Liberty and justice for all United States persons abroad

The Isaac Brock Society

Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two

Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.

Participants will need to provide their e-mail address (real or fake) and an alias. The only written rule is that participants must use a same alias each time they post (and not “anonymous” or derivatives thereof).

Bear in mind that any responses that you get from participants is peer-to-peer help, and it is not intended as a replacement for professional advice. Also, the Isaac Brock Society provides this disclaimer: neither the Society nor any of its members are professionals. We offer our advice here only in friendship and we recommend that our readers seek professional advice if they need it.

If you wish to receive an e-mail notification of comments, check the box to that effect when making your first comment.

NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too  large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One

 

10,433 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two”

  1. Note to Congress – Please do not force me to give up my US citizenship

    If and when I get the letter, I do not see any other option than to apply for Swedish citizenship and renounce my US citizenship – and presumably that of my children. I can live with a little inconvenience and arbitrariness, if that is the cost of maintaining the link with my ancestral home. But I can’t live in the 21st century without bank accounts.

    I don’t know if anyone in the US particularly cares about whether me and my little flock in distant Scandinavia remain part of their community or not. But does that justify allowing foreign banks to take the decision for me?

  2. Hi. MedeaFleecestealer you mentioned filing US tax returns but by law ALL expats have to file US tax returns so this condition seems quite nonsensical to me.

  3. @Michael Jones, yes but many expats, including me, didn’t know they needed to file US tax returns. I left the States over 40 years ago and had never heard of this. The one and only tax return I ever filled in was during a social studies class in junior high! It was only when my husband and I were arranging a Swiss mortgage to purchase a property and my American citizenship nearly put a stop to the whole thing did I start investigating and found out I should have been filing. It is mentioned on the last page of what was my last US passport which was issued in 2007 that citizens have to file, but the previous two passports make no mention of it. I believe notices were put up in the embassies/consulates about it, but I renewed my last passport by post and there was no enclosure to inform me about any filing requirements when the new one was sent back. So it’s really only in the last 10 or so years that the IRS/US government has been pushing to enforce this law. That’s why many citizens are scrabbling to become tax compliant and why the IRS introduced its Voluntary Disclosure Programs some years ago.

  4. wow oh wow

    you go away for 2 weeks to a place with no internet, tv’s or radio and life as you knew it changes.

    i can not believe that the canadian gov’t caved on this. it is so disapointing to be left in the void and to really have to find strength to go forward.

    while away i spoke to many dual’s who knew nothing of either or both fatca and having to file. thye were shocked when they found out. i met one lady in her mid ’70s and she had just finshed her 5 years of paperwork and was going to be going to the consulate to get rid of her us citizenship when she returned to her home country. she was still in disbelief that she had to do that to maintain some sense of sanity.

    i have still yet to get a reply from my m.p. to the 6 or 7 e mails i sent him prior to leaving. will be sending him another one later today.

    keep up the good fight all. i believe we are just starting to see the tip of this ice burg and that the gov’t has underesitimated the potential anger that is out there on the street

  5. @Michael Jones, US laws generally make no sense when applied outside of US jurisdiction. At the very least, US laws must require online tax processing to be freely available to expats if US laws are supposed to require them to file. Yet, US laws can’t even do that. Where is the US law which requires tax filing and tax processing to be free outside of US jurisidiction, given that folks who live in other jurisdictions are not subject to US jurisdiction problems? Everytime that the US attempts to export US jurisdiction problems beyond its borders, then it messes things up and creates more problems. Why can’t US laws simply prohibit the exportation of US jurisdiction problems?

  6. mdean says ….February 6, 2014 at 5:22 pm …i agree with you……GCHQ is in NSA pocket and vice versa. the main defense is the best offense-renounce, relinquish, don#t renew, don’t register your kids with the consulate (I know 1-2 lawyers in this position) list all the expatriating acts you can think of, pull your US assets and generally as far as you can distance yourselves f rom the land of the “fleece”… oops sorry the land of the free!!!

  7. Robert Wood at Forbes said something about CBT being too engrained into the US for them to ever give it up. I had to argue with him that the problem with CBT is that few people knew about it and that’s why it’s survived as long as it has. It in fact has not been engrained, but will soon be – the results of which will forever change what it means to be an American living abroad.

  8. Who does he know, the average Joe, who ever learned about, read about, knew anything about the concept known as citizenship-based taxation from school or afterwards? What does he think the purpose of CBT is? I think it is only to reap monies from US Citizens Abroad. Really, tell me, Robert Wood, what the purpose of the US having a different “entitled” tax policy than any other country.

  9. @Michael Jones, sorry I should have said what the UK banks and IGA mean for you as far as tax compliancy goes. Had Canada on my brain, given this is a Canadian site. Apologies.

  10. hi everyone i have a question but first heres the background to my situation.

    i was born in the US to foreign parents when they were vacationing there but since philippines at the time did not allow dual citizenship they decided that they would rather have me be an amercian citizen since i was born there. a few weeks after being born they went back home to the philippines. i lived there till i was 11 before immigrating with my family to canada. i then became a naturalized canadian citizen when i was 14. and have been living here in canada the past 17.5 years. ive only been in the us for a few weeks in my life when i went vacationing there with my family throughout the years. its only recently 2 years ago when i stumbled on a site that said US citizens must file taxes even if they live abroad. so 2 years ago i started filing even if i dont owe anything. i dont hold any particular connection to the US and consider myself canadian and i want to get rid of this troublesome situation and not encounter any future problems so i was thinking of renouncing.
    since my parents never made me into a filipino citizen (currently i heard that they now allow dual citizenship but their site is out of order ) and i was 14 when i was naturalized into a canadian does that mean i cant relinquish and must renounce?
    since i dont owe anything to the US do i just certify it in form 8854? do i even need to fill out part 5?how do i even fill part 5 of form 8854 when when i have no assets at all in the US? am i supposed to write down what i have in canada?
    also about the 5 year tax obligations… since i just started filing 2 years ago does that mean i have to wait 3 more years before i renounce?
    thanks in advance

  11. gandar.. You’re a long way along the road. You can finish the journey relatively easily .

    I presume you filed for 2011 and 2012. your US return for 2013 is due this yr.
    Backfile for 2009 and 2010.
    Renounce either before or after you file (it doesn’t matter when)

    If you renounce this year, 8854 and a partial yr. 1040 for 2014 will be due in 2015

    The 8854 goes to a different office. I forget the details . You are supposed to fill in part V. The US considers your Canadian assets to be partly theirs. Remember that this was never meant for minnows such as you. It was meant for much bigger fish who may actually. have renounced to save on taxes. Therefore, don’t sweat the details. They won’t worry about them if you don’t owe any money and neither should you worry. If your net worth is no where near 2 million, then a best guess is all they can ask for. The more minnows clog the net, the less room for the fish.

  12. so i backfile for 2009 and 2010 income tax but how do i get the foreign earned income exclusion for those years? i thought you cant claim for those if its more than 1 year? so i send year 2009 and 2010 1040 and 2555 forms (sry havent back filed before)? sry for being a bother. and thanks again for replying.

  13. gandar. backfiling is an option if you don’t owe anything. I’m not an accountant so I can’t help with the details.

  14. @Gandar, I assume if you back file you can still claim it. I can’t imagine that anyone who’s ever entered one of the OVD programs hasn’t done so, including those who recently entered the new Streamlined program which requires 3 years of back filing.

  17. @gander and others
    RE: backfiling, FEIE etc.
    When I had to backfile last year I found this guide very helpful:
    http://www.uscms.org/uscms_at_work/working_cern/taxes/ExPats%20Guide%20To%20Taxes%202009.pdf
    When backfiling 1040s and 2555 forms I inserted the legal terms mentioned in the guide (this can be done on a pdf file) and then printed all the forms and sent them off in one batch.The section you want to pay particular attention to is on page 3 “What to do if you haven’t filed and don”t owe any tax”
    I did google all the legal terms and ended up reading a lot of legalise which all seemed to support what this free tax guide suggests.
    Good luck!

  18. @Allou. The guide cited here is for 2009, and seems to be written for people who are not yet long-term expats but are considering options. Some of the information is well out of date, of course. It may be a start for some people, but it could panic them unnecessarily.

  19. @ rev susi
    Yes it is from 2009, I actually contacted the author and received the reply that most expats could do their own forms, also backfiling, if they were not too complicated – that was an honest answer from a person who is a tax professional. The information re legal terms to write on past returns was still accurate last year. I also checked that out via various online official law sites. The idea is for persons new to this horrible tax mess NOT to panic and NOT to immediately contact someone from the compliance industry. This is particularly important as there are so many online compliance services. I discovered that in my case I could pay (lots) for someone else to fill the forms, or else start doing research and try to do it myself. So my total costs for 6 years of backfiling IRS forms and Fbars for 4 persons as we were a family of duals, was approximately 600 US dollars – about 500 which I paid for an online consultation with a compliance industry professional who did not have any more knowledge than myself after I had read here at IBS, Hodgens and other websites, and approx. 100 dollars for the registered post from my country to the US.

  20. thanks for all the help everyone. my worry meter has dropped slightly.

    @allou
    thanks for the guide.
    were you backfiling for multiple years with income? when you said u sent them all in a batch, you mean mailed multiple years at the same envelope but seperated inside? did you have any problems with the irs for what you backfiled? i earned well below the income exclusion so theoretically i wouldnt owe any taxes if i can claim it. my worry is that they wont allow me to use the foreign income exclusion since its for backfiling 2009 and 2010. hopefully my worry will be unfounded.

    sorry for all the questions everyone and thank you for all the help.

  22. @gander
    1. were you backfiling for multiple years with income? YES, I filed 2007-2012
    2. when you said u sent them all in a batch, you mean mailed multiple years at the same envelope but seperated inside? YES, SENT REGISTERED POST BEFORE DEADLINE FOR 2012.
    3. did you have any problems with the irs for what you backfiled? HAVE NOT HEARD ANYTHING FROM THEM, WHICH IS APPARENTLY A GOOD SIGN.
    4. i earned well below the income exclusion so theoretically i wouldnt owe any taxes if i can claim it. my worry is that they wont allow me to use the foreign income exclusion since its for backfiling 2009 and 2010. hopefully my worry will be unfounded. THIS IS WHY I WROTE THE LEGAL REFERENCES MENTIONED IN THE PDF GUIDE AND SENT DETAILED LETTERS OF EXPLAINATIONB FOR EVERY YEAR.
    5. YOU CAN GET A LOT OF INFO NY READING HERE AT IBS AND ALSO ON THE IRS WEBSITE. YOU HAVE TO FILE THE FORMER YEARS ON FORMS FOR THE PAST YEARS. PAST YEAR FORMS CAN BE DOWNLOADED FROM THE IRS WEBSITE. YOU ALSO HAVE TO GET THE PAST YEAR CURRENCY EXCHANGE RATES – HERE YOU CAN CONTACT THE TREASURY DEPT.
    I HAD BOTH EMAIL AND TELEPHONE CONTACT WITH IRS/TREASURY AND NEVER HAD AN UNPLEASANT EXPERIENCE – SO NO REASON TO FEAR CONTACTING THEM. BUT IT TAKES A LOT OF TIOME AND ENERGY TO GET THROUGH THIS – GOOD LUCK

  24. WhatAmI,

    Yes, I was made aware of that post by badger. I went to it and commented. Mine and the author’s are the only comments there. I am waiting for Part 2.

    Thanks!

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: