Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
MedeaFleecestealer, Em, thanks for those followups. Bubblebustin, I hadn’t heard anything about the US seriously discussing RBT until you mentioned it. What is your source? I highly doubt that it’s the case.
BTW, regarding asylum, since many of us regard CBT as a human rights abuse, feel we are being singled out for persecution by making us fill out more forms than a US resident has to fill, being taxed without representation and receiving no benefits for the taxes, being penalized far out of proportion to the offense, and since expats might qualify as having “membership in a particular social group”, i.e., the expat community, it could be argued that we do have grounds to seek asylum.
@Green Sesame
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2013/05/09/bulletin-from-shadow-raider-you-will-want-to-read-this/
The matter’s now been referred to the Senate Finance Committee, where they are taking submissions until January 17, 2014.
@GS
Here’s the link for more info:
http://americansabroad.org/issues/taxation/your-suggestions-tax-reform/
Green Sesame. You are of course correct. They are not seriously considering RBT. If anyone believes they are, they probably also believe in the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny.
Does anyone know if people have to show proof of address when visiting the US as a renunciant? Would I have to get a letter from both of my parents showing that they’d invited me to visit? Was thinking that a photocopy of their Christmas checks (for proof of address) along with their Christmas cards expressing looking forward to my visit should be enough. Do others agree or should I get them to send me a letter which I can show to the Dept of Homeland Security, etc.?
Happy New Year to everybody here, and let’s hope FATCA is repealed!!!
Happy New year ML1776! Be strong. The requirement for visiting is the same as for any other UK citizen.
@Kalc, thanks, I understand that to be the case but wasn’t sure if British citizens have to show proof of the US address they’d be visiting. Now for some more port 😉
Happy New Year, monalisa. Cheers.
The thought that any of us would have to jump through such hoops to visit our family in the US — how absolutely repulsive!
Happy New Year to all!
@monalisa1776
“Does anyone know if people have to show proof of address when visiting the US as a renunciant?”
No, of course not. Any address you give them will do, no need to “prove” anything.
Has anyone here renounced and then just never filed the 8854 form? (or tax forms) What happened/s?
Many thanks
John
Questions,
1. Has anyone renounced and not filled in the 8854 form? What are the risks with this?
2. Has anyone renounced and not filled in their IRD income tax year forms?
3. Can anyone confirm that to fill in the 8854 form and THUS the IRD income tax forms, i need to first get a SSN – which is a painful and long process. Has anyone filled in 8854 and IRD income tax forms without an SSN?
MANY THANKS
John
@ John
“Significant penalty imposed for not filing expatriation form
The Internal Revenue Service reminds practitioners that anyone who has expatriated or terminated his U.S. residency status must file Form 8854, Initial and Annual Expatriation Information Statement (PDF). Form 8854 must also be filed to comply with the annual information reporting requirements of IRC 6039G, if the person is subject to the alternative expatriation tax under IRC 877 or IRC 877A. A $10,000 penalty may be imposed for failure to file Form 8854 when required.
IRS is sending notices to expatriates who have not complied with the Form 8854 requirements, including the imposition of the $10,000 penalty where appropriate.
The Instructions for Form 8854 provide details about the filing requirements, related definitions and line-by-line instructions for completing the form. Failure to file or not including all the information required by the form or including incorrect information could lead to a penalty.”
Depending on where you’re living this could also impact your banking abilities as if you’re not tax compliant FATCA demands that your bank closes your accounts. Here in Switzerland the banks are already asking for proof of compliancy and I expect banks in other countries will follow suit.
@John,
Look into the ITIN instead of a SSN. It’s much easier, but I don’t know if a person who is eligible for a SSN _must_ apply for a SSN instead of an ITIN. The words are not clear to me.
@ John. I expatriated via relinquishment (Becoming a citizen of another country with the intention of losing US citizenship). I found it impossible to get an appointment to apply for a CLN at the US consulate nearest to me and thought it totally unreasonable to expect me to travel to another province when there was one 30 miles from me. After waiting more than a year the window for filing Form 8854 had passed and I decided I wasn’t going to allow them to make their problem my problem.
I decided to blow off the whole Form 8854 (my own little act of civil disobedience). My grant of Canadian citizenship proves I am no longer a US citizen. I expect the US government would argue that I am still their citizen but I would argue to the contrary. Their only possible involvement in this would be to determine my intent, which was unquestionably to lose my US citizenship. Only I can decide my intent, but I can prove it by never again doing anything which would exercise my former US citizenship such as filing a tax return, voting, filing FBAR or using a US passport.
I fully expect this to be the end of it. The most they could do would be to ban me from entering the US and I am prepared for that (unlikely) possibility. Any taxes, fines, or penalties which the IRS might attempt to levy would be incurred while a Canadian citizen. The Canadian government will not try to collect such levies on a Canadian citizen so I think I am on pretty firm ground.
I should point out that my situation is distinctly different from renouncing. In the case of a renunciation the consulate sends the whole file off to State department for a determination of loss of nationality. This undoubtedly enters one into the system and I think they notify the IRS as well. That means the IRS is looking for an 8854 and if one doesn’t show up who knows what action that might trigger. In my case there is no CLN, no corresponding IRS notification and I suppose I’m in some sort of limbo. I’m betting the IRS is so jammed up they will never figure it out. I’m simply “missing in action”.
@ Maz57,
Your post reads very well, but that sentence could be read be read two ways – so I’d just like to clarify in case someone wants to get a CLN based on their relinquishment but stay off the radar, so its clear that if they renounce or relinquish, if they apply for the CLN they will be exposing themself.
Your situation is that you have relinquished but have not applied and are not applying for a CLN. So, you’re off the radar.
If a person relinquishes and then applies for a CLN based on that relinquishment, the consulate sends their file to DoS in DC.
DoS is to send a copy of each CLN it approves to IRS. What does IRS do about it (the CLN itself does not have
contact info ora ssn number on it)? I don’t know if they do anything, but they do apparently get a copy of it.The CLN had the persons name and address. See form DS-4083.
Thanks for the correct info, True North!
@ Pacifica777. You are, of course, absolutely right and I apologize for misleading or incorrect information. Thanks for the clarification. When you appear before the consulate, whether to formally renounce or to record a prior relinquishing act, the whole package does indeed go off to DoS for the final determination. The real difference between the two is that in the case of a relinquishment the loss of US citizenship is a has already occurred whereas in the case of renunciation it happens on the spot at the consulate.
How ironic is it that not playing by their rules may well be less hazardous than trying to do everything by the book? It’s my belief that the US government is so dysfunctional that it is unlikely I’ll have a problem. If I receive any communication from the US government on this front you all will hear about it first on IBS!
As I noted, the IRS does have my name and address on the copy of the CLN they received. After about two years I have heard nothing from them. In answer to a previous question of what happens if you renounce and do not file an 8854, well for me so far nothing. I should point out that I have not traveled to the US since I renounced.
If the IRS receives a copy of a CLN, when the person did not have a SSN, how will they input that to their tax system? Will they give it an ITN, or whatever it’s called? I looked into the form to get an ITN, and they want me to send my Canadian passport, or a certified copy (Canadian gov’t just started charging for that, wonder why…hmmm), and other ID. If they just apply one, all the better. LOL
@maz57
Since you committed a relinquishing act of which the US has no knowledge won’t they just still consider you as a US citizen with all the wonderful fringe benefits thereof? An 8854 isn’t something they’re waiting for.
These days, as dual citizenship is allowed and they assume – how considerate of them – that you did not intend to relinquish, even if they would be somehow informed of your new citizenship it wouldn’t mean anything.
So I’d think you would be exposed to the hassles now heaped on US citizens abroad, such as being forced to fill out a W-9 or having your bank account closed etc.
Aside from that, if you have no assets in the US and don’t plan on traveling there it’s hard to see what they could do to you.
Anyone with more knowledge / experience care to comment?
@TrueNorth, you renounced and then just never did any paperwork? No 1040, no 8854? Had you filed US tax returns up to the time you renounced? If not, what did you answer to the question about tax compliance?
Inquiring minds want to know 🙂
@shunrata Form DS-4079 had the tax question, and I had filled out a copy before I went. They said that I was renouncing not relinquishing and did not want the DS-4079 form, so they never saw the answer. I never filed US taxes because I was a Canadian living in Canada since I was a child, I had no knowledge of US taxes or even the fact that the US still considered me a citizen.
Renunciation Form 4080 does not ask for social security number, so why go get one if you don’t need one for the form?
Form 4079 is not used for relinquishments, not renunciations.
I’m looking at the instructions for the 8854 and don’t like the choice of dates they give you for loss of nationality –
The earliest date seems to be when you officially told the State Dept of your relinquishing act, or for renunciation the day you renounced. But as far as I’m concerned I gave up my US citizenship three months before they got around to giving me an appointment (and I consider myself fortunate it didn’t take longer than that).
I did go home on the day of my citizenship ceremony and write an email to the consulate informing them, but I imagine that’s not what they’re talking about….
Should I just wait to see what it says on my CLN? Will they put in my actual relinquishment date or something else?
@Shunrata, it’s the date you went to the embassy to tell them you relinquished. The fact that you gained Canadian citizenship 3 months earlier means nothing because you still haven’t officially relinquished the American one as far as the US is concerned, even though you intended to lose your US citizenship. Only by going to the embassy and signing the relevant forms, taking Oath, etc, do you officially cease to become American. That’s the date that will be on your CLN and that’s the date you use for the 8854.
@maz57, you could well be turned back from the US border as American citizens – which you still are as far as they are concerned, having not gone through the process to get a CLN – must enter/leave the States on a US passport. And I’m sure the IRS could simply request any SSN/ITIN number from the State Department, should they choose to investigate someone further re their tax status. Plus you’ve needed a SSN for renewing your US passport for some years now so they can easily check from that end as well.
@WhatAmI, yes anyone eligible for an SSN, must apply for that and not an ITIN. From the IRS website:
“IRS issues ITINs to individuals who are required to have a U.S. taxpayer identification number but who do not have, and are not eligible to obtain a Social Security Number (SSN) from the Social Security Administration (SSA).”
Basically if you’re American you must have a SSN and not an ITIN. These days you can apply for a SSN along with the birth certificate when a child is born so nearly every American will have one, whether they know it or not I would think. Parents are unlikely to miss the opportunity to claim tax exemptions/benefits for having kids after all.