Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part Two
Ask your questions about Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship and Certificates of Loss of Nationality.
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NB: This discussion is a continuation of an older discussion that became too large for our software to handle well. See Renunciation and Relinquishment of United States Citizenship: Discussion thread (Ask your questions) Part One
@Geri, @WhatAmI
Here is where I have a slightly different opinion then @WhatAmI..(only because it is unclear)…I am not sure the 1978 rule @WhatAmI is referring to even applies…(first, because “I believe” it was meant for people who NATURALIZED into US citizenship, and secondly, because it doesn’t apply to a person who EXPATRIATED, which would include Expatriation by a parent..)…My understanding is the rule that a parent could NOT expatriate a MINOR didn’t come into effect until 1986 INA (there is a copy of a letter posted by Ladybug on IBS dated 1980 that clearly shows this “parent rule” in effect still)…therefore, prior to 1986, the INA 1952 rule included the recognition of a Parent expatriating a child, however the child retained the right to claim US citizenship by taking the oath prior to age 22 or by returning to the US to take up permanent residency by age 25…However the rule of 1978 appears to muddy the waters on this age 25 matter…yet I still stand by the argument that it wasn’t directed at EXPATRIATION cases…
I was hoping to have my CLN by now so I could help @Geri and @WhatAmI and @Dianne with a clearer determination, but so far am still waiting….so, I can’t confirm any of the above as correct as of yet…
@Geri
I was born in the US and moved to Canada at 12 with my Canadian born mother. I was not registered as a Canadian birth abroad before I was 2, so in 1996 I naturalized as a Canadian. In 2009, Canada changed its Citizenship Act making many persons born abroad Canadians at birth, myself included. I haven’t yet applied for the certificate, but Tdott has. Being a Canadian at birth exempts me from the exit tax, provided I meet the threshold and certify 5 years of tax compliance.
This link details the changes to Canada’s Citizenship Act and who qualifies to be considered a Canadian at birth:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules_2009.asp
@Benedict
We’ve talked about so many ideas and laws, and I suspect you’ve learned a lot that you didn’t know at the time of your interview. I’ve lost track of what you included at the time in your claim. Was it just the Standford exchange and the call to the Vancouver consulate?
@WhatAmI, if you feel you must put your case for a relinquishment, then I’d expand on the basic 12 and 13 questions from the form. Tell them that you’ve voted in Canadian elections since ???? and never in a US one, etc. Also tell them that you consider yourself Canadian only and that is why you want your CLN.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/97025.pdf
@Medea
Oh yes, my letter has all that and more. I even list the pre-1978 INA sections (the 1952 laws) that applied to me at the time. At one time I even had a paragraph about how both my parents and 3 uncles all served in the Canadian armed forces during WWII, but I removed that.
I am a Canadian at birth and am exempt from exit tax. If I relinquish and get a back dated CLN to 1976 am I still required to file 5 years of tax returns to retain my uncovered status?
@WhatAmI, don’t overdo things. Keep it short and simple emphasising your life in Canada and lack of any in America.
@Dianne, no. The consenus is that you need do nothing on the tax side.
http://isaacbrocksociety.ca/2011/12/16/did-you-relinquish-before-february-6-1995-then-you-did-not-have-to-inform-the-state-department/
@Medea
Since it seems that so many people (including immigration lawyers) only go by current laws, it seems like a good idea to quote the old laws in effect at the time. For example, I voted prior to 1978 and that was an expatriating act at the time. Are you saying you think giving the words of the then current INA 349 and INA 350 is over-doing it?
Just being hopeful – having a Canadian parent register one as a Canadian citizen through birth abroad does not constitute relinquishment? I just really, really, really wish I could not be considered a USP.
@usxcanada – still info gathering only. I am pragmatic but I wonder how many people, including patriotic US homelanders, would be urging pragmatism if Iran was tracking down all of its citizens, or Eritrea for that matter:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/05/29/canada-expelling-eritrean-diplomat-for-using-consulate-to-shake-down-citizens-for-national-defence/
The way this is going , I feel exactly that Canadian citizens, amongst many others, are being shaken down by the US.
@WhatAmI, no, that’s probably a good point to have. But remember, you are just informing the US that you’re not an American and haven’t been sfor a long time. I don’t know how long your letter is, but one A4/Foolscap sheet should be ample to expand on the DS-4079 form. As you were born in the US, I’m not sure this is going to work, but hope so for your sake.
@DM56, not in itself, no. As WhatAmI says, it depends on when you were born and what laws were in force at the time, time spent in the US if any, whether you’ve had a US passport, etc.
@Medea – thanks. I was just coming back to say that that was stupid on my part as I did have a US passport as a teenager so that takes care of that.
I don’t know how to use this board well – is there a way to edit or delete one’s own posts?
@DM56, No, there isn’t, but don’t worry about it. Renouncement is the way forward for you so concentrate on that.
@OneFlew, I believe ‘Watcher’ is correct in that those of us who renounced in 2013 will still have to file a partial-year FBAR including all relevant information up to and including the renouncement date. But What I can’t understand is how to make this clear on the online FBAR form which will have to be filed electronically next year.
There doesn’t seem to be any where on the electronic FBAR form to denote that it would only be a partial year one.
What I can’t determine is whether I would need to perhaps write to Fin Cen by snail mail, explaining that I’d renounced and that the 2013 FBAR was My final one and only reporting on accounts and maximum balances through my renunciation day. I am worried though that bringing this to their attention might raise the risks of them assessing fines for my delinquent FBARs all filed back in 2011; whose to say they wouldn’t try to hit me with $10,000 fines for each of the still open years (2007-09???)
Would I need to send them a copy of My CLN too or would it probably actually be safer and more expediant just to file my final FBAR for 2013 without even mentioning my renounciation. I’d obviously prefer to be able to file it myself without having to pay an additional fee of approx $500 to my accountant, especially as she’ll be charging me at least $4000 to file My final 1040/1040-NR, 8938, and 8854…but it’s even more important with the stakes so high to ensure things are filed completely correctly so I can make a clean break.
MonaLisa You were so brave to renounce-I know it must have been difficult. Don’t backslide into worrying mode. Fin Cen have better things to do than care about you. Petros and others feel that once you have a CLN, there is no further obligation re FBARs.
In other words there is no need to file a partial year fbar. If you did, I imagine the response would be ‘WTF are we supposed to do with this?’ Save your time and money.
@KalC, on form 8854, I made my best effort to list my total worth. As a dual, such might not have been required. 8854 and FBAR are pretty much the same thing. It would seem strange to be punished for reporting one’s assets! 8854 is a written requirement while FBAR is not. However, if one has a lot of money, then then the US gov could always use FBAR as an excuse for collection purposes and thus it is probably best to do the triple filing of the same data one last time.
@monalisa1776, no you don’t need to send them a copy of your CLN. They get notification from the State Department of all CLN’s issued.
@KalC, why would you not need to file a partial FBAR? That’s not what my tax preparer here in Switzerland thinks. I’ve got to do a partial filing and the 8854 next year for 2013. Of course, that may depend on how you’re doing your tax anyway. I’m on the Streamlined to get my back taxes up to date as I’d never filed any before.
Medea Because they won’t know what to do with it. They will have millions of these things coming in and no way to deal with all of them . File if it will make you feel better but it’s a waste of time.
@To all, does anyone know if there’s any way on the form to denote that it’s a partial-year Fbar? I’m inclined to at least file a final fear to avoid being hit with any fines for not filing it.
I could always ring their help line for clarification, though hate having to draw any further attention to myself. Perhaps the easiest thing is just to file it as normal and either list out all My account information for all of 2013 or just list it for the time I was still actually a US citizen.
The only thing that still concerns me is that until I’ve actually filed 8854, that they might still deem me a US tax person even though I already have the CLN…there is a strange window between receipt of the CLN and final filing that the IRS, as I understand that if I never filed 8854 that I would have to keep filing forever.
Ending US citizenship ends in several phases, it would seem. One really has to have one’s wits about her!!
@KalC, your consistency in suggesting that people relax about this stuff is generally welcome, but you take it too far to suggest not filing a final FBAR if compliant otherwise. The IRS has said in the past that this is what they require, so if you have been sending the wretched things in up to renouncing it is pretty silly to stop now. And as to the IRS not knowing what to do with it… yup, and they don’t know what to do with any of the others either so it’s all a waste of time for everyone, but still better filed. In fact, I would file purely because it wastes IRS time and manpower, and over time that will make it harder for the IRS to find any needles in their ever-burgeoning haystack.
@monalisa1776, the IRS has been too lazy, arrogant and uncaring to issue guidance for FBARs for renunciants — presumably in the belief that renunciants, like unicorns, are a myth — so email FBARquestions@irs.gov and BSAEfilinghelp@fincen.gov and ask them. It is their job to answer. You can easily mail them anonymously or get a friend to mail if you want to remain hidden (and I understand exactly why you would). In general, never ever volunteer any information to the IRS or FinCEN that you do not absolutely have to, and if you have to ‘explain’ anything, make it so terse that it only just covers the requirement.
The Calgary consulate website says they’re still open with the lapse in government:
Thanks, WhatAmI,
Useful information for all of us here and in the near future at Isaac Brock.
A bit more with regards to appointments in Calgary in case it’s useful:
Aug 29, I asked when the next available appoint was, and was told “there a few appointments left in December”.
Sep 4, my mother requested an appointment and was given December 12.
Sep 16, I requested a relinquishment appointment.
Sep 19, I was told I’d be contacted “shortly after Sep 30” with the next available appointment date.
Sep 30, I was offered an appointment for November 12, which I declined, since I don’t want to go until January.
I’m guessing there was a cancellation for November 12. I don’t have my appointment actual date and time yet.
Thank you for the information. This whole process is very scary.
This is probably a dumb question but I am going to ask anyway. I keep coming across this statement “Your average annual net income tax liability for the 5 tax years ending before the date of your expatriation is
more than the amount listed next….” Are they simply saying that your net income was higher than the amount indicated or are they talking about the amount of income tax that you were required to pay? Sorry it isn’t clear to me and it is a big part of the definition of being a covered expatriate.
Thank you.
@PO’d Yankee
That’s the amount of tax paid, not your total income.
I emailed the Calgary Consulate this morning for a meeting to notify them of my past relinquishment they responded this afternoon with the following date and time: Thursday, January 30th @ 08:30.