Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
I think I see why The Mom was denied relinquishment (because no expatriating act occurred prior to application – dual citizenship by place of birth for the USA and by mothers citizenship for Canada?). But, what if The Mom, already being a dual citizen, voluntarily took an expatriating oath to the Queen (or whatever) subsequent to being in Canada – say way back in 1980 or so? Sorta like school kids in the USA recite the Oath of Alligiance most every week. Would not that be considered grounds for relinquishment?
@The Mom,
I’m in the same boat as you, born a dual but left as a toddler. It s totally unfair that we are forced to renounce rather than have the option to backdate a relinquishment. My parents are both Canadian, as are all my grandparents. How much more Canadian can one get than that? An accident of birth does not an American make.
This is why I refuse to wake up the sleeping bear. They have no business knowing a damn thing about me.
Ok. My relinquishing act was to swear the Oath of Citizenship, before a Justice of the Peace. The INA 349 (?) states swearing an oath of allegiance to a foreign state is an expatriating act. According to the consulate, the Dept. of State refuses this, as I was a Canadian citizen from birth. According to them, it is IMPOSSIBLE for a dual by birth to relinquish.
My argument to them, was to show them section 349, and ask where it stated that a dual could not swear it. They couldn’t but it didn’t matter. It also didn’t matter that they told me I was not a US citizen in the 90s. They checked their database for that, and there was no record. Of course, why would a consulate employee record they just flat-out lied, and denied citizenship, and proper information to someone?
Their grounds for my inability to relinquish are in keeping with their lies of the 90s. I now wonder of anyone born dual, has the ability to relinquish due to swearing for a government job, or serving in their home country’s military.
I am extremely angry right now. This is not a situation of my creation, but a circle between my parents, dept. of State, Treasury, and the IRS. Having been a law-abiding Canadian all of my life, I am beginning to see their game, and I may decide I no longer wish to play. If I choose to stop playing, it will be their loss. No one in my family will set foot in the US, and as we are in a border town, that means a pretty good lost amount, not to mention vacations.
Take a look at 7 FAM 1252 below:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120544.pdf
It looks like you can take *any* written or oral oath/affimration at any time with the intent to relinquish and make it effective that date by executing DS-4079. The rules don’t say it has to be in front of the foreign government itself. In theory, you could draw of a document declaring allegiance to a foreign country in front of two witnesses, have them sign it, (and possibly get it notarized), then use that as proof as intent to relinquish citizenship. Saves the $450 fee too.
7 FAM 1252 TAKING OATH OF ALLEGIANCE
TO A FOREIGN STATE
(CT:CON-285; 03-06-2009)
a. INA 349(a)(2) (8 U.S.C. 1481(a)(2)) provides:
“(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by
birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily
performing any of the following acts with the intention of
relinquishing United States nationality:
(2) Taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal
declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision
thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years.”
b. Section 401(b) of the Nationality Act of 1940 (54 Statutes at Large 1169;
old 8 U.S.C. 801) provided:
“A person who is a national of the United States, whether by birth or
naturalization, shall lose his nationality by:
(b) Taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal
declaration of allegiance to a foreign state.”
c. Section 2 of the Act of March 2, 1907 (34 Statutes at Large 1228),
provided:
“That any American citizen shall be deemed to have expatriated
himself … when he has taken an oath of allegiance to any foreign
state.
And provided that no American citizen shall be allowed to expatriate
himself when this country is at war.”
d. An oath of allegiance is a statement affirming one’s loyalty to a foreign
state. Such a statement may be oral or in writing; it does not have to be
under oath although in many instances it is; and it may be a simple
statement, or it may be contained in a larger document, of which the oath
is only one part. The taking of such an oath is only an expatriating act if
it is taken voluntarily after the age of 18 with the intention of
relinquishing one’s citizenship.
e. The statement of allegiance need not be in any particular form. It may
be oral or written. Its words and meaning must express actual allegiance
or fidelity to the foreign state or subdivision or to its government,
sovereign, constitution, prince, or similar concepts. However, a simple
pledge to carry out the duties of a certain job (i.e., sometimes referred to
as an oath of office), or similar statement, even though subscribed under
oath, is not potentially expatriating.
f. An oath of allegiance to a foreign state is often taken in connection with
naturalization, service in the armed forces of a foreign state, or some
other act that is also, in itself, potentially expatriating. A finding of loss
of nationality, if made, generally results from the principal act, for
example, military service, rather than the oath.
g. An oath or affirmation of allegiance to another state taken while in the
United States cannot result in loss of U.S. citizenship until the person
establishes a foreign residence. INA 351 (8 U.S.C. 1483) provides that,
except as provided in paragraphs (6) and (7) of INA 349(a), no national
of the United States can lose United States nationality while within the
United States or any of its outlying possessions, but loss of nationality
shall result from the performance within the United States of any of the
acts or the fulfillment of any of the conditions specified in this chapter of
the INA if and when the national thereafter takes up a residence outside
the United States and its outlying possessions.
@The Mom,
You have every right to be angry — and I don’t know what you (or I or anyone else) can do to channel that anger except be vocal on the absurdity / the injustice. In my mind, it should be a choice for you when you are of age whether or not to claim a right to US citizenship that you were born with but having been raised and a legitimate citizen of Canada (and you were registered by your parents as a Canadian birth abroad, right?). For those like you, for those like my developmentally delayed son born in Canada to US citizen parents who do not have the right to renounce US citizenship on his behalf, there should be a different path, a choice to claim that US citizenship or not (I never registered my son as a US citizen born abroad — he, in my mind, was and is 100% Canadian). What we have is US entrapment.
@Muskrat,
A logical person would think so. Upon renewing my Canadian passport that had expired, I got permission to attend the next Canadian Citizenship Ceremony in Calgary, which was very emotional — re-affirming the Oath of my Canadian citizenship along with 100 other New Canadians. Mine, though, was only a “commemorative certificate” that I had done so and could not be recognized as what you so logically point out.
@The Mom,
No wonder you are angry. Anger is one of the worst part about this whole mess. I hope you come here to vent whenever you feel like you can’t stand it anymore.
I’m even angry with my parents for never having looked into any of this for me a long time ago. Their silence, made me think everything was just fine all these years. In fact, they used to tell me how lucky I was having been born dual since I could go live in US without any hassles. Now they ask me why I never renounced earlier. I don’t let them know how I feel though, just bite my tongue, and then vent on IBS. Thank god for this site! I’d have been an angry mess if I had not found it.
The mom. Don’t file a blessed thing. Nothing bad will happen.
@KalC
I agree with your advice to The Mom.
@Calgary411 – Did the consular officer turn you down on the spot, or did he submit the DS-4079 and get a rejection from DC?
The Mom, WhiteKat, and calgary411, have you tried to get the Canadian government involved on your behalf? If I were in your shoes, I would at least contact my Member of Parliament and the Minister of Foreign Affairs, explain your predicaments to them, and seek their advice and help.
Thanks, AnonAnon.
Yes, I certainly have — I would lose track of counting the many ways I’ve done this. Nothing but rhetoric, I’m afraid. That does not mean that I will be quiet even if I have now successfully renounced my US citizenship.
Muskrat, I like what you found in 7 FAM 1252. However, they have left themselves an escape under f. where it says “A finding of loss of nationality, if made, generally results from the principal act, for example, military service, rather than the oath.” So it appears the US won’t necessarily accept just any oath to a foreign state, even if it were to be made in front of the Queen herself!
calgary411, I don’t understand why our Canadian government won’t help its own citizens deal with the US on this. What reasons do they give for not getting involved?
At the very least, the Canadian Ambassador to the United States should take up with the US Secretary of State the issue of Canadian citizens who acquired dual nationality with the US by accident of birth, have never exercised US citizenship, and want to be rid of it without paying the $450 fee and filing all the IRS paperwork.
Do we need to get a petition going to our Canadian government to take action on this? I would be happy to sign it
Pffft: You write a letter to a politician – you get back a form letter expressing their “concern” and “best wishes”. Back in the Day…..maybe what would be more effective is a few hundred people carrying signs marching in front of the US Embassy in Ottawa. Should create some media attention and maybe even draw in a few of the more imaginative politicians. Call it a…….Demonstration.
The sad reality is that the US personhood belongs to them, not to you, and that they can make any determination they want to about their chokehold on your person. All the laws and regulations and interpretations coalesce in the presumptive authority of a comprador official who stands before you and gets to assert whatever seems convenient. You don’t like it? Lawyer up, spend a fortune, wait for years, maybe get an inconclusive result if not a negative one. Then try to restart under conditions that may have become even worse. They own you and they know it. Lie as low as you can stand, do whatever it takes to get the exit certificate, kiss the boots of the brutes, render the ransom. Find the freedom that only a non US person can enjoy. Cease to be one of the new six million.
Thank you everyone, for your support. I tried to get help from my MP, just to swear the oath. While they did contact C&I Canada, they were not able to assist me with it. They just kept telling me to get a lawyer.
WhiteKat, don’t be angry with your parents, unless you’re sure they knew about the US’s stupid tax law all those years ago. They may not have known, the law wasn’t enforced until recently so I doubt many Americans even know about it now. Only my last passport issued in 2007 had anything in the back of it about having to file tax returns, none of the previous ones did. My mother certainly didn’t know anything about it when we moved back to the UK in 1968 and she was receiving a US widow’s pension. Nothing said about having to file ever so she never filed any. Unless they actually tell people when they leave the country, I suspect any American taking up a position outside the US is going to be in for a rude awakening.
If they did know, that’s different. They should have told you about the law so you could make up your own mind on whether to keep your US citizenship or not.
Thanks, AnonAnon (and so many others over the past year or so) for trying to help solve my family’s problem — and that which affects many others, whether they know it or not, far from it just my son.
From a comment I made on Isaac Brock some time ago:
The present US Ambassador to Canada, David Jacobson, is (in my view) only a US figurehead in Canada (wonder what the cost to the US taxpayer is to keep him here). He does not at all represent any US citizens in Canada and has never answered any of my correspondence (although he invites it on his web page). I am reminded every time I hear his name of the inane comments he made to the Ottawa press regarding “70 year-old grandmas in Canada” and that we had nothing to fear from the US.
At any rate, my son does not have the capacity to understand the concept of citizenship or the consequences of losing such. Only the citizen can renounce such citizenship, not those who represent his best interests. There can be compelling reason — but that is defined as things like “life or death”, which of course does not apply. So, I will continue with “Don’t Ask / Don’t Tell” (even if it gives no resolution).
This is not something Canada has any control over — US law for the protection of US citizenship.
I so appreciate your support, AnonAnon!
@The Mom,
The usual cop-out of all “get the advice of a competent lawyer or accountant”. Accept no responsibility; give no help; pass the buck. Next?
@medea
Phil Hodgen’s blog makes it clear (as best it can be!) on how many days us renouncers can visit the USof A post Heart act.
Scroll down this link and take a look.
http://hodgen.com/?s=days+enter+us+after+expatriation
US hypocrisy on emigration penalties is exemplified by the Jackson-Vanik amendment to the US 1974 Trade Act:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackson%E2%80%93Vanik_amendment
It was repealed just last year (2012). Here is the key section, as quoted in Wikipedia:
“To assure the continued dedication of the United States to fundamental human rights, and notwithstanding any other provision of law, on or after January 3, 1975, products from any nonmarket economy country shall not be eligible to receive nondiscriminatory treatment (normal trade relations), such country shall not participate in any program of the Government of the United States which extends credits or credit guarantees or investment guarantees, directly or indirectly, and the President of the United States shall not conclude any commercial agreement with any such country, during the period beginning with the date on which the President determines that such country –
(1) denies its citizens the right or opportunity to emigrate;
(2) imposes more than a nominal tax on emigration or on the visas or other documents required for emigration, for any purpose or cause whatsoever; or
(3) imposes more than a nominal tax, levy, fine, fee, or other charge on any citizen as a consequence of the desire of such citizen to emigrate to the country of his choice, and ending on the date on which the President determines that such country is no longer in violation of paragraph (1), (2), or (3). ”
Notice that it was written to apply only to a “nonmarket economy country”, implying that it is all right for market economy countries such as the US to impose “more than a nominal tax, levy, fine, fee, or other charge on any citizen as a consequence of the desire of such citizen to emigrate to the country of his choice.”
@Muskrat,
Sorry for the delay, I missed your earlier question. No, advised in correspondence with Calgary Consulate before my appointment, along with the information that I did not have the right to renounce citizenship on behalf of my developmentally-delayed son. I have now successfully renounced. I made many mistakes along the way by ‘not knowing’. I certainly would have been a successful relinquisher from my Canadian citizenship in 1975 had I not made those mistakes.
I have a question I would like to ask everyone. I know already that my situation is a lot less serious than many others here, but I’d like to ask your opinion regardless.
To renounce or relinquish?
I was born in Switzerland and am a dual citizen of the US and an EU country, and I’m still a student. My American parent died when I was still an adolescent, and I had never filed. I became aware of these problems when our Swiss closed down my deceased parent’s accounts. I entered the streamlined filling program (three 1040s and six FBARs) and even received a small refund, so I guess I’ve been found compliant. Soon, I’ll be filling for 2012, and I’ll have been compliant for four years.
I’ve pretty much decided that the blue passport must go. I’ve never lived there, and haven’t even visited since my parent died. My EU parent went through enough worry and misery when we were worrying about what to do last year, that I don’t feel I owe them any allegiance. I’ve applied for Swiss citizenship, which is something I should have done long ago; this is my home, I’ve never lived anywhere else and plan to stay. The process takes 2-3 years in general.
Now, what should I do? Wait until I become Swiss, stay compliant, then relinquish? Or, after filing for 2012 backfile for 2008 to have five years of compliance and be able to renounce? Or wait till I’ve filed for 2013, then see if I’m Swiss yet?
I’m lucky, I know, that I can make this decision so early in life. I have many friends in much deeper trouble, and I’ve been doing my best to help them (also by sending them here).
Thanks!
By saying you have an EU parent I assume you don’t mean Switzerland, even though you were born there. So first question is which EU country and do you have/can you get a passport from them? Second question if you have an EU nationality, did your EU parent register your birth with the appropriate authorities at the time?
I ask these because I think you may not be able to relinquish. You were born in Switzerland so the US may see you as Swiss even though you officially only get citizenship in the near future. If your birth was registered as either Swiss or EU then again they will consider you as a citizen from birth and you will not be able to relinquish.
If you renounce/relinquish this year I think you will have the necessary filing requirements dealt with by the time you get around to filing for 2013 so, providing you have an EU citizenship/passport to fall back on, I would do it as soon as you can. Waiting for the Swiss one only makes sense if it is your only other citizenship possibility to prevent you from being stateless.
The US embassy here in Switzerland deals with renunciations quite quickly so it shouldn’t take long to go through the process. I just renounced at the beginning of March and am waiting for my CLN to arrive to keep my bank happy.
@aj
I’m surprised that you’ve already heard from the IRS concerning your streamlined filing!
If you are a dual citizen you can renounce now, but you aren’t compliant for the past 5 years. I’m also not sure if you can just back file 2 more years in order to qualify or not. My guess is that if you’ve successfully streamlined filed that the safest thing would be to file for the next 2 years and then renounce.
Or if you’re sure that you wouldn’t owe any exit tax acc. to form 8854 and you’ve already filed the last 6 year of fbar’s and 3 years of 1040’s then you could also renounce tomorrow!