Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
Congratulations on successfully claiming your relinquishment, shunrata.
Pacifica will pick up on your comment here and any other information you may wish to add and copy it into the Consulate Report Directory. Thanks for your contribution, which will help others. Best to you!
Super to hear everything went smoothly! That would be great to get your report. You can just post it as a comment on-line, or by e-mail to pacifica@isaacbrocksociety.ca, and there’s no standard format whatsoever. Thanks — and Congratulations!
@filing and renouncing
Have posted my experiences under the Fatca dicussion board -sorry. Administrator:please move that post to this forum if you can. Thank you again!
Below is ALLOU’S report on his/her experiences. http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/fatca/comment-page-48/#comment-602696 [Sorry, I can’t move the comment, so I pasted it here — or you could copy-and-paste it here and I’ll delete this. Glad it’s gone well. Thanks for sharing!]
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“1. April = shock discovery of US reporting obligations.
2.April and May = many hours reading info here at IBS, at IRS website and phone calls for extra info from IRS.
3.May and June=self-filed 6 years of current and back tax and Fbar forms for 4 persons in my dual family, including letters of explaination for all years. Done via QD as advised by IRS telephone helpline who advised “just file current and 6 years back.”
4.July-October = all 4 duals renounced. First renunciant received CLN in Aug.
5. Have travelled to US on EU passport with Esta visa with absolutely no problems or any questions. Have non- US birthplace.
6.So far great relief at having done this tinged with a bit of sadness.
IMHO US is good to visit, not to live in. US are fine people, but saddled with many major issues. Am glad not longer part of that system.
Many thank you to all IBS person who have helped and advised me, good luck to all here trying to get through these challenges.”
@allou
Between steps #3 and #4 did you make any attempts to determine whether the IRS accepted the returns as filed? This is somewhat difficult because unlike, say, Canada’s CRA, the IRS does not send anything back to the filer saying their return was accepted as is, or amended in the specified manner. Hence the question.
@tdott, actually, it is very easy to check if the IRS accepted the returns as filed. One can check the status here:
http://www.irs.gov/Refunds/Where%27s-My-Refund-It%27s-Quick,-Easy,-and-Secure.
If one owed no tax, then enter “1” for the refund amount.
Mine says: “Your tax return is still being processed”. This means that my tax returns haven’t been processed yet. When one e-files, it is accepted within a week. When one snail mails in the forms, then, well, maybe it taxes years or the IRS never has the time to look at it.
One of my children just told me that Chip Wilson, founder of mega successful Lululemon, renounced his US citizenship a year or two ago. A quick google reveals nothing but perhaps some Brockers might be able to unearth something. If so, that’s a pretty big Myth there
@tdott, confirmation of receipt of returns
No, we did nothing. However about 6 weeks after filing one person received a notice from the IRS stating that the name and SS nr did not match. Turned out this person had written one letter in the name unclearly. So we deduced that the returns had been processed. The person corrected the name info and returned it to IRS. That was 2 months ago, no further contact. So we assume they have all been processed without further comment. Now just waiting for the rest of the CLNs. I will say, the IRS telephone persons were polite and helpful and they did not mention streamlined. There are probably millions of persons both in and outside the US that have the same issues. It may well be that for uncomplicated returns it is best to just do it via QD and avoid if possible any expenditures on “tax experts”. We filed on paper and sent returns, fbars, letters of explaination via registered post.
FYI:
Just an important heads up for those who can see their way clear to renounce/relinquish, and who don’t want to spend another tax year as an involuntary US taxable indentured person: Only 19 online appointment slots were created in December for US citizen services by the US consulate in Toronto. A few are still available in the end of November.
Hi Benedict Arnold Be Me. I have been preparing my relinquishment case and have spent some time rereading your past posts. Would you be open to directly corresponding with me regarding my preponderance of evidence? If you are, perhaps the Site Admin can put us in touch.
Thank you. – Geri
Yes…I am still dealing with issues and my case has not been easy, and my lawyer is now involved….what I have learned I am willing to share with you…Calgary411 is welcome to share my email with you…
…and I’ll do just that right now.
Calgary411 – Benedict Arnold be me and I will need to “talk” before my consulate meeting in early Feb. Could you please pass my email on to him as well?
Hello all. I have been to the embassy today (in an Asia country) and attended the first renunciation appointment. They told me to think it through and book the second appointment a month later.
Now, I noticed from the documents that they give me saying that I will have to file 8854 and 1040+1040NR for the year of renunciation. Now here comes the problem.
I was born in the US and only stayed for a few months or so as a baby. After that, I have never entered US.
So, I have never filed a US tax. More importantly, I don’t even have a SSN number to file!
Would you guys think I should file the 8854 with 5 years of 1040, together with a ITIN number application?
It sounds kind of silly to me, to apply for a number and file the last tax return.
And, it somehow feels like I am putting myself on their radar.
Have you guys heard any story that the exit filing is the first filling in life? or cases without SSN?
Also, can you say that you are tax compliance if you are filing 5 years of tax in one go!?
(Well, I am sure after all the calculation I need to pay $0 because of below the foreign exempt)
This whole thing is so stressful. I just want to close all the loopholes in my life, so that when later, if there is a day when I need to travel to US for 3 days business trip, I won’t be flagged in the border guards computer.
@OffRadar
I empathize, as someone born in USA but who left as a baby, and like yourself, never had a SSN. However, I’ve not gone through the ‘renunciate’, followed by ‘catch up on filings’ process that you are facing, so don’t have any experiences to share. I can tell you that, some people renounce without catching up on filing, so that they can get the magical CLN, and then they never travel to the US again. It’s not an approach that appeals to me, but everyone;s situation, ability to predict the future, and risk tolerance level vary.
I am sure some others here will have helpful advice, and more concrete experiences to share.
Good luck navigating your way onto the U.S. radar, and then hopefully back off the radar forever!
@OffRadar,
You are what is considered an “Accidental American” and one of the main reasons this site exists. It is absurd, but the US practices Citizenship-Based Taxation law. You are a US citizen by virtue of being born in the US. I believe you must get a SSN in order to be able to file and then further state on the 8854 that you have complied, as they require. Yes, yours is, unfortunately, a very common US immoral, absurd story here. Foreign financial institutions, unless the countries we live in and are citizens of say NO to FATCA, become arms of the IRS in their search for those with US indicia.
We here understand. Ask your questions and stick around for support. Also, be involved in fighting this in your own country.
Here is ones of the best (easiest to understand) explanations I’ve read of why it is important to file the final Form 8854: http://hodgen.com/chapter-4-are-you-a-covered-expatriate/
and if you are deemed a ‘Covered Expatriate’: http://hodgen.com/chapter-4-are-you-a-covered-expatriate/
Chapter 3: http://hodgen.com/chapter-3-paperwork-for-expatriates-and-covered-expatriates/ gives the paperwork required for “Expatriates” (someone who expatriates by renunciation or claiming relinquishment) and “Covered Expatriates” (what none of should aspire for and which will trap so many).
@OffRadar, There are many people in your situation. I met one like that at the embassy when I was renouncing.
I’d recommend that you do whatever paperwork is required of you to get that off of your back. One never knows what will happen in the future and thus it is best to be on the legal side of things.
@OffRadar,
I agree with SwissPinoy. Having come this far (i.e. having renounced), you may as well finish the job off right, and be done once and for all. As far as the SSN is concerned, I don’t think you can file without one. My understanding of the process to acquire a SSN involves you submitting documentation to prove your life outside of US (for example school records from grade school on up).
@OffRadar,
Getting a SSN is very difficult. Lots of paper work. My friend (and her accountant) didn’t know about ITINs and had to submit marriage licenses, utility bills, etc, going back many years to get a SSN to file in the Streamlined Procedure.
From the Streamlined Procedure instructions: http://www.irs.gov/uac/Instructions-for-New-Streamlined-Filing-Compliance-Procedures-for-Non-Resident-Non-Filer-US-Taxpayers
However, the ITIN application form states:
That’s as far as I got. I don’t know if one really has to get a SSN instead of a ITIN just because they can. They statement above may simply intend tel notify US citizens that they sould get a SSN instead.
@OffRadar, a question for you. Have you ever had a US passport in your life and did you have another nationality from birth? If so, then there’s another option to consider. No passport, no SSN, no tax filing. Why start now? You’re not in the tax system and it doesn’t matter if you’re not compliant, you don’t have to worry about covered expatriate status because you’re exempt. Yes, exempt:
“If you received citizenship of both the U.S. and some other country at birth, if you continue to hold the citizenship of that country, if you are taxed as a resident of that country, AND if you have been a resident of the U.S. for no more than 10 of the 15 years prior to renouncing U.S. citizenship, you’re exempted from the exit tax provision. (A minor who relinquishes U.S. citizenship before age 18.5 and did not reside in the U.S. for more than 10 years is also exempted).”
http://web.archive.org/web/20120719031309/http://renunciationguide.com/Exit-Tax-on-Renunciants.html
So renounce, don’t bother to file and forget that you were ever born a US citizen. Carry a copy of your CLN with you in case you’re asked about your American birthplace on your foreign passport. Then enjoy your visit with a clear heart and conscience.
Test post because the previous one hasn’t appeared – at least I can’t see it!
So, if you don’t or can’t produce school records and all of the other documentation to receive a SSN (like parent’s birth certificates, marriage certificates, divorce certificates, re-marriage certificates and then perhaps your marriage certificates, divorce certificates, re-marriage certificates), which you really don’t want in the first place, but have to have because the ITIN application is not for persons who are eligible to get a SSN, US citizens which the US law says we are, does any of this make sense? Just deny our applications for SSN’s, telling us that we cannot prove that we are eligible for US citizenship — which is really perhaps what it should be in the first place:
A CHOICE and if we want to claim US citizenship then we go through the hoops. Our choice is simple. If we have to jump through hoops to PROVE that we are eligible for US citizenship, forget it — just give us a piece of paper that says we could not prove we are eligible for US citizenship — so we are THEREFORE not US citizens.
Let the burden of proof be on the USA.
It’s all a sit-com.
Medea,
I just went through spam and found one, but I see Pacifica beat me to it and released it from spam. Interestingly, if it is the one, the time is a minute after your test one. And, now I see that it is your re-post that went to spam. Perhaps your previous was in spam and somehow got deleted in spam that was deleted?? Wonder why your last one (or your first one) went to spam in the first place. Gremlins.
@calgary411
Yes, you can imagine my friend’s reaction when, having been forced to file taxes, FBARs, etc, they were at first denied a SSN with their first application attempt.
Good advice from Medea, OffRadar. Just understand very well the procedure so that you are absolutely comfortable with your decision as we can’t give professional advice. You and so many others should not be caught up in this absurdity!