chance of someone new reading here without the realization of the absurdity that could apply to their family. I just know it will affect others. I just feel it is unjust, especially for those new to such a situation (I’m pretty much at peace with my stand and will stand up and broadcast whatever consequences). I know in my gut there will be many as affected as my family.
On another note, it preys on my mind every single day the number of people this round-up of US Persons will affect who DO NOT have financial resources for their own lives that they think is unaffected by this, who besides having very little in the way of finances, have very little in the way of financial / tax (whatever the country) literacy. There have to be more than a fair share of these individuals / families out there. One has told me she is too poor for this to affect her. So, will that be true? You can’t get blood from a stone so these people should not worry about any of this? What will be their consequences; what will happen to the lives of these families who for whatever reason just don’t have money to get US legal / accounting advice and certainly do not have the expertise to handle it themselves? I don’t want to scare the bejesus out of them. I can very well put myself into their shoes: there but for the grace of god could have gone I — much of my life a single parent with two children, one with developmental disability as well as concurrent medical problems (and me with my own medical issues). Believe me, I know the lucky breaks I’ve had to be able to be a contributing member of Canadian society (along with some very hard work and planning) and I thank all that is holy, that my path brought me to Canada — I would choose this as my country of citizenship over and over again. Had I stayed in the US, I am convinced my circumstances would have rendered me a ‘welfare mom’ with two small children to raise. Do not other people here think that this, aside from our problems, could be huge in the number so affected — and damn ugly?
I was born in the US to Canadian parents attending school. I have lived in Canada since THREE MONTHS of age. I met the criteria under section 1482 of the immigration code on 8/1978, i.e. was living in Canada for 3 years after turning age 22. Section 1482 was repealed in 10/1978, and I understand was not made retroactive. I have never lived in the US, have never applied for a US passport or SSN. Do I have to apply for a CLN? Can I just stop worrying about FATCA? Any thoughts?
WeeGillis,
I’ll leave it to others here to add to my comment as they are in the same circumstance as you. Your place of birth was the US; your Canadian passport and birth certificate would reflect that you are a US citizen by birth in the good old USA. Yes, you do have a problem. What the chances of your detection, what you decide to do about that problem needs a lot of research on your part. It is not at all fair — you, as so many in Canada, are “accidental Americans”. It is, unfortunately, unless someone who can make a difference uses some common sense, a huge problem. Stick around — there will be a lot of support and a lot of information for your research here. Unfortunately, ignoring the problem will not make it go away.
@WeeGillis
Good question. I didn’t turn 25 until a few months after Oct 10, 1978. BUMMER! Since you made it by 2 months, you might give it a try. I would.
The same changes in 10/1978 struck voting in a foreign election from the list of expatriating acts, also prospective only. However, it seems that the DoS ignores the claim of voting. I have a meeting coming up and I plan to present all of the possible expatriating acts that I committed and let them decide and choose.
Look at 7 FAM 1230 APPENDIX C FORMER INA 350. It seems to say that it is no longer valid, but if you insist it should be forwarded to the DoS to decide. Worth a try?
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120532.pdf
Since your passport shows a US place of birth, you need a CLN to enter the US these days, even though it was never an issue in the past. If you decide to never enter the US again, you could be OK without a CLN. Oh, except for FATCA…
We don’t know enough yet about how various institutions are going to handle FATCA due diligence for determining US personage and reporting. Even though the IGA says they don’t have to report on accounts less than $50K, that doesn’t mean they won’t simply choose to do so (which the IGA allows). The FATCA FAQ says:
But, does that mean they cannot, and will not?
I don’t remember offhand if banks are meant to ask about US birthplace when opening new accounts starting July 1, 2014.
I am now preparing to relinquish our US citizenship. This process is very scary. I attended the frightening information session in Castlegar, BC and now have even more questions. We were told that the Vancouver embassy now requires a birth certificate less than 30 years old, with a security chip included. What?? Ours are over 65 years old (US) but are now unacceptable? We were also told we need not only our present Canadian passport but our previous, expired Cdn passport. How on earth would we get that?? We turned it in when we replaced it with the updated passport. Also we were told we would need a copy of our signed oath of allegiance from 1977. I sent away for that through the Privacy Act but don’t know if that was the right place to ask. It may arrive by 25 Feb. Otherwise, thanks to the IBS and Maplesandbox it looks like we have all our ducks in a row to request a meeting with the Van consulate once we get the oaths in hand. We are considering hiring one of three lawyers we have found, two of whom are immigration lawyers, but aren’t sure we need to. I assume we would not need to file taxes if we can get a back dated CLN from 1977. Any answers would be appreciated.
@Garm
If it is any help. the Calgary Consulate accepted my July 1967 Copy of my 1957 Birth Certificate that was issued (when and) for my Canadian Naturalization in Toronto in Dec 1967…I happened to have noticed that it was a certified copy of my original…I also carried all my past Canadian Passports dating back to 1968, though they only looked at my current passport… For what it is worth…
I flew to the Calgary Consulate even though Vancouver was closer, as it was easier to make an appointment…and it seems they are somewhat more efficient.
@ Garm,
Is this the same meeting that was held in
VancouverCastlegar (corrected by comments below) on February 11th?If so, I am getting the distinct impression that the “expert/s” at that meeting — not a Brock/Sandbox Info Session, btw — didn’t know what they were talking about regarding relinquish/renounce procedure, as these requirements not only sound fishy, but they have not surfaced before anywhere, and they are not in the e-mail list of requirements I received from the Vancouver Consulate a few months ago.
Sure, requirements can change over time and Vancouver has been overly picky, in my opinion, with documentation. However, Vancouver will send you a detailed list of what they require you to bring to (or send in advance of) your expatriating meeting. Personally I’d just go with the documents on the Vancouver consulate’s list.
I know the expert/s at that Feb 11 meeting got the issue of the renunciation fee having increased at Vancouver completely wrong, as came up in these comments a few days ago:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/02/11/carp-weighs-in-on-fatca/comment-page-2/#comment-1095150
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/02/11/carp-weighs-in-on-fatca/comment-page-1/#comment-1095066
You mention the possibility of hiring a lawyer. The Dept of State aspect of expatriation is pretty straightforward. You probably don’t need one. Very very few people would.
You mentioned that the process is very scary. I think it is somewhat scary and it certainly is an unfamiliar thing to deal with, but it usually ends up goes pretty smoothly and pretty quickly. The consulates are really getting used to doing this. With all your ducks lined up, yours will probably go well too.
You can read people’s accounts of their consulate meetings in the Consulate Report Directory. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/consulate2/ It has over 150 pages, arranged by consulate location.
@Garm
A birth certificate with a security chip? This exists?
I had wanted to attend the Castlegar meeting but couldn’t get there. Wish I had now.
If you have a choice, I would go to Calgary. That’s what I did and got a backdated CLN last February. You are pretty much equidistant from Vancouver and Calgary in the West Kootenays. My birth certificate was accepted and is well over 30 years old and not an original, and was accepted without question. They did not required cancelled passports although I had them with me. They had been returned when obtaining a new passport. I had the signed oath of allegiance, but did not use it, although I referred to it on Form 4079. Hopefully all those requirements are peculiar to the Vancouver consulate.
As to a lawyer – I had hired one and it turned out to be expensive and useless. There was nothing in the process of relinquishment that was particularly complicated (although it was intimidating) and it would have been much faster and less stressful without the lawyer. Pretty much everything you need to know about the relinquishment process is extensively documented on this website.
As to taxes – who really knows? I am counting on the fact (or fiction) that since my relinquishment goes back almost 50 years, I am through with all branches of the American government and have done no filing and have not contacted the IRS other than at an early stage, sending them an e-mail question which they did not/could not answer. Mostly I sleep nights.
Hope this helps, neighbour.
@Pacifica777
I believe you’re referring to the Castlegar meeting that Alex Atamanenko NDP MP on February 11th. Can you direct me to where the outcome of that meeting is posted? I’ve found an article that’s been circulating the Nelson area by him at the same time, and referred to here:
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2014/02/13/ndp-mp-alex-atamanenko-commentary-on-fatca-in-boundary-sentinel/#comments
Yes, that was the 11Feb meeting in Castlegar. Lots of misinformation, flippancy (by the tax people), scare stuff was said, even suggestions to just enter the OVDI as the “simple solution”. There were very many frightened people there, made more frightened. What seemed a good idea put forth by our MP who is championing our cause just didn’t work out well.
@ Garm
Has anyone presented these concerns/complaints to MP Atamanenko? He really has to be taken to task for arranging a terror session for people who are very vulnerable to tax condors. The flippancy thing just made me flip out. How dare they! And on top of all that they doled out disinformation too. Not acceptable! Did anyone get any Brock business cards into the hands of those poor people who attended?
@Bubblebustin,
The only thing I remember reading about that meeting was the comment that I referred to in my comment above. I think I may have read something else about it, but can’t recall where now.
I think that Alex Atamanenko did not know it would not turn out well and he was unable to attend, what with the budget coming out. No mention of IBS, long lines of people with questions. Someone wrote asking Alex to redo the session with John Richardson from citizenship solutions who is speaking in Van on 22 Feb.
@ Garm
I really hope MP Atamanenko does a redo because that really disturbs me to think of so many people walking out of that meeting in worse shape than they went in. He owes his constituents a new meeting and the sooner the better. If this happens do we have any Brockers in that area who could go there to hand out Brock cards and fact sheets?
Bloody hell. With misinformation given out at these ‘tax expert’ sessions, this one arranged by your MP, scare tactics to funnel people into OVDI/OVDP ‘simple solutions’ coupled with UNEDUCATED ABOUT FATCA MPs who tell their ‘US Person’ constituents that they have nothing to worry about — the government negotiated a good solution for Canada with the US IGA, just sweep us all into the dust bin. I’m really, really disgusted.