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Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two

Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.

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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too  large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One

 

10,433 thoughts on “Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two”

  1. @ MyKitty,

    The consulate won’t ask for proof of taxes or even ask about taxes. You’ll probably see a clerk for about 5-10 minutes to go over your documents, wait in the waiting area for a while, then you’ll see a vice consul who has looked over your file before meeting you. You see the consul for about 10 minutes. The consulate’s main concern is that your papers are in order and that you are aware of the consequences of what you’re doing (form DS-4081).

    So far, Toronto has been using the form DS-4079 in renunciations. Not all consulates use it for renunciations – it’s really aimed at relinquishments. There’s a question on the 4079 asking if you file US taxes. It’s one of several questions they use to determine one’s ties to the US – which is important in determining a relinquishment if a person actually relinquished when they say they did, but doesn’t impact on a renunciation occurring.

    Toronto does a lot of expatriations and has a good reputation from the Brockers who have gone it. You can read their experiences in the Consulate Report Directory, which has 20 pages on Toronto, also on page 5 are links to the Dept of State forms, such as the 4079 and 4081.

    A person does not need to be tax compliant at the time of renunciation. They have until June 15th of the year following their renunciation to certify (on their exit tax form, 8854, which is June 15th of the year following the renunciation) that they are tax compliant for the five previous years. If they don’t do this, that can have IRS consequences but the citizenship loss remains valid as of the day of renunciation.

  2. My kitty. You don’t really need to change a thing, Why bother?

    On the other hand, if you feel you must renounce, you can do so without reference to taxes. After that you will be advised to ‘ contact’ the IRS. Why bother? They won’t have time for you.

    What Am I. CRA isn’t going to ask where you were born. You aren’t going to become a criminal. We all need to take a Valium and use some common sense.

  3. @pacifica777

    Thank you for your response. To make things a little more complicated, I did work for the Canadian federal government for one year in 1989 (question 11 on DS-4079). I also worked for an Ontario municipal government for 8.5 years. I didn’t realize I was a US citizen, so I didn’t realize that I might be relinquishing my citizenship. Had I realized it, then I would have followed up to make it official.

    Is there any way I can use my past employment with the federal government/municipal government as a method of relinquishing my citizenship? Or would renouncing be more “official” and easier/cleaner/quicker to do?

  4. My guess is that the banks in order to make their customers as “comfortable as possible”, will set the bar as low as they possibly can under under the terms of an IGA in order to allow their banking customers to remain undetected as USP’s, such as self-certification or allowing them to use non-incriminating identification. The problems will come when the US realizes a few USP’s are slipping through the cracks, which is surely going to happen regardless of how high they eventually set the bar.

  5. @WhatAmI, quite possibly, but that is in the future. And I still say, how will they know? Are they going to request to see copies of every client’s passport or birth certificate? Stoneman opened his accounts as a Canadian, why would they even think otherwise and question him over it? I very much doubt that the Swiss banks have been sending their forms to all their clients, only those they suspect of having an American connection and I can’t see Canadian banks being any different. The IRS/Treasury doesn’t know he exists either because he doesn’t have an SSN.

    @Stoneman and Mykitty, the problem you both have is that if you want to renounce you may have to apply for an SSN first which is a painful and long process to get from my understanding before you can renounce and do the tax side of things. Has anyone here renounced without having a SSN? I would wait and see what Canada agrees to, if anything, and then decide what you want to do. You’re both off the radar for the moment so there’s no need to rush into this.

  6. @Mykitty

    Here is what the Overseas Citizens Services Lawyer expects from you to prove govt employment…

    “Please also advise him that we would be more than happy to treat this case as falling within the purview of 349(a)(4)(A) were he to provide us with evidence indicating when he began his employment as a Canadian civil servant. That date is the date on which Mr. ********** committed a statutory act of expatriation. “

  7. You may self certify that you have done your taxes to the banks. As long as you stay in Canada, they probably will not prosecute you. I think the revenue rule protects you in Canadian courts. Study the rules from the UK agreement and try to figure how to beat the system.
    REad the whole agreement look at account numbers
    http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/tax-policy/treaties/Documents/FATCA-Agreement-UK-9-12-2012.pdf
    If the information indicates that the entity account holder is a
    U.S.
    Person, the Reporting United Kingdom Financial Institution must
    treat the account as a U.S. Reportabl
    e Account unless it obtains a self-
    certification from the account holder (which may be on an IRS Form
    W-8 or W-9, or a similar agreed form), or reasonably determines
    based on information in its possession or that is publicly available,
    that the account holder is not a Specified U.S. Person.

  8. @MedeaFleecestealer and @KalC

    I have some personal reasons why I don’t want to be a US citizen. I’m also currently living off of the money in my bank accounts, so I don’t want to risk the contents of those accounts.

    I’m still gathering information. Thanks to The Isaac Brock Society, I have a lot more knowledge than I did yesterday at this time!!!

  11. @MyKitty,

    SB posted on OutragedCanadian’s blog
    SB on December 4, 2012 at 10:31 pm said:

    I just received my CLN based on the oath I took upon working for the federal government in the 1980′s. My supervisor at the time advised me that the oath of allegiance to Canada could potentially impact my U.S. citizenship. I was therefore aware that I was choosing Canadian citizenship and relinquishing my right to U.S. citizenship. When I applied for the CLN I was required to provide proof of the oath, a copy of which I was able to request through the Library and Archives Canada. I hope you were fortunate to have a supervisor who also discussed with you the implications of taking the oath. All the best!

    Here’s article s. 349(a)(4) of the Immigration and Nationalities Act.

    “A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality-
    ….
    (4) (A) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years if he has or acquires the nationality of such foreign state; or

    (B) accepting, serving in, or performing the duties of any office, post, or employment under the government of a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof, after attaining the age of eighteen years for which office, post, or employment an oath, affirmation, or declaration of allegiance is required;
    …

    Good that your still gathering information There’s no big rush (you can usually get an appointment in Toronto within a couple of weeks to six weeks — they usually make around 172 available per month most momths) and there’s a lot to mull over as a everyone’s personal situation and risk tolerance (or even analysis of risk) is a bit different.

  14. Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act protest: Two thirds of US expats want to give up citizenship

    Dubai: Two-thirds of Americans who live outside the US. are tempted to renounce their US citizenship in response to the controversial Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA), according to a recent survey by deVere Group, an independent financial advisory firm.

    In a global poll, deVere Group asked more than 400 of its American expatriate clients: “Would you consider voluntarily relinquishing your US citizenship due to the impact of FATCA?”

    Cumulatively, 68 per cent of respondents answered that they had ‘actively considered it’, ‘are thinking about it,’ or ‘have explored the options of it.’ while 17 per cent said they would not consider relinquishing their US citizenship and 15 per cent did not know.

  15. McClatchyDC ‏@McClatchyDC 7h

    New tax law driving expats to renounce U.S. citizenship http://bit.ly/1aUhAeJ

    my tweet back to them…

    @McClatchyDC Good article, but #FATCA, the worst law most Americans know nothing about is 3.5 years old! The collateral damage is mounting!

  16. Thanks, Just Me.

    Good write-up about what this is. Thanks, Ruth Freeborn!

    Some good comments; some of the usual ‘good riddance’ ones.

  17. @pacifica, re;
    “So far, Toronto has been using the form DS-4079 in renunciations. Not all consulates use it for renunciations – it’s really aimed at relinquishments. There’s a question on the 4079 asking if you file US taxes. It’s one of several questions they use to determine one’s ties to the US – which is important in determining a relinquishment if a person actually relinquished when they say they did, but doesn’t impact on a renunciation occurring.”

    I want to be able to correctly explain to someone who is going to relinquish how to think about the answer to that question re filing US taxes. As far as I understand, if for example they performed their relinquishing act in late 2012, they still had to file the 2012 return and other financial reporting forms for 2012 (ex. 3520 and FBAR)- which were due in 2013. And, if I understand correctly, they will have to file a return in 2014 and financial reporting forms for the period in 2013 up to the day of their relinquishment. Is this an accurate description?

  19. @ Badger,

    Yes, you’re both correct. For further reference, your friend can find this at 26 USC, s. 877(A)(g)(4)(B). S. 877(A) is long with tons of sub-articles. The relevant sub is towards the bottom of the page. A quick way to get to it is do a control-F and search for the words “Relinquishment of Citizenship.”

  20. @Medea, thank you. Form 4079 is confusing to explain, and though I have repeatedly read about it here, I had to make sure I was describing the situation correctly. It is the end of the year, and if they are turned away, that will be one more year of US status captivity.

    I hope that not too many have been turned away for lack of remaining appointment spaces at the US consulates and embassies around the globe – for example, I see for example, that all December appointment spaces are booked for at least one consulate here.

  21. @Badger, no worries. If they’re up-to-date with filing then it should be pretty easy once they relinquish. If they’re not then of course you have to do several years of back filing as well which is what I had to do when I renounced, having never filed a US return before. But mine were only FBAR’s in the end because I have no income so didn’t need all the other gumph. Still to do the final FBAR and 8854 form and that hopefully will be it for me.

    Form 4079 is mostly used to determine whether people have relinquished by gauging how much internaction they still have with the States, but as it’s a recent relinquishment the tax issue isn’t so important as an indicator imho. After all, you’re supposed to have been filing so it should be expected even for a relinquishment that you’ve been doing so, especially as you have to be tax compliant to get totally free.

  22. File with the IRS or Renounce Your Citizenship?

    NEW YORK (MainStreet) — More and more Americans living abroad are considering renouncing their citizenship rather than file financial account information with the IRS. In a survey of 400 expatriate clients by the deVere Group, more than two thirds (68%) said they had ‘actively considered,’ ‘are thinking about,’ or ‘have explored the options of ‘ relinquishing their citizenship rather than comply with the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA). Only 17% said they would not consider giving up their U.S. citizenship, and 15% did not know.

  24. Question regarding relinquishing: I became a Canadian citizen in 1994. At the time I didn’t give much thought to officially relinquishing my US citizenship. My fear now is that I may have, after 1994, travelled using my US passport. I’m hoping I didn’t use it after 2004 so that I can claim a relinquishing date prior to 2004. My questions are: 1. What are the chances of them cross-referencing relinquish date with travel history? And 2. Does anyone know of a way to find out the last time I used my passport?

    Thanks!

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