Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
To me, this could not be clearer:
(A) specifies people who already have citizenship and take a government job. No oath is required to make this an expatriating act.
__OR__
(B) specifies people who do NOT already have citizenship and take a government job. An oath is required to make this an expatriating act.
The wording of (4) A & B has not changed since it was written in 1952 except for the addition of “after attaining the age of eighteen years” in both sections.
And of course, as you say, the preponderance of evidence is always required to show that you have not continued to use any benefits of US citizenship after relinquishing or have behaved in any way that indicates an intention to continues as a US citizen (bank accounts, residence, etc).
Regarding 4A
I’ll chime in here with an observation…read my posting regarding the issuance of my CLN…
The OCS lawyer clearly said they would issue my CLN based on 4A… attaining the age of 18…
I had to verify what they meant because prior to 1986, the rules clearly indicated age 21 in most cases.
Furthermore I had 2 government jobs, which would be hard to prove after more than 35 years and I didn’t want to make any mistakes as I figured I was going to need to get this right the first time as I was imposing on higher authorities within the BC Government for proof.
Calgary confirmed that since I was 18 when I accepted my first government job in 1976, it would be acceptable. However, I couldn’t prove that job so readily, whereas I could prove the 1978 start date of my 2nd government employment.
Although I knew the date of my oath, and since records aren’t kept after 7 years, I relied on a letter from an official stating that the oath was a requirement of employment for all BC Government employees. Yet they processed my CLN under 4A (ie, a Canadian Citizen at the time I accepted employment, since I was naturalized at age 10)
So a few thoughts arise from this in my opinion (though I continue to state that I do not agree with their approach to retroactively applying rules started in 1986 and I’ll state one obvious reason).
By lowering the age to 18 in 1986 RETROACTIVELY, they have created a conflict, because it means that an ACT that didn’t qualify prior to 1986, suddenly IS considered an ACT of EXPATRIATION…that is like saying a minor was found guilty of being in a Casino under the age of 21 when he was 18 and now has a Crime Record…yet retroactively lowering the age to 18 makes his crime not a crime…so which is it?
@Benedict,
I have no comment about the retro-activity aspect…makes my head hurt.
So, they processed you under 4A because you were a Canadian citizen. Did the DC OCS lawyer actually insist on an oath, or did you send it in really just to have an exact start date, and not that an oath was actually required for 4A.
Yes, exactly, the 1952 wording when dual nationality was not generally recognised in the US. Now that dual nationality is recognised the situation is more fluid. I’m not saying it can’t be done, but it’s more difficult to prove an American/Canadian citizen took a job with the Canadian government with the intention of losing their American citizenship than it was back in the second half of the 20th Century. If MyKitty had worked for the Canadian government in 1960 and marched into the US embassy with her employment contract and oath it would have been accepted with no questions asked. These days people need to fill in a form to decide whether or not an expatriating act was committed with supporting evidence of their lifestyle since undertaking the act. Different eras, different attitudes.
@WhatAmI
“Did the DC OCS lawyer actually insist on an oath, or did you send it in really just to have an exact start date, and not that an oath was actually required for 4A.” /
No, he didn’t insist on an oath. As I indicated before, he said they would issue a CLN based on 4A – IF I could prove a start date as that would be the date I committed the EXPATRIATING ACT.
I had provided a blank oath at my original meeting. One that every BC Government employee is required to take. so 4A and 4B were covered.
Keep in mind that my final submission (as outlined in my Jan 11th posting) to his request was done through my Lawyer as I figured that an Affidavit provided by my lawyer would carry more weight by that point in the conflict…and it must have…(don’t dismiss the power of using legal aid to get your point across, particularly if you believe you have a strong case).
Here again is what he submitted along with a stern letter:
@All
The embassy agent just looked at the oath that I signed when I began working for the government – and stopped the interview at that point telling me that she was going to recommend that my case be denied. I didn’t even get a chance to go through the full 4079 – we stopped after the first question about did I ever sign an oath. She didn’t look at the rest of my documentation. I tried to explain that my expatriating act was my working for the Canadian Federal Government (further down the form). But the interview was over.
I only lived in the US (dual can/us citizen from birth) until I was 6 months old. I never worked there. Never voted there. Never owned property there. Don’t have any family or friends there. Always use a Canadian passport to travel to the US. Never had a US passport.
I think it might be time to talk to a lawyer …
@MyKitty,
How bizarre. If you ask me, you have the classic case for the 2nd easiest “done deal” back-dated CLN there is. The first of course is naturalizing as a Canadian citizen.
When I go for my relinquishment interview, assuming they agree to send my claim to DoS in DC, I might ask “Do you mind if I ask what you’ve written as the recommendation for my claim?”. Does anybody think that’s a bad idea?
@Mykitty
I believe that whatever she recomments is irrelevant as the person in DC who has the final say is quite likely to realize you know the law whereas the agent, does not. I think you may well just hold on a bit. Lawyers are expensive and honestly, it doesn’t seem that it is likely you’ll be denied since she is flat out wrong.
Could you indicate what year this occurred? As was said earlier, if it was in the 60’s-70’s,80’s it would appear to be a slam-dunk case.
@Tricia
I worked for the Canadian federal government in 1988.
A few other people have also suggested that I wait until I hear back from Washington and then get a lawyer involved at that point if I need to. I think that might be my decision.
It was prairie girl’s experience that helped me have the nerve to request that my case be sent to Washington, even though the US embassy employee was recommending my case be denied.
I have a question or I guess want an opinion. Moved to Canada in 2001.. Stayed a year and applied for and got PR status. As soon as I could I got citizenship in 2006. It was always my intent to relinquish my US citizenship upon taking my oath to the Queen. I have not filed US taxs since nor have I voted in any US elections. I used my canadian enhanced drivers license to drive to the US for 2 days in 2010 and I used my canadian passport to drive to the US for 2 days in 2013… Here’s what I just remembered and I’m wondering if this would disallow me from relingquishing and getting a back dated CLN.
In 2008 I got a phone call my only remaining family member was dying in the US and I had to fly there. I HAD to go. He died a week later… I may have used my US passport to gain entry.. Am I screwed?
@Carrida
Hard to say if they will use your use of the US passport to deny a back-dated relinquishment. However, since you obtained Canadian citizenship after June 2004, a back-dated CLN to 2006 does not get you off the hook for filing taxes for the previous 5 years (2008 to 2012) and FBARs for 6 years (2007 to 2012), plus tax and FBARs for 2013 (Jan 1 to the date of your US consulate interview). The only difference is the $450 fee you’d save compared to renouncing.
Carrida
“Depending on whether one speaks of the December IRS announcement of a requirement for filing back six years, or the OVDI standard of eight years, any Canadian resident who was or became a Canadian citizen prior to 2006 or 2004, respectively, has the option of telling the IRS to jump off a very tall cliff, with respect to tax filing (including FBARs, and Form 8854 with respect to expatriated Americans), as long as that resident is prepared never to cross the US border again. The IRS has no jurisdiction on Canadian soil, it can only apply to Canada to collect tax claims on its behalf, under the provisions and limitations of the Canada-US Tax Treaty. That includes Article XXVI A mentioned above and in Flaherty’s letter to me.”
Read the whole post
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/02/13/3200/comment-page-2/#comments
Read the UK FACTA agreement as well if you are at risk This may be worse case. Does your bank klnow where you were born?
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Documents/FATCA-Agreement-UK-9-12-2012.pdf
Do you plan to cross the border?
@george
I wish I knew if my credit union knows where I was born or not..I don’t think its in my best interest to ask. I would guess I’ve been with them for 8- 10 years or so.
Im so going thru the confusial stage.. I did not get citizenship PRIOR to 2006.. I got it IN 2006.
@whatami..so your saying I have to basically belly up And even tho Isee myself as strictly a canadian citizen I have to file IRS forms and give them a shopping cart of everything I own?
Now all this crap.. First time in my life I’ve been on tranquilizers! I’m so confused
@Carrida,
Yes, that’s what I said.
If your net worth is over $2 million then you also have to pay an exit tax. It’s %15, but they want to double it because they’re pissed off at the Facebook co-founder (Eduardo Saverin) who took his billions to Brazil (or Singapore?).
Whether or not you can successfully ignore it all, which is to say do nothing and never set foot in the US again, depends on the Canadian agreement to FATCA. Specifically, if you’ll be able to maintain accounts with financial institutions in Canada without them knowing you are an American Citizen. Yes, you can probably get a back-dated CLN, but the IRS defines their own date of loss of citizenship, and it will be the day of your consulate appointment. This is because they’re pissed off at people who obtained foreign citizenship but continued to use US benefits, such as travelling with a US passport, only to walk into a consulate and claim they gave up their US citizenship years ago and ask for a back-dated CLN to avoid having to file with the IRS. I realize I’ve just described you and your story exactly, but honestly, I don’t think you should have to file or give the US anything.
Some people have renounced and got their CLN with no intention of filing with the IRS. I read just today that financial institutions in other countries (Switzerland) take it a step further and are demanding proof that their (ex-)US clients are in fact caught up and clear with the IRS.
At this stage, many people are waiting to hear what happens about FATCA. There is more and more talk about the US changing from citizenship-based-taxation to resident-based-taxation, which fixes everything, that I’m tempted to wait for that to happen (but as of today it still seems a long way off to me).
Wow…
“This is because they’re pissed off at people who obtained foreign citizenship but continued to use US benefits, such as travelling with a US passport, only to walk into a consulate and claim they gave up their US citizenship years ago and ask for a back-dated CLN to avoid having to file with the IRS. I realize I’ve just described you and your story exactly, ”
Wow.. I traveled on a us passport, knowing it was wrong, as the ONLY way I could go see a dying brother.
This isn’t doing my head any good..mods please remove all of my posts
Did you use driver license for your photo id at bank?
Read the UK FACTA agreement and figure out if you are under $50,000, under $1 million.
If you really do not know what info you have given at other bank. You can consider this option.
of opening a new account at a bank or credit union that does not ask if you are a dual citizens. You can then use your driver license. No place of birth. There is various on line application for banks, check which one does not ask you if you are a dual citizen.
You can see that in UK FACTA agreement they ask you if you are no longer a US person tax wise.
From UK Facta
Where account holder information unambiguously indicates a U.S.
place of birth
, the Reporting United Kingdom Financial Institution
obtains or has previously reviewed and maintains a record of:
(1)a self-certification that the account holder is neither a U.S.
citizen nor a U.S. resident for tax purposes (which may be on an
IRS Form W-8 or other similar agreed form);
(2)a non-U.S. passport or other gov
ernment-issued identification
evidencing the account holder’s citizenship or nationality in a
country other than the United States;
and
(3)a copy of the account holder’s Certificate of Loss of Nationality
of the United States or a reasonable explanation of:
(a)the reason the account holder does not have such a
certificate despite renouncing U.S. citizenship;
or
(b)the reason the account holder did not obtain U.S.
citizenship at birth
Carrida,
You said:
Listen to your gut and please stick with us here.
@Carrida,
Please don’t leave. You aren’t in trouble for using your US passport. The scenario I was quoting is more “prolonged”: people who claimed back-dated CLNs had been renewing their passports multiple times, maybe even getting evacuated out of nasty middle-east hot zones by US embassies, etc.
If you try for a back-dated CLN, they will just look at your story to see if you behaved as if you had intended to relinquish your US citizenship. It’s a simple explanation that you had heard you had to use your US passport on that trip. If it has expired and you have not renewed it, that supports your story.
Besides saving $450, who knows, there may be some reason down the road why the back-dated CLN is an advantage. For example, it might mean something to your bank when the demand it under FATCA. Who knows.
The only downside to trying for the back-dated CLN that I can think of is Washington D.C. could disapprove it after you wait for many months. Then you’d have to make another appointment to renounce which could take months to get, and wait many months more for the CLN. If you want to get it over with quicker, removing the possibility of this delay could be worth $450 to some people.
Like you said yourself, most people here will urge you to keep reading and investigating and not to rush into anything.
@Carrida, don’t take it personal. Various views can have different meanings which may have nothing to do with you. I read the post as being something critical of US policy, not as being something critical of you.
Another reason why a relinquishment may be to your disadvantage would be if the RNC was to ever be successful in having US citizenships reinstated after people had renounced theirs. A relinquishment would disqualify you from taking advantage of this option, I would think, as it was your intention to terminate your citizenship irregardless of the current jihad on US citizens abroad.
Yes, I apologize for my hasty post. I was being summoned to go help fold laundry…
I was indeed just pointing out how all these laws are aimed at “wealthy American taxpayers who are cheating the system and leaving the tax burden on the backs of school teachers and fire-fighters”, as both Doug Shulman of the IRS and President Obama himself are fond of saying.
That’s not Carrida, or me, or anybody else here at IBS, but these ill-designed laws are scooping up the wrong people. Even worse, they are scooping up people who don’t even consider themselves as US citizens and pay higher taxes in their own country (Canada!).
@Carrida… Hang tight and breathe… we’ve all been here. Remember that nothing HAS to be resolved this very minute. You’re having your ‘OMG’ moment… just like the rest of us have had at one time. Take the time to read here, and on MapleSandbox. Your situation sounds very similar to mine, except I’ve been here since 1988, citizen since 2008. I haven’t filed taxes in the US since 1993 (I was told I didn’t have to by a tax preparer IN the US, because, you know, I didn’t LIVE in the US). I didn’t become aware of the FBARs (that’s what truly scares me) until 2011, like lots of folks here. And I didn’t sleep or eat for three days, because I thought sure I’d screwed up big time and was going to have all my assets confiscated by the IRS. But then I read as much as I could about the situation (and back then, there wasn’t a whole lot of information). So now I’m taking Minister Flaherty and the former US Ambassador’s advice… sit tight. I haven’t relinquished/renounced yet, cuz I’m ‘sitting tight’, and I don’t really want to pop up on any official radar just yet. But I’m sure I will at some appropriate time in the not-too-distant future. I know one thing… I’m a CANADIAN, not an American (despite what the passport has as a birthplace).
Thank you all.. Breathing is about ALL I can do right now. Thank gawd my doctor is sympathetic so at least I can sleep at night. I’m spending ever spare minute reading everything I can find here and at Maple. Wish there was a way to connect with people in my area for support type groups!
@Carrida
Just to make it clear. If you do eventually renounce, and have over 2 million in assets, the exit tax of 15% only applies to UNREALIZED gains, that’s any gain that you have made from your property or investments on which you have made a profit. The first $645,000 per covered expatriate is not taxed. So you could be a ‘covered’ expatriate and not owe them anything as long as your gain is not above this sum. The rest is taxed at 15% (for now).
You can of course put your assets in a non American spouse’s name, or divide assets between you and your American spouse such that no one person has more than $2,000, 000 each. Or you can gift to children, or anyone for that matter but BEFORE renouncing.
Before you chose to do anything, read the ‘Renunciation guide’ on this website.