Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Nice idea, but I don’t know about signing several copies. I think I only signed one, maybe two, but wasn’t given any. You could try asking for a photocopy, but they’ll probably point out that until it has State Department approval it’s pretty worthless. Banks may accept an unapproved copy if you’re having trouble with keeping accounts as we are here in Switzerland, but I don’t think Border Control would take any notice of it without the State Department’s approval on it.
The article’s fairly old from what I can gather, sometime in 2009 as it mentions renunciation figures for that year being recent, so how the embassies/consulates deal with CLN’s has probably changed too.
Hello,
I have spent a lot of time trying to come to grips with my legal situation for tax purposes.
In a nutshell, I was a U.S. citizen, but naturalised in a European country in 1990 with the fully informed intent of relinquishing my U.S. citizenship. I was well above 18 years of age at that time.
From what I read (http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/International-Taxpayers/Expatriation-Tax), I am not liable for the Expatriation tax because I naturalised prior to 2004 and my income/assets in the years 1985 to 1989 (five years prior to naturalisation) and in 1990 were very low (far below the 124 000 annual income tax limit and 622 000 net worth limit mentioned by the IRS).
Can anyone confirm?
Further, from what I read (http://www.irs.gov/instructions/i8854/ar01.html#d0e57), I am not liable for Form 8854 because the IRS site writes that “Form 8854 is used by individuals who have expatriated on or after June 4, 2004.”
Can anyone confirm?
Am I right in thinking that I may request a CLN without having to provide any tax papers?
I mention that I have been very scrupulous in filing tax forms and paying all taxes in my new country both before and after 1990. I have never filed in the U.S. because I have no income, property or other assets in the U.S.
Thank you greatly for any assistance, opinions, suggestions, etc.
You are right. You can request a CLN without any reference to taxes. Then you will have no further obligation according to the legal opinions we have here.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2012/06/19/if-your-expatriation-date-is-before-2004-the-rules-are-different/
and
Hi all, hope everyone’s okay with all this snow and ice falling around the world.
I hope everyone has managed to enjoy time with family and friends over the holidays.
I think I have all of the documents required to prove that I relinquished my US citizenship when I took a position with the Canadian federal government. Does anyone know if I should have these documents notarized and/or should I have an affidavit of some sort?
Mykitty
I actually envy most of you on this forum. Despite your difficulties, most of you seem to have citizenship in a second country, Canada, and so are able to relinquish US citizenship.
I’m not so fortunate. I’ve been an expat in Asia for about 15 years but have never obtained a second citizenship. I don’t qualify for citizenship in most of the places I’ve lived in because I didn’t stay there long enough, didn’t have residence permit, didn’t marry a local person, and other reasons.
Now I find that US citizenship for an expat has become intolerable, and so I’m trying to find a way to become a citizen of someplace else–anyplace else!
I might qualify for citizenship by jus sanguinis — right of blood — in my deceased grandparents’ two Eastern European birth countries but don’t have their birth certificates. Have some other documents but don’t know if they will be enough proof for the authorities. Nor do I know how long the application process would take, or if I would be pressured to pay bribes for approval.
So I’ve been doing some research on statelessness. US citizens are allowed to renounce and become stateless. But statelessness is said to make life very difficult. So I wonder, if I travelled to a country that signed the 1961 UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, then went to the US consulate and renounced, what would happen to me? Would I be put in jail or sent to a refugee camp? What I would hope for is that the country would let me stay, give me a Travel Document for stateless people that would enable me to travel, and allow me back into the country when I returned. AND I would hope that they would give me a path to citizenship. The signatories of that convention apparently agreed to that.
Canada is a signatory to that convention, as are 57 other countries, but none of the countries in Asia where I prefer to live are signatories. So I would have to go to a place like Canada and renounce there.
I’ve read that it’s important to have Permanent Residency in the country before you renounce. But I don’t know how I would qualify for permanent residency in Canada or other Signatory country. I’m just a retired bloke, don’t have a job nor local spouse.
And since I have my savings in banks in Asia, that complicates things a lot, unless I were able to travel back to Asia on my Stateless Person’s Travel Document and the banks would let me keep the accounts open even though I’m stateless. Seems I might have to move all my money to Canada or whichever country I decide to renounce in before I renounce since there’s no certainty I’d be allowed to travel back to Asia, and I would have to reside in the new country for a few years at least to qualify for citizenship.
In addition to Canada, there are many countries in Europe and South America that signed the UN Convention that I might prefer to stay in for various reasons. But I really wish I could stay in Asia.
I just found out that the Philippines recently became the first SE Asian country to ratify the 1954 Statelessness Convention, though they haven’t ratified the 1961 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness. So Philippines might be a place where I could live after renouncing, even if it might not lead to citizenship.
One thing that I like about the idea of becoming temporarily stateless is I could do it now, without long waiting periods for jus sanguinis applications to be approved or rejected, without spending a lot of money and time to get certified and apostilled copies of all of my and my ancestors’ vital records, without paying a researcher/interpreter to delve into the national archives of my grandparents’ home countries to try to find their birth certificates. I really want to shed the burden of US citizenship now, not two or three years from now. I’m in my declining years and time seems more precious to me now than when I was younger.
Is this a viable idea? Sounds crazy I know. I’m supposed to be enjoying my retirement, instead the USSA has pushed me to the point where I’ve spent half of the last year researching ways to get out from under their thumb. And now I’m seriously considering turning my life topsy turvy and becoming stateless.
Becoming stateless is scary to me. But I’ve had even scarier ideas, like seeking asylum in one of the countries that the US criticizes for human rights violations, citing as reasons the many atrocious human rights violations committed by the US. The thing that gives me pause is–what happens to me if they deny me asylum?
Thanks for any thoughts, ideas or reactions.
@Green Sesame, firstly although technically you could renounce and become stateless I believe in practice few, if any, US embassies/consulates would allow you to do so. Yes, I know some have managed it, but the numbers are very low.
But have you thought about getting a World Passport?
http://www.worldservice.org/docpass.html
It may help solve the problem.
I would enquire at the relevant East European embassy/consulate as regards the possibility of getting citizenship there. It never hurts to ask and they should be able to tell you whether it would be possible or not.
Don’t forget, even if you renounce you’re still liable to any outstanding US tax that is due and you may also fall into the Exit Tax criteria.
http://renunciationguide.com/expatriation-and-tax-details-of-current-law/exit-tax-on-renunciants/
As for the asylum route I would guess you’d either be sent back to the country you came from or sent back to the US if you were refused entry.
@ Green Sesame
You have done a lot of research on this and know far more about it than I do. I am so sorry that you are being forced into this great worry when you should be enjoying your retirement. What the world needs right now is a safe haven for harassed Americans. Hang around, most Brockers are taking a holiday break, but hopefully in a few days there will be someone here who can offer some advice. You might have to comment here again just to bring attention back to this thread.
@Green Sesame, I don’t see any issue with being stateless in the Philippines (it’s my second home). It’s a great country with many nice people, if one doesn’t mind some of its minor issues. Permanent residency shouldn’t be an issue for you and citizenship might be possible too if you learn the language, culture and build some connections. Go there, become a permanent resident and check with the authorities if statelessness would be an issue. If it’s no issue for them, then renounce and let me know how I can visit you when I go there. 🙂 We are from La Union. It’s one of the safest regions and many internationals live there.
@ Green Sesame
Some helpful info
http://oldsite.nestmann.com/alternative-citizenship-and-second-passport/
@ MyKitty
I asked the same question on this site back in February of this year before I had my Relinquishing appointment on April 8th in Halifax and I now have my CLN. I had a lot of feedback and good suggestions on how to proceed. Most comments were to not have anything notarized and I didn’t. Many suggested to add a supplementary Statement Letter to bolster my DS-4079 which I did.
Good luck.
@MedeaFleecestealer, thanks for the suggestion. I think I’ve read that the World Passport is usually not accepted for entry to most countries, even if it has been accepted on occasion.
I emailed various consulates of two of the E. European countries whose nationality laws state that grandchildren of citizens can become citizens to inquire about the details. But I did not receive a single reply. I’m planning to visit one of them the next time I’m in a country that hosts one of their consulates.
I know about the exit tax and all that. I’m very far below qualifying for that. I have enough savings only for a fairly frugal retirement.
I’m curious about the details of asking for asylum. I didn’t think you did it at the port of entry. I was thinking, go there on a tourist visa, and just saunter into the appropriate ministry and make the request. I don’t know what happens after that.
@Heidi, thanks, but I’m definitely not in a position to pay a huge wad of cash to obtain a citizenship.
@SwissPinoy, thanks for your suggestion. I just did some quick checking and it does seem that Permanent Residency is fairly easy to achieve in Philippines.
As for asking the authorities how they would react to me becoming stateless, that never occurred to me. I assumed that if I told a country’s officials my plan before I did it, they would react very negatively and maybe deport me.
I’ve actually never been to the Philippines because I don’t like to fly. But I guess I can risk death and fly there. It’s better than dealing with US citizenship. Anyway I think I would probably like it, as it’s probably sort of similar to the rest of SEA.
One thing I have to find out is whether I will be able to get a UN passport for stateless people. I should ask UNHCR about that, but I think they also might react very negatively because I’m not your typical aspiring refugee.
These passports look sort of like this
http://www.nostate.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/slovakia-stateless-persons-travel-document-cover.jpg
@Green Sesame, well from the quick look I had at their website the World Passport is accepted by 150 countries which is more than for your Stateless Travel Document so might be worth looking at.
As for asylum, well which ministry would you think handles that sort of thing? I can only go by Switzerland’s laws and they no longer allow asylum seekers to make claims at their embassies/consulates. It has to be done, either by written statement or verbally, at a border crossing into Switzerland itself. Many people get in illegally though and then claim; evidently the Swiss have 4 centres where this can be done, but that’s all I know about it. You’d have to check whatever country you hope to claim at rules on this as each is different I suspect. But that’s Switzerland’s standpoint on it.
And you have to consider whether you’d want to live the life of an asylum seeker, waiting sometimes years for a decision on whether or not to allow you into the country proper. Is that how you want to spend your remaining years?
However I doubt you’d qualify as an asylum seeker. This is the criteria under the 1951 UN Convention:
“Asylum is given under the 1951 United Nations Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees. To be recognised as a refugee, you must have left your country and be unable to go back because you have a well-founded fear of persecution because of your:
race;
religion;
nationality;
political opinion; or
membership of a particular social group.”
Claiming you’re unable to go back to the States because you have to pay tax wouldn’t be regarded as persecution.
@ Green Sesame,
I can provide a little info on asylum in Canada regarding your comment.
To obtain asylum in Canada, one has to fit the definition of “Convention refugee” or “person in need of protection” as set out in s. 96 and s. 97(1) of the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act. The Convention referred to is the UN Convention on the Status of Refugees.
The Immigration and Refugee Protection Act states:
Regarding,
This wouldn’t constitute a Convention ground (s. 96) or a ground for protection (s. 97(1)) in Canada because the person himself has to be endangered.
Regarding when a person makes a refugee claim, it can be done immediately upon arrival or it can be done sur place after entering in the country (as you mentioned, one might enter on tourist visa and make the claim some time after entry). However, this latter brings credibility into question, as one who is truly in danger is expected to claim at the first available opportunity. A sur place claim can overcome this, however, in some situations, such as when a person is in Canada on a temporary resident visa and ethnic strife breaks out in their country of origin while they’re here, or if a person really didn’t know about refugee protection at the time of entry (one’s level of education and sophistication would come into play in making a credibility determination here), things like that.
newest interview with former IRS Senior Counsel Bill Yate:
http://blogs.angloinfo.com/us-tax/2013/12/30/expatriation-if-you-go-interview-with-bill-yates-former-attorney-with-the-office-of-associate-chief-counsel-international-irs/
‘If You Go, You Can’t Come Back. The Reed/Schumer Follies-Past And Proposed Anti-Expat Legislation: Interview With Bill Yates, Former IRS Attorney (International)’
December 30, 2013
…”Our focus today will be on Bill’s comments on past and present efforts to punish those who renounce U.S. Citizenship by treating them as “inadmissible” under immigration law if they try to re-enter the United States following expatriation….”…
@Green Sesame, I remembered something else you might need to check on. Iirc, because of the numbers of Americans living in other countries who wanted to renounce citizenship in Germany because the process was done faster than in their own countries, the US Embassy declared that only Americans/Green card holders resident in Germany could renounce there in future. I don’t know if that became a worldwide rule or not, but it’s worth checking with the American embassy in whichever country you’re thinking of renouncing in whether you can or not. Given the numbers in Asia that have been giving up their citizenship/green cards it may well be the rule. There’ll be no point in going to another country to renounce if you need to be a bona fide resident before you can do so.
@ MedeaFleecestealer,
Well, what i read on their website was that the World Passport has been accepted at a lot of different countries ON OCCASION. Some border guard decided to let someone in because the passport looks official. But I don’t know if it is usually accepted, I suspect it isn’t. Do you have other info?
Thanks for the info on Asylum. I would never claim persecution because I didn’t want to pay tax. That isn’t even my main reason for wanting out of US citizenship. There are lots of reasons. I think that with the fascist turn of the US in recent years, a case could be made that one was in danger there because of one’s political opinion. You know, they’re monitoring everyone 24/7 and they torture at Gitmo and rendition centers around the world. And anyone with a brain knows that they’re not after terrorists, they’re after dissidents.
But the country where I was thinking I could apply for asylum is not a signatory to any of the UN refugee conventions, so their criteria might well be different. I just thought it could be good propaganda for them to have a US citizen given asylum there because of US human rights abuses (which probably exceed those of practically any country in history). Since they are always being accused by the US of these abuses, this would be a nice rejoinder. That might be a reason for them to approve me. It’s a country I would love to live in. But asylum is far down my list of options anyway, I prefer to get out via less scary means.
Are you quite sure that the US usually won’t let you renounce if you don’t have another citizenship? I thought that they have to let you, because it’s the law.
@ pacifica777,
Thanks for that info about asylum. As I mentioned in my previous post, criteria could well differ in the country I had in mind, because they are not a signatory to the UN Convention so could make their own rules.
@Green Sesame, no, I’m not completely sure, but I do know that some embassies/consulates seem to have refused to allow it because it would leave a person stateless. The best thing to do is make sure you know US law/regulations on the subject of renunciation and then you can confront them with the facts should they try and refuse to let you renounce and become stateless. The problem is many embassies have never had to deal with a renunciation before and don’t know exactly what’s allowed.
I did find a couple of pieces on Wikipedia that may help:
“The United States, which is not a signatory to the 1954 Convention on the Status of Stateless Persons nor the 1961 Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness, is one of a small number of countries which will allow its citizens to renounce their citizenship even if they do not hold any other. The Foreign Affairs Manual instructs State Department employees to make it clear to Americans who will become stateless after renunciation that they may face extreme difficulties (including deportation back to the United States) following their renunciation, but instructs employees to afford such persons their right to give up citizenship.[47] Former Americans who have voluntarily made themselves stateless as a form of political protest include Garry Davis, Thomas Jolley, Joel Slater, and most recently Mike Gogulski.[48][49][50]”
So any problems with embassy staff refer them to the State Department’s Foreign Affairs Manual. Indeed read up on the relevant sections yourself so you know exactly what your rights are.
And also this:
“In March 2012, the International Stateless Persons Organisation (ISPO),[51] an International non-governmental organization (INGO) was founded by HH Prince Dr. Fernando Macolor Cruz, tribal prince and instructor of History and Political Science at the Palawan State University in the Philippines. It aims to provide institutional representation to stateless persons throughout the world through a network of volunteer human rights law practitioners who act as Country Representatives.”
It may be worth getting in touch with them to see if there is a representative near your location who you could talk with. Here’s their website:
http://ispo.bravesites.com/about
@ Green Sesame
There is a U.S. political fugitive (journalist, former NSA worker, pre-9/11)) living in Mexico who managed to escape the USA by means of a WSA (World Service Authority) passport. His name is Jim Stone. Edward Snowden was also issued one of these passports. You’ll have to decide for yourself if this is valid and useful.
http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/flight.html
http://www.jimstonefreelance.com/maincore.html
http://www.dailypaul.com/292061/world-service-authority-issues-world-passport-to-edward-snowden
@Green Sesame
Why don’t you see what happens over the next little while with tax reform in the US? The US is actually discussing whether it will adopt RBT. Have you thought about providing input?
What do people here think of the chances that the US will go for RBT? That would be wonderful but to me seems extremely unlikely. On the contrary, it seems more like they’ll push through the “Ex-Patriot Act”. Can anyone point to any sign at all that they are considering such a thing?
@shunrata
As much of a long-shot as many people think its is, there’s never been a better time for our voices to be heard than there is now. If the record breaking numbers of people renouncing don’t draw attention to the crisis then nothing will. That said, I know it’s all too possible that nothing will.
http://americansabroad.org/issues/taxation/your-suggestions-tax-reform/