Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
I’ll wait a few days before I contact anyone at the embassy (I need to calm down). I’m also going to try and attend the meeting in Toronto on Saturday.
I really appreciate the support of folks here at IBS.
Thank you.
@ TrueNorth
Since you were a Canadian citizen from birth, the Canadian government cannot provide any assistance in collection of US taxes under the Canada-US tax treaty. As has been stated repeatedly in letters from Flaherty and Department of Finance, and also in the Treaty itself, Canada will not collect US taxes from any Canadian citizen unless the tax debt preceded the date of their citizenship. Since you we’re a Canadian citizen at birth, you have lifetime coverage.
My understanding is that no Canadian court would enforce a US tax debt on you. In addition to the revenue rule, which widely prohibits courts from enforcing any foreign tax claim, collecting US taxes from you would be unlawful under the Canada-US tax treaty, and Treaties have the force of law and precedent. The non-collection clause of the Canada-US tax treaty would trump any attempt at collection of US taxes from you through the Canadian legal system.
As for changes to the Canada-US tax Treaty to allow collection of US taxes from Canadian citizens – its very remote. The reason is that the US will not assist in collecting any foreign taxes from any US citizen. It seems very unlikely they would change their position on that.
Changing the Canada-US tax treaty would probably require the assent of both Parliament and the US Congress. Highly unlikely. Especially in today’s political climate.
So there is no legal mechanism for the US to collect so-called “exit taxes” from you in Canada, unless you have US-based assets that could be subject to a US lien. But the US government has no power to enforce liens or garnishee orders in Canada.
I was just reading one of the comments here about the use of your US passport for travel affecting your right to relinquish your US citizenship. I became a Canadian Citizen in April of 2004, I don’t have a SSN and I’ve never lived in the US. However, I do have a US passport and have used it even after becoming a Canadian Citizen because I was told I needed to use it for travel to the US. I have been scolded by customs officials for using my Canadian passport and not bringing my US passport when I have visited the US to see family .
Will this be a problem for me to relinquish my US citizenship by becoming a Canadian intentionally?
I read about FBAR’s being filed electronically starting this year. What happens if I don’t file it until after I relinquish my US citizenship? Is that something I should be doing before the deadline? I have never filed taxes in the US because I live here in Canada all my life.
@CD888,
Using your US passport after becoming a Canadian will most likely affect your proving that you became a Canadian with THE INTENT to relinquish your U.S. Citizenship. They would just say to you, if you truly believed you were no longer an American, then why would you maintain a U.S. passport. You would probably need to renounce to apply for a CLN.
@MyKitty, I suggest you send an e-mail to the person at the embassy you dealt with including these links to the US legal code from both Cornell University and the State Department:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1481
http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality.html
where it states quite clearly:
“(a) A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality—
(1) obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after having attained the age of eighteen years; or
(3) entering, or serving in, the armed forces of a foreign state if
(A) such armed forces are engaged in hostilities against the United States, or
(B) such persons serve as a commissioned or non-commissioned officer; or
(4)
(A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or
(B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required;”
You have done both and are entitled by US law to relinquish your citizenship. If I were you – and being rightfully pissed off – I’d send copies of all the relevant documents and application form you gave the embassy straight to the State Department pointing out that you were wrongfully refused your right to relinquish and fear that the person who dealt with you may not have sent your application on to them for final assessment.
@CN888, when filling in the 4079 form add a statement to the fact that you only applied for a US passport because you were being harrassed by border control for not having one, that you wouldn’t have applied for one otherwise, but were afraid of being refused entry if you didn’t have a US passport.
If they refuse your relinquishment application (most embassies know whether you have a viable case for relinquishment or not – despite MyKitty’s unfortunate experience at Toronto), then ask to renounce there and then. They don’t need extra forms so should be able to take your Oath of Renunciation straightaway, once they’ve changed the paperwork. You would then probably need to do the back filing, but that can be done after you’ve renounced. If you feel unsure about whether the relinquishment will be accepted, when you make your appointment ask for a date in July, then you’ll have a year to get the tax side sorted rather than having to rush the FBAR’s through.
@medea
I am having a similar issue as the person you directed your answer to reguarsinf being denied for relinquish and then signing a renounce on the spot instead. Could u explain why you suggested an appointment in July so that they had enough one to file FBARs? I.e when would u have to have your taxes in order by? The following tax year ?
@Stressed, certainly. We’re now nearly into February and FBAR’s have to be filed by the 30th June each year. Depending on when you can get an appointment, it could be April, May or later before you relinquish/renounce which makes it very tight for filing your FBAR’s by the end of June. If you make an appointment in July instead, then you have until June of the next year to get the FBAR filing done. If you are lucky and can get an appointment in February/March then it’s not such a problem, but some embassies/consulates have many people applying for their renunciation/relinquishment appointments so it could be several months before there’s a free slot.
It really depends if you would need to file FBAR’s, but most people probably do as the filing limit is $10,000+ whether it’s in a single account or the combined totals of several. The $10,000 is an aggregate figure. And unlike some of the other US tax forms for which you can apply for an extension, FBAR’s have no extension dates. They MUST be filed by the 30th June each year. This may be easier to do now that they have to be filed electronically, rather than on paper, but a late May/early June renunciation/relinquishment is still tight unless you’ve sorted all the figures out before your appointment and are ready to file FBAR’s straight after.
@MedeaFleecestealer
Thank you for your advice (and support). My gut tells me to begin by emailing the agent that I spoke with at the embassy as a first step.
Her argument was that the oath that I took when I began my work with the government did not make me a Canadian Citizen (like the citizenship oath taken when you are over the age of 18 ).
I wish I could have done a better job explaining my expatriating act with her, but I was too nervous, shocked and upset!!!
@ CD888,
Use of a passport, given the circumstances, won’t necessarily override your relinquishing act. The decision is on a balance of probabilities, one factor is not necessarily determinative, and the reason a person used a US passport is important.
Several people reported here that they had used a US passport after relinquishment because they were told to, and were approved for a relinquishment-based CLN. Look for David’s report in the Directory, in Vancouver in late 2012. The consul there contacted Washington for guidance on this. This situation has been dealt with successfully at Halifax, Merida and (I think) Toronto, too.
David wrote: “I explained to the consular officer that I did this only because I believed that I was required by US law to do so until I received my CLN. … The key question was not my actual use of the US passport, but intent in using the passport (In other words, was I claiming the right of a US citizen to enter the States, or was I simply trying to comply with the law as I understood it.”
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@ Mykitty,
Two years ago, Ottawa didn’t want me to relinquish and were pretty nasty about it. I stayed calm and soft-spoken, but refused to give in that I could not relinquish. I was determined to have the reality of my life reflected on my CLN. I figured it best to go home, write copious notes on what had been said at the meeting whilst it was fresh in my mind, and figure out what to do (we were all really new at this stuff at the time). My attempt to seek help higher up at Ottawa didn’t work. So, I got out my notes and wrote a letter to another consulate about it (I really didn’t have a clue how to proceed at that time, so I tried that). I was depressed and expected I was in for a long haul getting this straightened out. Within 2 days of sending it, Ottawa had called to apologise and I had an appointment booked the other consulate.
So, it took me quite a while (over a month) to figure out how to approach my problem. But once I did, it moved fast! As you’re dealing with an objective situation – that the officer flatly, and erroneously, stated that s. (4) can’t apply – not her subjective interpretation of your case, I would think your case could be straightened out pretty quickly too.
I know how really awful it is to feel in limbo and trapped by a foreign country, wondering why are these people trying so desperately to hang on to me, like you’re in a bad movie. So, I really feel bad and angry about what happened to you. I think, based on my experience, that when you decide how you’re going to handle this, there’s a good chance it’ll get straightened out pretty quickly.
Hi, I’m a native born US Citizen currently living in Russia. I want to dump my US citizenship ASAP but I’m nowhere near being able to do it (i.e. I don’t have another citizenship). What I’m considering is plunking down a few hundred K for either Dominica or Saint Kitts and Nevis citizenship. It’s by no means a small amount of money for me but I can swing it if I have to. I was wondering if anyone else has done this and if so how did it go? Any information is appreciated.
@MyKitty, if you fulfilled 4B above then you can relinquish because you have committed an expatriating act. If you gained Canadian citizenship with the intent to lose your US one, you have committed an expatriating act. They can’t argue to the contrary nor deny you the right to relinquish. It doesn’t matter if the expatriating act didn’t make you a defacto Canadian citizen, it’s the fact that you did the act with full knowledge of the consequences.
This link may help them also as it details their responsbilities regarding assessing a potential relinquishment:
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120546.pdf
If she didn’t even try and assess your case then I believe you have strong grounds to approach the State Department directly with a complaint and an appeal to have your case assessed fairly.
@ Mykitty,
Understood. Been in a somewhat similar situation, I recall the feeling. You go in expecting a routine procedure and – pow! I found when I wasn’t getting anywhere at the consulate — we were verbally skirmishing over s. 349, which I’d brought with me, but, though I’d made mental notes whilst researching my case, it wasn’t like I’d prepared a brief or a book of authorities to go with it (this is supposed to be a routine procedure, right!) — I just said to myself, stay calm, go home, step back, make a plan …
I think you did a good job. You prepared by familiarising yourself with the law, but you had no reason to expect a battle over it. Other born-duals have relinquished under s. 4 with no problem and Toronto had had an excellent reputation for a long time. You used your knowledge of the law to stand your ground and did not give in under pressure.
@MyKitty, my mistake, I thought you’d naturalised as a Canadian, not been born dual. I think this is much more of a grey area as regards possible relinquishment. The “rules” on expatriating by swearing alligence were taken much more seriously back in the 50’s-70’s than they necessarily are now. That’s because it’s only in the last 2 or 3 decades that the US has recognised dual citizenship. That being so, a Canadian who’s also American working for the Canadian government isn’t so clear cut as a relinquishing act. Check on Prairie Girl’s case and see if it provides any guidelines you could use to be able to relinquish rather than renounce.
@pacifica777 –
ACS has four offices, covering different regions of the world. They all process their own expatriations. Some are more backlogged than others.
@Mykitty –
As others have said, that doesn’t sound like Toronto, but maybe things have changed. I hope not –
@Polypterus –
What you’re talking about is well outside the scope of what we’re discussing here. People here have citizenships that have to do with growing where they’re planted, not with legalistic scams. If you wanted to become a naturalized Russian, I could take that more seriously. This may help, or not: http://renouncecitizenship.ca/second-citizenship/
Or become stateless.
@MedeaFleecestealer
I appreciate your update. I requested that the documents be sent to Washington anyway – so I’ll just have to wait and see what happens.
@A broken man on a Halifax pier says
If my question is outside the scope of this forum that’s fine, but It never hurts to ask. However I have no clue what you mean be “legalistic scams” or why you care what citizenship I am perusing be it Russian or otherwise. If I could get Russian citizenship I would. My wife is originally Russian and my son speaks Russian. But the fact is I’m years away.
As or investment citizenships I have read most of the online information already. What I’m looking for is someone who has gone through the processes. Apparently this is the wrong forum to find such a person but I don’t think your snotty answer was in order.
@MyKitty
I feel pretty sad for you having to face this which makes no sense. Here is how I explained my case on April 2013 if this could help you. On my DS-4079 and Supplementary Statement I stated:
“After accepting employment with the Government of Canada in 1972, I had to swear an Oath of Allegiance to the Queen and Canada in front of a lawyer. Before going to swear this Oath my boss told me that by doing this that I could be breaking all links I had with the United States. I told him that this was all right because I wanted to keep this job. This was my first job.”
And on question 19 I stated: “AS stated above, I was warned by my boss that I could lose all links I had with the United States and of my own free will I decided to go and swear the Oath….see attached Statement Letter”.
Hope this can help…Good luck
@Authentic 1213
That is basically what I said on my 4079, but unfortunately, we didn’t go over that part. We got stuck at the beginning – talking about the oath.
Are you a dual citizen from birth?
@MedeaFleecestealer,
Why do you say “a Canadian who’s also American working for the Canadian government isn’t so clear cut as a relinquishing act”? That’s exactly the case that is covered by INA 349(4)(a)
I like this streamlined wording from http://travel.state.gov/content/travel/english/legal-considerations/us-citizenship-laws-policies/citizenship-and-dual-nationality.html
It’s clear to me that (a) applies to dual-citizens and does not require an oath and (b) applies to US citizens who do not have the nationality to go with the government job but swear an oath to the county to get the job.
It seems to me that INA 349 considers swearing an oath for citizenship and swearing an oath to get a job as equally expatriating acts.
@Mykitty and _everyone_,
Am I the only person on the planet who notices that 349 (4)(A) and (B) clearly indicate that an oath is not required for a Canadian to take a government job to be considered an expatriating act?
Why do the consular offices keep asking Canadians citizens for an oath?
@MyKitty
Yes I am a dual from birth. I was born in the US to Canadian parents ( border baby). Was back in Canada 3 days later to be baptised. Never lived there, never worked, voted, filed taxes or owned property there. No immediate family there. Always lived and worked in Canada. As I stated in my Supplementary Letter that “Preponderance of evidence shows that I have been a Canadian citizen only”.
If you want you could go to the hylighted sidebar to the right of this site at the beginning and go to Consulate Report Directory to the Halifax,Canada page 34 and you will see my whole story. You might find a particular item in there relating to your story that could help you. My experience at the Halifax Consulate was positive but I was well prepared with the help from everybody on this site.
I wish the same for you eventually.
@WhatAmI, I say because I believe when the “rules” were written America didn’t recognise dual nationality. Back in the early 70s when I was applying to work at the BBC I was a bit concerned that my American citizenship might be threatened due to the Beeb’s quasi governmental status. Nowadays as America recognises dual nationality, simply swearing an oath isn’t enough for dual nationals. It would be the preponderance of evidence overall which would decide the matter as far as relinquishments go. America will not usually accept that you can swear an oath of alligence to a country you’re already a citizen of so you are not committing an expatriating act in their eyes. Hence you can usually only renounce, not relinquish.
And actually (B) does require an oath. (B) “… after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required”. (A) would probably apply as it says “has or acquires”, but I’m less convinced about (B).